Unlike the last one, where I more or less plunked my junk on the table and had everyone scratch their heads wondering what I was up to and what kind of insane I am for even trying. This time I've got a project that last night in a fever dream brought on by bad tomatoes I think I figured out.
Here goes.
Challenge #2: Making Sense of Power Cooldowns
I've always been one of those DMs who hated the idea "you just can't." Way back in the days of 2nd edition I was frustrated by rules that said that nobody but rogues could try and hide, or open a lock. In 3rd edition I devoted myself to esoteric bits of goodness like why a wizard could only prepare so many spells each day--and what would happen if he tried to prepare too many. I've always liked the idea that the parameters aren't uncrossable barriers, but are the natural limits encouraged and propetuated by folks who do this sort of thing. That there's good reasons why you shouldn't cross the line, but since it's a roleplaying game and not a video game, that trying shouldn't cause a loud buzz from your controller. It should probably just not be a great idea.
So I'd been rolling around in my head why the daily and encounter powers are only usable once per whatever. I tinkered out a quick list of possible reasons why along with an effect that would come from trying again too soon. See what you think.
Exersion: Some abilities are just draining
Brute Strike is a good example of this. You really power up and ring the badguy's gong for three times the normal output of your weapon. This hurts to do. Afterwards you're a little screwed up from it. You really should rest up before you fight again after doing this kind of crazy stuff. You might need medical attention. The first time you use your encounter or daily ability of this type, it works fine. Use it again and you suffer the following.
Encounter-You're dazed from the exersion and take -2 on all subsequent attack and damage rolls. This is cumulative, in case you're crazy enough to do that again. A healing surge will recover the dazed effect, but to get rid of the penalty you need to end the encounter and take a short rest.
Daily-You're dazed from the exersion, lose a space of movement and take -5 to subsequent attack and damage rolls. Again this is cumulative. You need an extended rest. If you use the ability another time before you get some rest you will need healing in addition to rest in order to recover your abilities.
One Trick Ponies: Some tricks folks only fall for once
Warlord's Favor is a great example of this. You basically hit the guy hard in just the right spot to turn his guard away for a second, and an ally rushes in and takes advantage of the weak spot to hit him. Presumably if this guy recovers from this combo he's going to be looking out for you to do that to him again. He's going to wait for it, and if you try--he's gonna' get his on you for trying to make a fool of him. Again, the first time you use this kind of power, no problem. Try again before it cools down and you take this effect.
Encounter-The save against your power is increased by 2. This effect is cumulative. If you miss while under this effect, the target gets a free counterattack is granted combat advantage over you.
Daily-The save increased by 5 for each use.
Pushing Your Limits: Some abilities can burn out your powers
Curse of the Dark Dream works here. You suck the badguy into your darkest dream. He goes for fun-fun time in Silent Hill. Eeek. Suffice it to say that as a warlock or a wizard your abilities are contingient on some things. This kind of power is dangerous and unstable. Take it for granted or use it to excess and the results can be unfortunate. Other times it is simply your patrons, whether gods, fae courts, or the blasphemies beyond time wish to teach you a lesson to punish your hubris.
Encounter-All of your powers have their numerical values halved (whether healing, damage, protection or whatever)
Daily-Same as above, but in addition the character must roll against an ongoing effect. If he fails a number of rolls equal to his Con modifier, he erupts in a blast 5 of energy appropriate to his class doing his level in d6s of damage to everyone in the radius. He takes double.
Wow - your down for the work involved in defining every power in the book like this? That kind of frightens me.
Having just fought a dragon yesterday I don't think I'd be willing to accept a penalty for most things except in very extreme circumstances (I know that the next good hit takes the BBEG out due to metagaming since I have a good idea what their hps are from when they went bloodied.
That sort of makes me wonder why you'd go through all this trouble if its very rarely going to get used. Still I suppose you could just add these rules and make a specific ruling about which condition a powerful falls under if a player decides to go for it and use the power more often then normally allowed.
Blarg no. Yeah, I'm really not about to come up with one of these for every power in the whole book. I figure keeping it to a few genres of powers is the key. I couldn't really see one overarching reason for why powers only work so often, but...well I had some time to roll it over, and it seemed like most powers pretty much fell into one of the above genres. Hopefully they're enough, but if there are outliers I can come up with more genres.
I guess the idea is rather than come up with a reason for every power, I wanted to come up with a reason for every KIND of power.
That said, I think what you're looking at is exactly what makes me love this idea so much. Instead of people just looking at their character sheet and going "Nuts, I'm out of dailies" they get to scratching their chins and wondering if one more fireball is worth going up in a whomph of flame. Heck, maybe somebody might even use their last round before they go off like a groundflower to run into the enemy lines and torch them. I like that kind of extra texture to my games much better than dry ticking off of boxes.
Not too shoddy, but you may want to tighten up the mechanics some.
I'd suggest making the Daze effect from the Exertion category (save ends), since being Dazed for the rest of the encounter would REALLY suck. I mean, seriously, you're guy is essentially out for the count at that point.
For the third one, you might want to reword the Daily penalty. I'm not sure precisely what you want the odds to be here. 50/50 chance of going up in flames? What happens if there is no ongoing affect to roll against? Better to just give it a % and let it fly (if you want it less predictable, make the % chance vary ... roll the chance of going up, then roll against that ... it's crazy!) :)
Now these are some quality house rules!
When I first read about the At-will/Encounter/Daily power division, I immediatly saw the justification for them. At Will is something that always works in combat, because it's so basic, Encoutner powers are stuff that only fool the enemy once, or there's only one oppertunity in a combat to use that kind of manuver, and the daily powers were so straining or hard to set up that you had to rest before doing it again.
Now, you've given some very cool mechanics for how to model this feel into the game without having to just say "Sorry, you can't do that again. To tired/won't work."
Wow - your down for the work involved in defining every power in the book like this? That kind of frightens me.
I think the best way to do this would be to define it by class. Say, the fighter's encounter powers are tricks which only work once on a enemey, while his daily powers pull muscles.
But a warlock's powers would fatigue the caster for encounter powers, but cause a backlash for daily powers.
You could theme them based upon how and where the power comes from.
I quite like Grimcleaver, thanks!
I'd suggest making the Daze effect from the Exertion category (save ends), since being Dazed for the rest of the encounter would REALLY suck. I mean, seriously, you're guy is essentially out for the count at that point.
From my read, being dazed just means you lose one of your two actions per round. You can fight or move, but not both. Besides, at encounter level you can spend a healing surge and it goes away. It feels flavorful, but not too overwhelming for my tastes at least.
For the third one, you might want to reword the Daily penalty. I'm not sure precisely what you want the odds to be here. 50/50 chance of going up in flames? What happens if there is no ongoing affect to roll against? Better to just give it a % and let it fly (if you want it less predictable, make the % chance vary ... roll the chance of going up, then roll against that ... it's crazy!) :)
Yeah as I think about that, average Con mods are pretty lowball numbers. Having a number of failed saves equal to 3+/- your Con mod is more what I had in mind I guess. You fail something like 3-8 50% saves in a row based on how tough you are and kablooie. That said, the eruption of magical energy isn't meant to kill anyone so much as really mess them up. 2-12 damage for the caster, 1-6 for everyone else (at first level, where folks have around 30 hp). I describe it as blowing up, but really in my head I just see it as losing control of a big blast of unfocused magical energy that lashes out in a big burst and fries everyone a bit.
Yeah, but seriously while I've got a pretty good idea about how the mechanics for these things work I acknowledge they could use some tightening up and rewriting. I think the core ideas are fun though and I'm glad people are liking them.
From my read, being dazed just means you lose one of your two actions per round. You can fight or move, but not both. Besides, at encounter level you can spend a healing surge and it goes away. It feels flavorful, but not too overwhelming for my tastes at least.
You only get one Standard action. This means you lose your Move and your Minor, if I remember correctly, and you give Combat Advantage to everyone. Don't let me dissuade you if you don't agree ... I'm just saying it's strong. Anyone who didn't spend a Healing Surge to get rid of the affect is really playing it risky (which, to a certain extent, is what you're aiming for here, I suppose)
Yeah as I think about that, average Con mods are pretty lowball numbers. Having a number of failed saves equal to 3+/- your Con mod is more what I had in mind I guess. You fail something like 3-8 50% saves in a row based on how tough you are and kablooie. That said, the eruption of magical energy isn't meant to kill anyone so much as really mess them up. 2-12 damage for the caster, 1-6 for everyone else (at first level, where folks have around 30 hp). I describe it as blowing up, but really in my head I just see it as losing control of a big blast of unfocused magical energy that lashes out in a big burst and fries everyone a bit.Yeah, but seriously while I've got a pretty good idea about how the mechanics for these things work I acknowledge they could use some tightening up and rewriting. I think the core ideas are fun though and I'm glad people are liking them.
I do like them, I'm posting to help you clean them up. Although I understand if my ideas on a better mechanical depiction for them differ from yours. :)
That said, one thing to think of is that a Wizard will be gaining only 4 HP per level. So a 1st level guy blowing up will have good odds on surviving, a higher level one will have good odds on instantly dying. Something to think on.
To firm up what you're planning for this, I'd roll my Con mod d20s, and if all of them are lower than 10, I explode? Seems like Con would definitely become useful to classes that have this extension mechanic ...
I do like them, I'm posting to help you clean them up. Although I understand if my ideas on a better mechanical depiction for them differ from yours. :)
Totally. And I really do appreciate the help. The idea here is only partly show and tell. Getting the mechanics cleaned up is a big part of this too! Thanks.
You only get one Standard action. This means you lose your Move and your Minor, if I remember correctly, and you give Combat Advantage to everyone.
Ick. Yeah, that's definitely more than I want. Really I'm looking for a status that already exists in the game that reflects being tired and beat up. Slowed maybe? Eh. The hope would be to use something that exists, but there ain't much to choose from yet. The hope is something that's a genuine tactical detriment in play rather than a bland HP loss and makes the character play like he's hurt himself.
To firm up what you're planning for this, I'd roll my Con mod d20s, and if all of them are lower than 10, I explode? Seems like Con would definitely become useful to classes that have this extension mechanic ... That said, one thing to think of is that a Wizard will be gaining only 4 HP per level. So a 1st level guy blowing up will have good odds on surviving, a higher level one will have good odds on instantly dying. Something to think on.
Well one per round, just like a disease or whatever. Example: say your
Con mod is 1+3 which gives you four rounds before you cook off. So you roll at the start of each round. If you succeed, the effect ends. If you fail then there's no other effect other than ticking off one of the rounds on your timer. So forth until either you save and end the effect or BOOM. So the Con+3 thing just sets the timer so to speak, otherwise it works just like a disease or petrification.But yeah, I hadn't figured on the hit point totals diminishing as characters level up. By 30 levels 2[30d6] of damage against someone with 150 hit points seems like a lot. Too much really. I'd like the boom to be bigger as the spells get bigger, which level roughly translates to--and I'd like the damage to be significant.
But yeah the hope is certainly not to drop PCs in one shot with this. It's a detriment of overextending yourself, hopefully not a one-way ticket to deadville.
Not exactly my cup of tea, but I will try to provide some constructive criticism.
My first thought is that this nerfs some abilities and makes others more powerful. Essentially, some abilities no longer work as written and you suffer penalties for using them. Some you get to use more than once. Sure, there is a chance bad things happen but there is also a chance it doesn’t. If you have one of those lucky players in your group, this may soon become a thorn in your side.
I guess what I am saying is that the first use should work exactly as written and additional uses should have consequences. It seems you have done this with most of them.
Something else just occurred to me, what about swapping a Daily for an Encounter?
My first thought is that this nerfs some abilities and makes others more powerful. Essentially, some abilities no longer work as written and you suffer penalties for using them. Some you get to use more than once. Sure, there is a chance bad things happen but there is also a chance it doesn’t. If you have one of those lucky players in your group, this may soon become a thorn in your side.
Yeah the hope here is to give people the chance to skate the edge and gamble. If they can use it multiple times, dare the consequenses and come out of it okay, then you get drama and excitement as well as rules that better reflect the conventional wisdom. Can you swim less than 30 minutes after you eat a big dinner? What if your neighbor's kid falls in the river? That sort of thing. There's reasons why. You'll discover that as the stomach cramps kick in, but sometimes heroes have to take the consequences. Just saying "you ate 23 minutes ago and cannot make a swim attempt for 7 more minutes" just doesn't do it for me. I like consequences.
I guess what I am saying is that the first use should work exactly as written and additional uses should have consequences. It seems you have done this with most of them.
Yeah, my guiding star here is that working within the structure of the RAW game, nothing changes. You can still use encounter powers per encounter and dailies per day with no change. The houserules simply add a "what if" in case people want to test their limits.
Something else just occurred to me, what about swapping a Daily for an Encounter?
Not sure what you mean here. I guess powers function as what they are. If something was once a daily and becomes encounter, than its new penalty would be the encounter penalty. At least that's my thinking so far.
Ick. Yeah, that's definitely more than I want. Really I'm looking for a status that already exists in the game that reflects being tired and beat up. Slowed maybe? Eh. The hope would be to use something that exists, but there ain't much to choose from yet. The hope is something that's a genuine tactical detriment in play rather than a bland HP loss and makes the character play like he's hurt himself.
I think its the "until end of encounter, or healing surge spent" part that is really tripping you up, not the effect of the condition. Conditions hurt in 4E, and being under one the entire combat is going to be rough. That's why I suggest (save ends). You could always adjust it to require more than one save, if you'd like it to last a bit longer (two or three saves would be my suggested limit here). You could also try the Weakened condition. Again though, be careful about making it last too long.
Well one per round, just like a disease or whatever. Example: say your
Con mod is 1+3 which gives you four rounds before you cook off. So you roll at the start of each round. If you succeed, the effect ends. If you fail then there's no other effect other than ticking off one of the rounds on your timer. So forth until either you save and end the effect or BOOM. So the Con+3 thing just sets the timer so to speak, otherwise it works just like a disease or petrification.But yeah, I hadn't figured on the hit point totals diminishing as characters level up. By 30 levels 2[30d6] of damage against someone with 150 hit...
Ah, that makes more sense then. Interesting idea. Any reason you want a ticking time bomb type scenario?
To keep the ratio of 2d6 at 1st, try +1d6 every other level. 12 out of mid-20s at 1st. 18 out of low-30s at 3rd. 24 out of 40ish at 5th. Seems about right. Won't kill them, but will likely hurt.
Edit: Also, I'd likewise suggest some kind of ability to end the burn-out halving affect. A cumulative penalty on your explode-y save would be another nice touch (each time you do it, gets harder to not pop ...)
Why not try to shift some of this on your players. Ask them to come up with reasons why their abilities only work a limited number of times and the consequences of pushing them. I am all about delegation.
What I meant by swapping was off your original topic. What if you could swap a Daily power to use an Encounter power again or X number of times again.
Ick. Yeah, that's definitely more than I want. Really I'm looking for a status that already exists in the game that reflects being tired and beat up. Slowed maybe? Eh. The hope would be to use something that exists, but there ain't much to choose from yet. The hope is something that's a genuine tactical detriment in play rather than a bland HP loss and makes the character play like he's hurt himself.
There are several status effects that aren't as serious as being dazed. I don't have the list in front of me, but I'm sure one of them will fit the bill better then Dazed does. You could in fact invent one just for these rules. 'Strained' would be a good name for it.
In the end, I thinkthe effect should be that the player grants combat advatage to his foes until he rests and performing the manuver costs a a healing surge.
That would certainly make a player think twice. The bonus to hit and extra damage from rogue types would be a big handcap, and it plays nicely with the idea that the player is being hampered by his exertion, and that characters capable of exploiting weakness gain a significant advatage over him.
But yeah, I hadn't figured on the hit point totals diminishing as characters level up.By 30 levels 2[30d6] of damage against someone with 150 hit points seems like a lot. Too much really. I'd like the boom to be bigger as the spells get bigger, which level roughly translates to--and I'd like the damage to be significant.
But yeah the hope is certainly not to drop PCs in one shot with this. It's a detriment of overextending yourself, hopefully not a one-way ticket to deadville.
Have you considered then basing the damage on the spell itself instead of level? If, for example, a player cast metoer swarm and does 9d6 to everybody, then fails his check or save to avoid the backlash, he could take 18d6 himself. Or you could just center the spell on him instead of where he wanted it placed.
It would mean the player would pay a higher cost for failure at higher level, but not instantly blow himself up. And for powers which inflict status effects, you could double the effect, requiring two seperate saves to shake off the effects.
Have you considered then basing the damage on the spell itself instead of level? If, for example, a player cast metoer swarm and does 9d6 to everybody, then fails his check or save to avoid the backlash, he could take 18d6 himself. Or you could just center the spell on him instead of where he wanted it placed.
Of course, you could base it off the level of the spell. There are only a few levels of daily spells in the game, so you'd just have to determine totals for what happens when you fail your exploding check on them. Plus, higher level characters will be able to push themselves with lower level spells with less risk (dunno if that is an affect you want or not ...)
I think I saw something similar to this posted somewhere but I can not remember where. How about assigning a penalty and let PCs attempt the maneuvers as often as they want. Play with the math until the chances of executing the ability successfully are roughly the same as happening once an encounter and/or once a day. You would probably have to scale it so that they are not easier as the PCs gain levels.
From my read, being dazed just means you lose one of your two actions per round. You can fight or move, but not both. Besides, at encounter level you can spend a healing surge and it goes away. It feels flavorful, but not too overwhelming for my tastes at least.
Presumably you PCs won't be going down this route unless things are getting very tough. If thats the case then you might want to consider that they could well be out of healing surges. Healing surges in a single encounter can be pretty scarce. Basically some classes can use abilities to let you spend them and you get a second wind. If the clerics already spent his two (not necessarily on you) and you've used your second wind your pretty much out of luck.
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There's a table in the DMG...I want to say page 42, but I think thats wrong. In any event, its the table that essentially shows the damage output for all attacks at all levels (well, in a few steps of levels anyway). The table has damage values for at-will, encounter, and daily (I think it calls them something else)
power backlash for using a power after you've "run out" could do damage equal to the level of the power (on the table) and at the "low" rate. Next time you use it after you've "run out" it might kick up to the "moderate" damage rate, etc.
For those powers you don't want to be simply HP dumps, consider replacing the "low" rate with a condition as you describe (-2 to attacks, or a defense, or the enemy gets a +2 defense, or something like daze or weakened), next time they use the power, they get the condition and the "low" rate damage (psychic feedback, pull a hamstring, whatever), and then next time it ups to more damage, or perhaps a "harsher" condition.
I know you might not like the use of everything doing damage, but damage in 4E is even more abstract than previous editions. But more important than abstractness is game balance. By including damage to the player what your effectively doing is effectively allowing an additional attack in exchange for an "additional" attack by the enemy. Balance-wise thats fair. But in terms of Verisimilitude that's lame. So you tie the enemies attack into some "backlash" damage. The problem there, of course, is that if the attack damage is equal to the backlash damage, it becomes a HP race. Thats boring too. By throwing in conditions (heck, I'd go so far as a random roll on a condition chart) and upping the ante on damage such that in a LONG fight, the edge goes to the enemy on the HP race, then this house-rule truly becomes a dynamic tool that's used in those hail mary moments, and not something that's simply an increase in the "# of times per day". This way, any encounter where you try and use a power "one more time" is something that should be decisive: stop the BBEG from unleashing the chained demon, or stunning the Brute long enough to allow your allies to run by and get to the strikers. You use it, you take a disadvantage, but the tactical advantage of "one more time" is worth it.
That last paragraph is long-winded, but essentially just aim for that happy point where you won't go for extra encounter powers EVERY encounter, instead you'll do it where there's a clear tactical advantage for using a power one more time. Hit that mark and your golden.
It's not a verisimilitude thing here, trying to have everything not do hit points of damage, as much as it's a desire for color and flavor thing. Certainly all monster attacks could do hitpoints, but the flavor decision of the 4e designers was that effects mixed with damage, mixed with shifting movement and continuing effects makes for much more dynamic, involved, fun gameplay. I'm shooting for the same kind of thing here. I dig damage as a possible penalty. I just don't think that's the most colorful solution all the time.
That and I'd hate for hit points to become like the psionic power points of 4e, an economy of spend this many HP and get a special ability. I think that kind of trade is too straight across--if that makes any sense.
I do love your idea about using the damage per level listings in the DMG though. Those are seriously going to be my guiding star when I run games.