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Since the remaster, Gunslingers get equal accuracy on both melee and ranged parts of Combination weapons, which encourages a hybrid, switch-hitting playstyle.
However they only get Critical Specialisation with Firearms and Crossbows, which means they're not only locked out of the melee group's Critical Specialisation, but are also locked out of the whole Critical Fusion mechanic.
Am I reading this right? If so, who are these weapons for? It looks to me almost nobody can make full use of them - not until 13th level at least, or through archetypes (e.g. Mauler Dedication for 2h Combination weapons). I thought they were supposed to be Gunslingers' toys.
On one hand, I can understand the annoyance and feeling that something that Gunslinger should have isn't being delivered.
But on the other hand, is the crit spec effect really so necessary and mandatory to have that it justifies this level of criticism? It seems like you are saying that Gunslinger can't use combination weapons to any meaningful degree. Which isn't justified by the facts presented.
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Given that "this level of criticism", as you call it, is a simple post on the internet, then yes: the lack of an option that should probably have been associated to the Gunslinger chassis, no matter how small, justifies it.
More to the point: this is the Rules forum. I've asked a question on the rules regarding Critical Specialisation. I am not 100% sure of my interpretation of the rule. I chose to use a language that conveys my perception of the issue and follows my personal taste. I don't have to "justify" it. Your response doesn't address the question either.
All I said is that, if this reading is correct, I don't see who is the intended user for these weapons, given that no class before 13th level can make use of them without archetypes. Choosing to read this as me stating that "Gunslinger can't use combination weapons to any meaningful degree" is a strawman, as I've never stated it, nor I agree with it.
Hope this provides the sufficient context to answer the actual question. Ta.
I think you're understanding is correct OP, but there are a few things I'm confused about.
What rule(s) gives the Gunslinger equal attack with both melee and ranged portion of a combination weapon?
If I look at the class, the Gunslinger still has master progression with most martial weapons, and Legendary with firearms and crossbows.
Their dex is going to be higher than str (normally) and so combination weapons that don't have finesse trait on the melee side will have a different attack bonus.
But let's assume it is equal (because I assume there's just some rule that I'm missing).
The draw (in my mind) of a combination weapon is having a single weapon (sharing one set of runes) that is both ranged (your primary attack method) but also offers melee potential as a backup, that won't be significantly worse off compared to those who carry multiple weapons (who are disadvantaged by action economy and runes).
While not getting the crit effect isn't nice, crit's are also uncommon enough that I wouldn't be basing my decisions to use such a weapon around whether or not I got the crit effect.
So what's the point of combination weapons? Who is the intended user. There isn't necessarily going to be one. Dedicated options are typically going to be better, because versatility does have value.
I can't really think of a routine situation where I'd want a Gun Sword over a Jezail, but the gun sword is going to be better if you're forced into melee and have to pull out a backup weapon.
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They don't per RAW. It is likely something that was forgotten when writing the class.
IIRC the easiest way around this is to get familiarity with the weapon, or its melee part, through Ancestry feats.
Thanks! From what I understand however, RAW the melee part of a Combination weapon is its own weapon, and won't benefit from Ancestry feats.
For example, Dwarven Weapon Familiarity grants familiarity and Critical Specialisation with the Warhammer, but RAW this benefit doesn't translate to the melee part of a Hammer Gun, because the Hammer Gun is not a Warhammer. Is this correct?
The reason why I asked this question in the first place is that the description of Combination weapons lends itself to interpreting the melee and ranged parts as the same weapon:
Since a combination weapon is one weapon with two usages, both usages share any fundamental runes.
whose "primary identity" is determined by the ranged part:
A combination weapon has a ranged form or usage and a melee weapon form or usage. The combination weapons table lists the ranged weapon statistics first and the melee weapon statistics indented beneath, just above the ammunition.
So a possible interpretation for me was that Combination weapons are Firearms/Crossbows first that have a melee use associated with a certain weapon group for the purposes of determining which Critical Specialisation effect to apply when critting in melee.
I know, this is a veeery weak interpretation, but honestly feels less lame than needing to be a 13th level Fighter to crit with both ends of Triggerbrand.
All I said is that, if this reading is correct, I don't see who is the intended user for these weapons, given that no class before 13th level can make full* use of them without archetypes.
*typo.
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What rule(s) gives the Gunslinger equal attack with both melee and ranged portion of a combination weapon?
If you are using a combination weapon whose ranged form is a firearm or crossbow, you use your proficiency with firearms and crossbows for attacks made with the melee portion of that weapon.
Their dex is going to be higher than str (normally) and so combination weapons that don't have finesse trait on the melee side will have a different attack bonus.
If my objective it to maximise both melee and ranged combat, I will maximise both Str and Dex, having +4 on both at level 5. The fitness of such build is not the objective of this thread.
So what's the point of combination weapons?
The point of Combination weapons is not up for debate. As their niche and applicability are well established.
Who is the intended user. There isn't necessarily going to be one. Dedicated options are typically going to be better, because versatility does have value.
Given the privileged position Gunslingers invest in regards to Combination weapons, it would make sense they are the intended users. As it's been said, missing the Critical Specialisation on the melee use is not a big deal, which means that giving them the option is not a big deal either, and would allow these weapons to be fully usable from level 5. At the moment, the only workaround I've found to gain access to Critical Specialisation on both ends is the Mauler Dedication, and that only applies to 2h weapons. For 1h weapons, the only way is 13th level Fighter. This feels way to gimmicky and does not look normal to me.
I can't really think of a routine situation where I'd want a Gun Sword over a Jezail, but the gun sword is going to be better if you're forced into melee and have to pull out a backup weapon.
It's not my intention to discuss my build and this is not the objective of this thread.
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They don't per RAW. It is likely something that was forgotten when writing the class.
IIRC the easiest way around this is to get familiarity with the weapon, or its melee part, through Ancestry feats.
Thanks! From what I understand however, RAW the melee part of a Combination weapon is its own weapon, and won't benefit from Ancestry feats.
For example, Dwarven Weapon Familiarity grants familiarity and Critical Specialisation with the Warhammer, but RAW this benefit doesn't translate to the melee part of a Hammer Gun, because the Hammer Gun is not a Warhammer. Is this correct?
Correct. But, if you use a Dwarf combination weapon, you get familiarity with the whole weapon, both melee usage and ranged usage.
Yep, I made a Hold-Scarred Gunslinger Orc with +2 Str who wielded a gunsword on Pathbuilder and he had a +7 bonus to melee at level 1. I initially thought it was an error. And if I made his strength +4 it would have been +9, which is Fighter-level.
It definitely seems like a weird exploit that “firearms master” is “blade-saint” when his sword has a trigger and a barrel.
As the Critical Specialisation, I feel a) they are a weird and kinda anemic mechanic, and I hand them out to everyone anyway - as currently written I feel they represent more the weapon and not “knowing how to use the weapon”* and b) even if I was still “playing by official rules” I would just give the Crit Spec for combination weapons to Gunslingers seeing as they are most likely the ones using them.
*Kirth Gersen’s “Kirthfinder” was a hack of Pathfinder 1e and, if I recall correctly, had a version of critical specialisations for every weapon. I can’t seem to find whichever version I originally had, and have been meaning to track one done for the past few weeks -
might have to ask TriOmegaZero if they have a copy…I seem to remember TOZ and Kirth played together…
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Since the remaster, Gunslingers get equal accuracy on both melee and ranged parts of Combination weapons, which encourages a hybrid, switch-hitting playstyle.
However they only get Critical Specialisation with Firearms and Crossbows, which means they're not only locked out of the melee group's Critical Specialisation, but are also locked out of the whole Critical Fusion mechanic.
Am I reading this right? If so, who are these weapons for? It looks to me almost nobody can make full use of them - not until 13th level at least, or through archetypes (e.g. Mauler Dedication for 2h Combination weapons). I thought they were supposed to be Gunslingers' toys.
You are reading it right: that's what it says.
I think there's a strong case that Gunslingers should get it with combination weapons that qualify (so firearm/crossbow ones) given they're getting their better proficiency with them, but RAW they don't.
And yeah, I'm not sure what the use case is here outside of specific archetypes/Fighter/dual class.
What rule(s) gives the Gunslinger equal attack with both melee and ranged portion of a combination weapon?If you are using a combination weapon whose ranged form is a firearm or crossbow, you use your proficiency with firearms and crossbows for attacks made with the melee portion of that weapon.Their dex is going to be higher than str (normally) and so combination weapons that don't have finesse trait on the melee side will have a different attack bonus.If my objective it to maximise both melee and ranged combat, I will maximise both Str and Dex, having +4 on both at level 5. The fitness of such build is not the objective of this thread.
So what's the point of combination weapons?The point of Combination weapons is not up for debate. As their niche and applicability are well established.
Who is the intended user. There isn't necessarily going to be one. Dedicated options are typically going to be better, because versatility does have value.Given the privileged position Gunslingers invest in regards to Combination weapons, it would make sense they are the intended users. As it's been said, missing the Critical Specialisation on the melee use is not a big deal, which means that giving them the option is not a big deal either, and would allow these weapons to be fully usable from level 5. At the moment, the only workaround I've found to gain access to Critical Specialisation on both ends is the Mauler Dedication, and that only applies to 2h weapons. For 1h weapons, the only way is 13th level Fighter. This feels way to gimmicky and does not look normal to me.
I can't really think of a routine situation where I'd want a Gun Sword over a Jezail, but the gun sword is going to be better if you're forced into melee and have to pull out a backup weapon.It's not my intention to discuss my build and this is not the objective of...
It seems like we're mostly aligned here, though I do disagree that "the point of combination weapons is not up for debate". They have a niche. If you're building a character around that niche, that's fine. It's a choice you can absolutely make.
From my perspective, it's not going to be as strong as a gunslinger character that focuses purely on their firearm capabilities, but there are situations where it might make sense. An example of which could be that you're the only martial character in the group and as such need to be competent at melee (because you're going to be in melee range).
Anyways, you have the correct understanding of the rules. You don't get the critical specialization effect.