Goblin Squad Member
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It never even occurred to me that they wouldn't let them stack.
If they didn't let them stack, a griefer could just get a friend to place a piddling bounty on him, and then go about his greifing business free from any consequences.
I expect they'll stack just fine.
However, your question raised another one for me: If there are three bounties on a murderer, and a single character is eligible for all three, does he get to kill the murderer three times to collect them? Or does he get all three rewards immediately upon the first kill. Consider what would happen if each bounty had been assigned to different groups - in this case, the murderer would have to be killed three times in order for the bounties to all be collected.
I think it's going to be important to ensure that the murderer is killed again for each bounty placed.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Keep in mind that the bounty system only works in areas where law is enforced. If you're walking through the wrong forest, you simply won't be able to place any bounties at all (at least officially) on ol' RJ.
Are you sure? I never read it that way, but just went back and re-read it and it's not 100% clear either way.
When you are murdered—that is, killed unlawfully—you will have the option to place a bounty on your killer's head.
Can Ryan or Vic let us know whether it's possible to place a bounty on someone who murders you in the wilderness? Or is it not considered murder if there's not a settlement to create a law against it?
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Goblin Squad Member
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From the blog:
When you are murdered—that is, killed unlawfully—you will have the option to place a bounty on your killer's head.And does the system distinguish between regions to determine what lawfully is? Well let's just look at another quote from the blog to answer that as well:
Bounties can only be issued when a character unlawfully kills another. Killing an opponent as a part of a declared war, or in an area that does not have laws against murder, will not trigger the bounty system.Gasp! why would they do that. Well, lucky for us, they explain their intent. Also in the blog.
The intent is to deter characters from arbitrarily attacking and killing others simply for fun. Of course, those who simply wish to avoid any PvP at all will choose to remain within the very high security zones close to NPC settlements where PvP is effectively impossible. Such players will have fewer opportunities to find adventure or to earn treasure than their braver and less risk-averse peers, but they'll be safe from griefers.
Are you still not reading it that way? Still need some clarification?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Keep in mind that the bounty system only works in areas where law is enforced. If you're walking through the wrong forest, you simply won't be able to place any bounties at all (at least officially) on ol' RJ.Why shouldn't a griffer be hunted down no matter where they are? I didn't think it relied on NPCs to enforce bounties just Pc interaction.
As they explain in the blog, it's part of the risk vs reward factor. Part of the idea of a sandbox mmo is that the system, as well as players create the content. That means the dangers too. they just want to manage it in a way that it doesn't get too out of hand.
Having said that, this system does not stop you from placing informal bounties on players by communicating with your friends and acquaintances. But then that goes both ways. Even with an official bounty, expect people to be vindictive.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Bounties can only be issued when a character unlawfully kills another. Killing an opponent as a part of a declared war, or in an area that does not have laws against murder, will not trigger the bounty system.
That was all you needed to say, but the snark was also appreciated...
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Goblin Squad Member
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There will of course be plenty of players who will want to be nanny-sitted everywhere they go and find the idea of unrestrained PvP in any areas of the game abhorrent.
I fully expect to see characters and even entire guilds being built with this in mind: taking informal bounties on legal kills. This of course won't work through the official/automatic bounty system, so you'll have to rely on the honesty of the person issuing the bounty to actually pay it, as well as those collecting it, or at least the ability for them to give some kind of proof of kill.
An informal system would get interesting though, as any kills made in a lawful area can result in lawful bounties being immediately thrown on the bounty chaser. I also foresee such a system leading to negotiating payments to drop a bounty, not to mention all kinds of drama over people accusing others who have paid of not having paid, of people lying about kills, revenge, revenge, and more revenge...
Good! Use your aggressive feelings, let the hate flow through you!
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Goblin Squad Member
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Rafkin, you make a good point. How indeed can someone expect true and proper justice?
Fortunately for you, and those who share your concerns, there are individuals out there who have chosen to take matters into their own hands.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Well, since the bounty will only be collectable by certain people, defined by the person who set the bounty, presumably there wont be a lot of fraudulent collections going on. If a collector starts splitting the take with the mark, then I'm sure there will be vigilante justice meted out by legitimate bounty hunters.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Rafkin, the bounty system isn't intended to deter "just killing people for fun", it's just supposed to deter murdering people in civilized areas. Looking at Hideouts from the latest blog, it's clear that PFO is actually intended to encourage killing other players for fun and profit. Personally, I've already made my peace with this, but I am extremely sympathetic to those who are still struggling with it.
From my perspective, the way to deal with this is to join up with others who share your interests and provide mutual protection and benefit.
I'm a Founding Member of The Seventh Veil.
You may also be interested in The Vanguard, or one of the guilds mentioned in this thread.
There will be plenty of choices, I'm sure.
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Goblin Squad Member
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my only problem with a bounty system to "invoke law" is that it is always the victim that has to pay. and the bounty hunter is the only one thats profiting.
the murderer wont lose much as you wont run around with valuables in your backpack if you are PKing and a bounty is on your head.
As you never lose what you have equipped the only one who loses is the robbed/murdered trader/crafter/harvester with the big inventory. Who now has to lose even more money to pay for a bounty.
Many will just say f*** that, i lost enough already and safe the bounty money.
Or everybody wants to be a BountyHunter...
I half agree and half disagree with that idea. A PKer isn't likely to get far staying purely PK focused 24/7. While I admit we know nothing of the focus of many parts of the game, I would imagine PK itself as a semi-costly endevor. Even if you don't lose your gear on death, I am 80% sure there will be some wear and tear/upkeep on gear, and I imagine PKing itself is very random rewards, sure once in a while you get lucky and catch someone hauling back a huge supply of rare materials, but half the time either the target is just traveling with little on hand yet, or is collecting something insignificant, or has a strong enterage that will clobber you etc... As a result, it's like a jackpot, quit while you are ahead 9 times out of 10.
Really though what I imagine is going to be the main rarity, is PK in lawful zones at all, the best rewards are going to be in the untamed wilderness, since few people are going to be confident to carry goods for very long after obtaining them, a smart PKer, will focus on near the source, away from marshals or bounties, thus rendering the bounty system as a fairly rare tool, probably more for the purpose of flagging bottom feeder greifers.
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Goblin Squad Member
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my only problem with a bounty system to "invoke law" is that it is always the victim that has to pay. and the bounty hunter is the only one thats profiting.
I imagine there will be some enterprising players who come up with a reasonable way to insure against loss. You pay me a nominal premium and I agree to escort you and your cargo from point A to point B. I guarantee safe arrival, or I pay you what you think your cargo is worth, probably somewhere between 10 and 20 times the fee you've paid me. I profit because most of the time I pocket the fee without even having to fight. You profit by not having to shoulder the risk of total loss.
Of course, I guarantee there will be players who pay 100 gold to insure absolutely nothing, and then collude to try to get their actually worthless cargo stolen so they can collect the payout. As soon as there's insurance in PFO, there will be insurance fraud. Even if the insurers are allowed to appraise the cargo first, there will still be those who collude by insuring valuable cargo, all the while knowing the thieves will actually return it so they'll get to keep the cargo and the insurance payout.
I expect the most prudent course of action in that regard is have powerful characters shadow the insured caravan and only take action when absolutely necessary. This will make it very hard for thieves to gauge the effectiveness of the caravan guards, and makes it a risky proposition for them to attack.
However, it remains true, even with all of that, that the thieves themselves are in a very good position to minimize their own risk, such that even if they're killed, they suffer no real loss. I'm not sure what can be done to change that side of the equation.
Chief Technical Officer
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...they can just take off all their gear and have a guildmate kill them to clear the bounty.
The blog on bounties made it very clear that that's not possible.
Read the paragraphs beginning with "There have been attempts at bounty systems in many MMOs in the past, and they tend to have the same problem: If I put a reward on your character's head, you can arrange for one of your friends to kill your character, and you then split the reward with your friend."
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Goblin Squad Member
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"not possible"...
If I have a friend in the guild you select to collect the bounty, then DING, it just became possible.
In fact, it makes a solid case for multiple assassins and bounty hunter guilds forming alliances, or bandit guilds to form alliances with assassins or bounty hunters. And the fact that it's doing something that's "not possible" is just icing on the cake.
And the more a victim tries to work around that, the more specific and less general they make who can collect on a bounty, the harder it is going to be to see that bounty actually collected, and the more they're likely going to have to pay to see it done.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Blaeringr, the whole point is that the system being designed makes it possible for the victim to make it "not possible" for one of his killer's friends to collect the bounty.
And I didn't miss that, but thank you.
My point is that if they do it like they say, in the very paragraph Vic Wertz referenced, then they are failing to do what they say they are doing.
They are certainly setting up an obstacle, but hardly one that is insurmountable. Yes, there will frequently be bounties that will be designated to people to collect them who will do it with the proper intentions. But how the heck is my victim going to know who my friends are? How is he going to know that he didn't just designate one of them as an approved collector? Friend lets me know, and it's all bread from there.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Blaeringr, the whole point is that the system being designed makes it possible for the victim to make it "not possible" for one of his killer's friends to collect the bounty.And I didn't miss that, but thank you.
My point is that if they do it like they say, in the very paragraph Vic Wertz referenced, then they are failing to do what they say they are doing.
They are certainly setting up an obstacle, but hardly one that is insurmountable. Yes, there will frequently be bounties that will be designated to people to collect them who will do it with the proper intentions. But how the heck is my victim going to know who my friends are? How is he going to know that he didn't just designate one of them as an approved collector? Friend lets me know, and it's all bread from there.
Information gets out in an MMO, if a bounty hunter guild is caught working with a bandit guild, word will get out very fast, and people will stop including that BH guild in their bounties. Either way I think the whole thing is a moot point, I honestly can't see the issue coming up that much. Lawful territory will be patrolled by marshals, as well as have players carrying the least amount of good valubles. Essentially for a PKer, that is the highest possible risk (also noting that in addition to the bounty they will be flagged a criminal, and basically have a free bulseye on their heads for all PCs and NPCs in the area, and the lowest possible reward considering killing people carrying cheap scrap metal, only awards, scrap metal.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Onishi you are very right. People who want to PK are going to try to do so in the "safest" areas for them personally to do so. In other words, lawless areas. My point was not to say that it will be really common, but merely a criticism of the statement that it will not be possible.
Doesn't have to be a guild alliance though, or anything so big and ongoing. Take the following example:
Dear Hunted,
I don't know you, and you don't know me, but you made somebody really angry. This unnamed player has issued a decent bounty on your head, and has sworn to re-issue it several times. It's a decent amount, but not enough for me to really go out of my way to collect.
So here's my proposal to you:
You store all your valuables somewhere safe, then come to the old oak tree just West of Thornkeep in 15 minutes. I kill you a few times, you lose no valuables, I make money, and you relieve yourself of an unpleasant bounty. In exchange for your time and trouble, I offer you one of two things: 1) 15% of the bounty I receive for you, or 2) the name of the character issuing the bounty so you can pursue your revenge.
If I go back on our deal afterwards, then I have to worry about a player killer spreading an informal bounty on my head. So you can see it's in my own interest to deal honestly with you.
Yes, word may indeed get around. It probably will if something like this goes on a lot. But if I'm not even really a bounty hunter, and my guild has been given a bounty opportunity, it's a nice little temptation to handle it like this, make a quick buck, and get on with my other adventures.
But as you said: only an issue if the killing is going on in lawful territory. If it's in lawless territory, that's when you contact me, and I'll let my associates know that an un-official bounty on the thorn in your side. :D
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Goblin Squad Member
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... the bounty cant stay on forever, or the murderer would have no chance to get away with a plus something in the long run.
It's also important to keep in mind that there will be characters who run around with bounties on their heads where those bounties are never collected. In fact, I imagine this will be a source of pride for some players.
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Chief Technical Officer
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My point is that if they do it like they say, in the very paragraph Vic Wertz referenced, then they are failing to do what they say they are doing.
I said "read the paragraphs beginning with..."
We addressed your concern in the following paragraph:
We fully expect that there will be characters who become specialized bounty hunters, tracking down and redeeming bounties and earning acclaim (which will translate into more commissioned bounties). These characters would never want their reputations besmirched by the idea that they'd be splitting the bounties with the targets, so the social reputation of these characters will dictate how successful they are at this role. Furthermore, we expect that some players will form bounty-hunting organizations, and those organizations will also need to maintain scrupulous reputations as agents of vengeance rather than agents of collaboration.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I still don't see any negatives for the person with the bounty on their head. They run the risk of getting jumped by a bounty hunter? If they have a bounty then they probably engage in pvp frequently and would welcome a fight with the bounty hunter anyway...even with no bounty.
The bounty system is giving a player that enjoys pvp more opportunities to pvp. Actually you're making it easier because now people will actively come hunting him.
If i get murdered my best form of revenge is to refuse to put a bounty on the guy.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Since it looks like I'm complaining a lot i should state that i am not a fan of pvp so I'm automatically thinking of the worst possible situations.
A lot of people do enjoy pvp and its probably an excellent system for them with a little bonus for the roleplayers and adds flavor to the game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I still don't see any negatives for the person with the bounty on their head. They run the risk of getting jumped by a bounty hunter? If they have a bounty then they probably engage in pvp frequently and would welcome a fight with the bounty hunter anyway...even with no bounty.
The bounty system is giving a player that enjoys pvp more opportunities to pvp. Actually you're making it easier because now people will actively come hunting him.
If i get murdered my best form of revenge is to refuse to put a bounty on the guy.
Well I still see it as the bottom line, even people who love PVP will not get the best rewards/time constantly fighting considering they will only get a fraction of the goods the person is carrying that trip, the gain from killing a harvester, is say 1/4th-1/2 (as always, numbers are random guesses) of what the harvester would have gained in the same time had he not been killed.
In the end that PKer is going to need to gather resources or items himself, and that is when he will be ripe for the pickings of an oprotunistic bounty hunter. (afterall why just go for a bounty, when you can get a bounty + free resources).
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Goblin Squad Member
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But the PKer doesn't sit around the whole time the gatherer is gathering. It just takes a minute to kill and take (even if just a percentage) of what the gatherer has spent hours gathering. Even at a percentage the PKer comes out ahead. And when there are no gatherers around, he's going to be looting NPCs and finding little dungeons here and there.
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Goblin Squad Member
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And don't forget that both the bounty hunter and his target have something to lose. The bounty hunter's prey, if they are smart, will make sure that collecting the bounty on their heads will not be worth the effort, or will seriously endanger them if it is.
This often involves working in a reliable team, staying far from society, leading the bounty hunter into traps, etc. etc.
The bounty hunter's job is to try and overcome all these obstacles. It's a classic game of cat & mouse.
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Goblin Squad Member
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But the PKer doesn't sit around the whole time the gatherer is gathering. It just takes a minute to kill and take (even if just a percentage) of what the gatherer has spent hours gathering. Even at a percentage the PKer comes out ahead. And when there are no gatherers around, he's going to be looting NPCs and finding little dungeons here and there.
I beg to differ, he is going to be spending hours finding a harvester ripe to attack. Harvesting hazards on their own means that most harvesters are either going to need to be decent combatants, or be traveling with decent combatants. A lone PKer will need quite a bit of skill and luck to actually find a harvester that is ripe for attacking. Also there is no real indication of the timeframe yet of how long it will take to fill ones inventory with harvested goods. We could be talking 15-20 minutes, we don't really know.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Your assumptions make sense for dangerous areas, far from towns. What about short trips, close to towns that are supposed to be safer, particularly monster-wise?
Considering the topic was about bounties, which situation fits better?
A lone harvester with a false sense of security wandering close to town and alone and harvesting crosses paths with a player who was doing something else and decides to act on the opportunity and gank the harvester. That's a situation that can result in a bounty. The harvester is not the center of the PKer's universe. He enjoys mugging other players, but sitting there for hours, doing nothing but waiting for each target, is a very unrealistic picture.
And if it's an expedition into more dangerous territory, and the PKers are more organized and taking on bigger groups of players...well that doesn't even fit the topic since we're talking about bounties. But if that does happen, you can talk to me about it ;)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Your assumptions make sense for dangerous areas, far from towns. What about short trips, close to towns that are supposed to be safer, particularly monster-wise?
Considering the topic was about bounties, which situation fits better?
A lone harvester with a false sense of security wandering close to town and alone and harvesting crosses paths with a player who was doing something else and decides to act on the opportunity and gank the harvester. That's a situation that can result in a bounty. The harvester is not the center of the PKer's universe. He enjoys mugging other players, but sitting there for hours, doing nothing but waiting for each target, is a very unrealistic picture.
And if it's an expedition into more dangerous territory, and the PKers are more organized and taking on bigger groups of players...well that doesn't even fit the topic since we're talking about bounties. But if that does happen, you can talk to me about it ;)
Well a harvester close to town, is likely to also be an extremely low reward kill. In addition to the harvester himself being one who makes little gains/time, he also is going to be one who has the least incentive to be out there for long between stashings. If someone is 2 minutes from town, and only drops back to store his goods once every 3 hours.... than he unnecessarally submitted himself to a huge risk for no logical reason. In addition the PKer himself is in higher danger after his first kill because after his first kill, he is criminally flagged, in danger of being attacked by marshals as well as players (and he's right near a hub of Iomedae knows how many players) etc...
The way I see it, kills in lawful areas, are very unlikely to be repeat offenses, and if the same person does it too many times, he will rapidly become kill on sight for both players and the marshals, the marshals having perfect tracking and unbeatable root abilities.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I have a feeling PKing will be not nearly as bad as people are inflating it.
The benefits are, as Ryan said, a lottery. And he also said that very important items will be re-animated with you. Which is something i think should be in the game. A epic item that took hours to obtain, should not be obtainable through killing another player. Camping outside of a high end area shouldn't be a legitimate way of obtaining what is inside.
Getting all the criminal disadvantages far outweighs the few items you will get from the person. Unless you are a sadist and just want to ruin someones day.
The biggest contributors to griefing in MMO's with Open PvP are the people who can't compete at their level('baddies'), so they go attack low level players to vent their frustration. The real PvP players are out in designated PvP-OK zones, the bounty/criminal system effectively eliminates the threat from 'baddies'.
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Goblin Squad Member
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A harvester close to town is higher reward for the guy who stopped what he was doing and took a minute to kill him than it is to spend the hour or so harvesting. If the reward isn't high enough, then the harvester himself is wasting his time.
Well considering in territory that is considered high security it is a 100% chance of getting killed by the guards, in territory that is low security it is probably only a 50/60% chance of getting killed by guards. the person is close to town so he can likely take the items back every 15 mins or so. The attacker will be gaining roughly what the person gains every 5 minutes, in exchange from being barred from the town and area near town, also now has no fast travel etc...
Longterm also if he makes a habit of killing in lawful territory, he runs the risk of permanently being labeled a criminal, and becoming unable to re-enter lawful land.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The system has a certain elegance to it, as every party involved shares an element of risk.
The PK'er risks a possible low yield if he picks the wrong target or is just plain unlucky in what he earns from the kill. If he picks the wrong target he can all earn a long and sustained period of attention from bounty hunters which can lead to all sorts of issues.
The Victim has already lost something in time and resources in just getting themselves killed, and risks further resource losses by hiring a bounty hunter who may or may not turn out to actually be on his side.
And the Bounty Hunter risks taking on a job that not only feeds him into some arch-pker's personal meat grinder, but a reputation hit if he/she gets labelled as someone who 'cannot get the job done.'
However all three also share elements of reward.
The victim has the potential rewards of the resource gathering process in the first place and careful planning and caution can lead to many successful runs. This can be doubly so if in the process they successfully fend off a PK'er during this time. However even if they are killed, they can enjoy the satisfaction of making said PK'ers ongoing life very difficult indeed.
The PK'er of course earns immediate loot from a successful kill and the satisfaction of a 'hit' well done. They also gain reputation in the killer circles, which players embarking on such a career often crave. The following survival game of dodging and killing bounty hunters, if successfully done can also enhance their reputation.
And finally the Bounty Hunter has the thrill of the hunt, and possibly some tangible rewards in Bounties to take home. They also will get a good reputation if they are successful.
So really, whilst its possible to paint all kinds of doomsday scenarios, the system rewards clever play in any of the three roles and I heartily endorse such a thing. There is no shame in being bested, indeed any player long term will have numerous successes and failures on the path to the top. Losing to top notch play is, in an odd way, a reward itself as you are exposed to just how it is done up close, and is an opportunity to learn from it. Eve Online is partly famous/infamous for its grand larcenies and crazy schemes that skilled players have performed over the years. I cannot help but think that while some people look at such a system and be daunted, what they should be focusing on is the chance to become better for the experience. It's ultimately one of the selling points of how games like this should, and do, work.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think a lot of this depends on how Laws get implemented in player-controlled areas.
Blaeringr is absolutely right (and it's scary to see how much he's thought this through) about the likely scenarios. The other side of the coin is the fact that a PKer with a bounty on his head is a legal kill anywhere. Hopefully, the game will have some way of showing us when another character is encumbered with lots of stuff, and give Bounty Hunters the option of hitting their mark when it's actually going to hurt. Of course, it would be nice if the Bounty itself created the incentive for the Bounty Hunter to wait until the mark would lose the most.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You bring up a point I spent a lot of time thinking about yesterday: a bounty makes it a legal kill anywhere.
Now we add to that the fact that I can designated whomever I want to collect the bounty, so let's say I pick just one single person: a friend of mine. This friend of mine is the kind of guy who will giggle himself silly at the thought of being able to kill someone legally in town, so he's not really in it for the bounty.
Then we add the fact that a bounty can be re-issued ad nauseum. I make the bounty a single copper piece each time. My friend goes for it anyways, since he's just in it for the giggles.
What we get is a scenario where even a poor player can keep a bounty going pretty much forever. He just needs to find a way to make a single copper piece within the time it takes his buddy to find and kill the guy with the bounty. He can do this over and over. The "criminal" will never feel completely safe entering a town ever again.
When my friend gets bored of hunting him, I simply re-issue the bounty a final time with a higher price and be on my way.
Something else I was wondering is: can the guy who has a bounty on his head legally fight back if attacked in town? If he kills the bounty hunter, does he just end up with an additional bounty on his head as well as get attacked by the guards? Even if he's already been punished 100 times for his crime already?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Blaeringr is absolutely right (and it's scary to see how much he's thought this through) about the likely scenarios.
He's missed (or just not mentioned) some good ones though. Targeted Bounties. Player A sacrifices his low level alt to a big PK'er and then posts an 'almost too good to be true' bounty aimed a specific hunter/hunter group.
It's how PK'ers then get that annoying Bounty Hunter to come to you. ;)
Or the 'victims' can set up 'surprisingly tempting targets' to lure a PK'er into a mistake that leads to 6 months of bounties on their heads.
There are ways to make plays in every direction you can think of, that's why it's fun. :) (Well to me anyway, apologies to anyone who finds machiavellian plotting and power games to be no fun.)
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Goblin Squad Member
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As fun as it is to think about all this though, it's really not my goal to go around harassing people.
The thing about an assassins' guild is that you can't run one that functions in a purely parasitical manner. You have to find some kind of balance for a more symbiotic relationship. You have to be providing a service that enough people want so that they'll dislike you, but not hate you enough to band together and go after you. Some may even come to admire good assassins.
To sum it up, a good assassins' guild is a scalpel, not a blunt hammer smashing everything it sees.
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Goblin Squad Member
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As fun as it is to think about all this though, it's really not my goal to go around harassing people.
Nor mine :)
My point is that in a lot of these scenarios people see only the potential of themselves as victims to forces beyond their control, when in fact they have a lot more cards to play then they realise.
Some of those cards may even involve assassins ;)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Indeed. Another thing I was thinking about was how to handle people who hire assassins, but then neglect to pay after the deal is done...
I figure the guild should have two lists: list a) is the list of regular contracts. List b) is the naughty list. You really don't want to be on that list. It entails beating repayment out of the offender, with interest and late fees and interest on the late fees. And it is a list of guilt by association, so the offender's guild is notified that if they don't boot him within 24 hours, then their whole guild becomes targets to kill and loot to work on that repayment.
Too much?
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Blaeringr, if you're prepared to declare war on an entire Company because of the actions of one character, you should probably be prepared to have some kind of adjudication procedure where you attempt to establish that character's guilt. I would be sorely disappointed if my Company booted someone just on an assassin's say-so.