Cognatogen vs. Mutagen

[Strife2002]

So, the cognatogen discovery does the exact same thing as the mutagen class ability, except in reverse. Instead of "hulking out" at the expense of a mental ability scores, the alchemist instead "nerds it up" at the expense of a physical ability score. Everything about the two abilities is identical mechanically speaking except for one thing:

When the effects of the cognatogen wear off, the penalized physical ability score takes 2 points of damage. Mutagens don't have this extra detriment.

Is there some balancing reason for this I'm not seeing?

[blackbloodtroll]

Most of an Alchemist's abilities are tied to mental stats, so it is probably a balance decision.

[Mechalibur]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Most of an Alchemist's abilities are tied to mental stats, so it is probably a balance decision.

Eh... not really. Their spells aren't really affected by non-permanent stat bonuses (spell DCs don't come into affect, and you only get bonus spells if you had that bonus for 24 hours). Wisdom and Charisma don't do much except for will save, and maybe social interactions. Really all you're getting out of it in a combat situation is better bombs.

[Shadowdweller]

Mechalibur wrote:

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Most of an Alchemist's abilities are tied to mental stats, so it is probably a balance decision.

Eh... not really. Their spells aren't really affected by non-permanent stat bonuses (spell DCs don't come into affect, and you only get bonus spells if you had that bonus for 24 hours). Wisdom and Charisma don't do much except for will save, and maybe social interactions. Really all you're getting out of it in a combat situation is better bombs.

Spell DCs ARE affected by temporary bonuses. CRB pp. 554-555

The rules don't explicitly state that spell-like (/supernatural /extraordinary) ability DCs are affected by temporary bonuses but...the only circumstance in which THAT inane line of reasoning has any validity is one where Alchemists can't actually use extracts at all. Since they're listed as Alchemist "spells" in the Spells section of each supplement and Alchemists don't actually use spells.

[StreamOfTheSky]

I think he means that since most extracts will be buffs for the alchemist rather than offensive, save DC hardly matters. Yeah, they added the bomb admixture stuff, but that was in UC, after UM came out.

It is very odd that the cognatogen is more penalizing. Maybe they thought a caster would actually lose a CL in order to dip alchemist 1 for a 10 min. +2 buff to save DCs? Silly as that is.

[Shadowdweller]

StreamOfTheSky wrote:

I think he means that since most extracts will be buffs for the alchemist rather than offensive, save DC hardly matters. Yeah, they added the bomb admixture stuff, but that was in UC, after UM came out.

I expect so. But barring some (IMO) silly lines of reasoning, the ability bonus would also apply to bomb and splash weapon damage as part of the Alchemy and Throw Anything class abilities. My guess is that they thought long-term increases to splash weapon damage were either unbalancing (considering that it would thus stack with Fox's Cunning or permanent intelligence enhancers), or they just liked the flavor of it.

[TarkXT]

StreamOfTheSky wrote:

It is very odd that the cognatogen is more penalizing. Maybe they thought a caster would actually lose a CL in order to dip alchemist 1 for a 10 min. +2 buff to save DCs? Silly as that is.

And a few other things. Some extra class skills, more hp, a good boost to fort and reflex, a bomb ability that has extra damage tacked on based on said ability score (if Int based)and two bonus feats (Throw Anything and Brew Potion).

Not a bad dip at all.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Does it advance their caster level?

No?

Ok then.

[Corlindale]

I agree that the penalty seems a bit odd - also because it is no real drawback at higher levels, merely an annoyance.

I guess they might be thinking of bomb save dcs. A mindchemist can pump save dcs of his save or suck bombs much more easily than a wizard pumps his spells, and this could be a big deal at higher levels. Still not enough to merit the difference, though.

[TarkXT]

StreamOfTheSky wrote:

Does it advance their caster level?

No?

Ok then.

Does one caster level matter that much to everyone?

No?

Alrighty then.

Snarky responses aside the only thing it really slows down is when you get your spells. This matters, of course, but some people are more than happy to trade a level for the extra survivability and higher spell/ability dc that the alchemist can offer.