I thought I read an optional rule somewhere that let a cleric do damage instead of making them run with a successful turn undead check. Does anyone know which book this is in? I have a cleric in the new STAP group that wants to use it.
Thanks
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Pretty sure it is in complete divine. We have been using it, and it bears some discussion before it shows up in play. Keep in mind the following:
The range is shorter than for regular turning.
I believe you still roll to determine the max HD effected, but use your actual cleric level for the number of dice of damage.
The system recommends subtracting the amount of turn resistance from the damage done. Considering the magnitude of the damage done as compared to turn resistance, I recommend either increasing the effective HD to determine whether the creature is effected or treat turn resistance as a bonus to the saving throw.
Make sure your players understand the alternative before you use it or you will spend half the session chewing it out.
Complete Divine, page 87
In a nutshell:
Variant Rule: Turning Undead
Turning undead is a standard action that deals 1d6 damage/cleric level to all undead within 30 feet of the cleric.
The affected undead get a Will save (DC 10 + cleric level + Charisma modifier) for half damage.
Paladins work just as you expect, they turn undead as a cleric 3 levels lower.
Evil clerics (any cleric than can swap out spells for inflict damage spells) instead heal undead within 30 feet for 1d6/cleric level.
Undead with Turn Resistance may subtract that number from the damage that they take.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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So you don't do the initial check to see the max HD you can effect? I thought the damaging effect only replaced the turning effect.
I swear, as long as I've been playing, I never get turning. I suppose it's because when I do play, I never play a cleric.
The RAW goes like this:
1. Turning Check: Make check to see max HD effected by rolling d20 + Cha modifier on Turning Undead Table.
2. Turning Damage: Roll 2d6 + clr level + Cha mod to determine total HD turned.
IIRC, the variant rules replace rule 2, but not rule 1.
Here's how we utilize in our sessions:
Variant Rule: Turning Undead
Turning undead is a standard action that deals 1d6 damage/cleric level to all undead within 30 feet of the cleric.
The affected undead get a Will save (DC 10 + cleric level + Charisma modifier) for half damage.
Paladins work just as you expect, they turn undead as a cleric 3 levels lower.
Evil clerics (any cleric than can swap out spells for inflict damage spells) instead heal undead within 30 feet for 1d6/cleric level.
Turn Resistance: Undead with turn resistance receive a profane bonus equal to the indicated number applied to the Will save and a reduction of any turning damage by the indicated turn resistance number. For example a vampire with a +4 turn resistance, gains a +4 profane bonus to its Will save and reduces any inflicted damage by 4. Positive energy resistance (if any) does not stack - the greater overlaps.
Nah, just calculate the damage and give it to all affected undead. I too share your Turning pain, the variant rule was happily accepted by our gaming group and it really does make more sense. A positive energy charged cleric just blasts away undead.
Yes, but what about a negative energy cleric's ability to command undead? That is a potent ability that I don't see supported in this new rule system.
As far as regular turning goes, I've rarely used it, myself, and thus have a hard time remembering how it goes, but I am starting to get the hang of it (playing alongside a Radiant Servant of Pelor for about 6 levels will make you more familiar with the rules).
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Yes, but what about a negative energy cleric's ability to command undead? That is a potent ability that I don't see supported in this new rule system.
Rebuking uses negative energy and thus heals undead under this system.
I suppose there's an argument to be made that it should provide temporary hit points as well. That's not in this set of optional rules, but it would be a logical addition.
I've used the variant in that fashion for evil (negative energy clerics) repair damage or boost with temporary hit points. As a rule of thumb, temporary hit points last an hour.
Yes, but what about a negative energy cleric's ability to command undead? That is a potent ability that I don't see supported in this new rule system.
As far as regular turning goes, I've rarely used it, myself, and thus have a hard time remembering how it goes, but I am starting to get the hang of it (playing alongside a Radiant Servant of Pelor for about 6 levels will make you more familiar with the rules).
I love the alternative turning rules and have been somewhat surprised that most gamers I meet are resistant to try it. Anyway to COMMAND an undead, what about forcing a will save of undead within 30 ft = 10 + 1/2 cleric level + Cha? If the the undead make the save, the rebuke attempt is wasted. Sounds balanced, seeing as how only undead of lower CR than the cleric will likely be commanded.
That is a great idea, and I am going to implement it! Good suggestion, thanks.
I am going to be using a combination of both types of turning in my next campaign. I actually like both versions and think that PCs and NPCs should be given a choice of what version they want to use in an encounter. I don't think its a huge stretch for both types of turning to exist in the game and it gives the players and DMs a lot more flexibility. Of course, an undead cleric using this variant rule would be extremely powerful. He could bolster himself and heal himself several times in one battle. Nasty!
If people are using this variant rule, how does the turning work for those with the associated elemental domains? Does someone with the Fire domain deal damage to elemental creatures of water with a turning check? Does he heal elemental creatures of flame with a turning check?
This is the system I've been using for the last two campaigns, approx. 3 yrs. I always found the existing turning rules unsatisfying at mid and higher levels-eg, a 10th level cleric can't effect a CR 8 adult red dragon skeleton because it has 19 Hit dice. I've also adjusted the various feats to be in alignment with this variant system.
Turning/Command
Positive Energy (Good Clerics)
Area of Effect-30’ radius
Damage-1d6/cleric level
Save-Will DC 10+1/2 cleric level + Cha bonus
Negative Energy (Evil Clerics)
Area of Effect-30’ radius
Save-Will DC 10+1/2 cleric level + Cha bonus (Applicable only to Command)
Effects: Heal undead 1d6/cleric level
Bolster Undead by conferring turn resistance of:
Level Turn Resistance
1-3 +1
4-6 +2
7-9 +3
10-12 +4
13-15 +5
16-18 +6
19-21 +7
Command-Undead failing their will save are commanded for 10 rounds. If the commander has HD equal or greater than the target it is permanently commanded. A cleric may not have more permanently commanded undead in this fashion than he has clerical levels.
Effect of Skills
Knowledge (religion)-+2 DC if 5 or more ranks
Effects of Feats/Abilities
Disciple Sun-Maximize damage by expending an additional turn
Empower Turning-Turning damage is x 1.5
Heighten Turning-For each 1d6 of damage sacrificed, up to maximum below, gain +2 DC
Level Max dice sacrificed/DC bonus
1-3 -1/+2
4-6 -2/+4
7-9 -3/+6
10-12 -4/+8
13-15 -5/+10
16-18 -6/+12
19-21 -7/+14
Improved Turning-+2 DC
Quicken Turning-turn as a free action, but only once per round
Sun Domain-Maximize damage 1/day
Effect of Turn Resistance
Turn resistance is a bonus on the will save which stacks with all other bonus types. It also reduces the damage inflicted by the amount of the turn resistance.
Spell Effects
Consecrate-increases DC by either 3, or 6 if it contains an altar or other fixture
Desecrate-reduces the DC by either 3, or 6 if it contains an altar or other fixture
Hallow-Increases turning DC by 4 for and negates up to 4 points of turn resistance on damage inflicted. Decreases command DC by 4 and –4 all healing results for undead.
Unhallow –Decreases turning DC by 4 and confers +4 turn resistance. Increases command DC by 4 and +4 all healing results.
Wow this has all been great stuff. Thanks.
I second this motion. Great stuff!
Pleasure to contribute. The alternate system has worked very well and has enabled the cleric to damage the undead using turns, rather than resorting to melee or casting a flame strike. I never felt it was overpowered. The good will save undead possess, coupled with the turn resistance most higher level undead have, generally result in the the undead saving for 1/2 damage further lessened by turn resistance. This allows a 10th cleric (assuming the target saved) to inflict damage in the mid teens if rolling or upper 20s if maximized after adjusted for turn resistance.
my thought is that turn resistance should reduce the number of dice rolled in the turning attempt. So a 10th-level cleric vs an undead with +4 turn resistance would only deal 6d6 damage.
my thought is that turn resistance should reduce the number of dice rolled in the turning attempt. So a 10th-level cleric vs an undead with +4 turn resistance would only deal 6d6 damage.
While that is certainly an option I'd be hesitant to use it as it could again render turning all but ineffective at high and low levels. Consider a ghoul, CR 1, has a turn resistance of +2. A 1-2 cleric couldn't effect him at all if the turn resistance alters the number of dice rolled, and a 3rd cl would only do 1d6 with a save for 1/2. Doesn't seem very satisfying. At higher levels the improved turn resistance feat (+4 turn resistance which stacks with any inherent turn resistance) would result in the cleric being at -8 dice vs ghosts, vampires, etc. You would need to examine the implications at various levels and playtest it a bit to see what the real effect is. I, and more importantly the PC clerics, have been pleased with the system of turn resistance being akin to damage reduction. It does make clerics a bit more powerful vs undead, but that is there big 'shtick' and it now works in concert with the damage dealt by the fighters and wizard types.