There's been a few Magus threads going around right now, and those have all fed into a core idea I'm interested in developing, so might as well start by explaining the thought process:
TL;DR: The Magus has a lot of stuff at level 1 besides Spellstrike, but in my opinion a lot of that stuff feels so-so to use or just gets in the way. Meanwhile, the class's unique ability to seamlessly combine spell and Strike feels increasingly limited at a time when the game continues to receive new spells, few to none of which are attack spells. Although the class can have some amazing moments, they can also easily feel clunky, repetitive, and not as satisfying as they could be.
Based on this, and some suggestions made by different posters in other threads, the key idea here is: what if the Magus leaned even more into Spellstrike? What if the class dropped some of its other elements, or at least moved them to feats, in order to become far more versatile and effective at the thing people play the class for? This is the key idea behind a general set of changes that I'm keen to refine and workshop based on others' input:
TL;DR: The key idea here is to drop most of the Magus's existing features, shift those to feats when possible, and instead allow Spellstrike to apply its accuracy compression to both attack and save spells, while letting the Magus Spellstrike with a smaller number of slot spells across encounters without long-term attrition. This would make the Magus one of the best single-target duelists, if not the best, giving them an unparalleled ability to apply both burst damage and crowd control to single enemies via a diverse range of arcane spells. Although this would allow them to potentially devastate enemies with crowd control from spells like slow in addition to burst damage, making each of those slot spells one-use per encounter ought to prevent them from getting spammed, and should push the Magus to Spellstrike with a more varied range of spells each time.
This is an idea I'd like to flesh out as a full homebrew concept, but first I'd like to smoke test this idea and see what others think about it: does the core idea appeal? Are there features talked about being cut here that are seen as essential to the core Magus? Is Spellstrike enough to potentially carry the entire Magus as a class?
Happy for others to disagree with me, but it really seems like a class that only has one feature is outside of the general design principles that made up the transition into second edition. That said, I think people wouldn't like being a class that is a one-trick pony.
However, you have some flexibility with the way you do the tricks, so there is some wiggle room to argue one could get enough from it to potentially be happy.
I love the flavor of Arcane Cascade, but admit that it is hard to justify going into frequently in play the way it currently is, so I imagine many people wouldn't feel like they were losing that much if you removed it. (But again I love its flavor) I confess that I sort of feel cornering the magus into only being able to learn one study feels a little like they missed a chance to encourage them to use the features more. (again making less use of the existing feature) So basically, I'd hate to see it go, but other's might generally not be as attached to it.
Your proposed spellstriking slots are basically sort of turning their spellstriking spells into focus-like spells letting them cast them theoretically unlimited times every day. But I suppose since they would have to be 'attack or save spells' maybe that excludes the sort of utility spells that allowing someone to cast it many times a day would cause problems for.
I'm wondering.... it sort of feels like the magus should have the flexibility to do some basic casting that are combat related, but not spellstrikes. A simple example that comes to mind immediately would be a shield cantrip.
What if keeping in mind your suggestion, the class gets to prepare two cantrips (at least one of which must be eligible for their spellstrikes) like you mentioned, and a spellstrike slot. However, the cantrips can be cast as part of a spellstrike (if spell-strikeable) or as standard spell. Have them begin with a spellbook of 5 cantrips and 2 1-rank spells.
Start an encounter with Spellstrike active. Spellstriking with standard cantrips don't expend the spellstrike ability. Spellstriking with a slotted spell, expires the spellstrike. They can regain spellstrike by spending an action, or casting any cantrip or other spell using at least 2 or 3 actions, or by casting any cantrip which is spellstrike-eligible as a regular cantrip.
This would allow a magus to choose to prepare a Shield Cantrip, as an example as one of their cantrips. As they advance, they would gain additional cantrips and spellstrike slots, and slots at higher ranks as they level up.
I sort of personally dislike the whole swapping of save effects, as it feels complex in a way I don't think is elegant. But I have to confess, I don't normally worry that much about complexity if it feels right, so maybe this concept is just coming from a first impressions for me. If given a chance to use it for a while where it was normal, I might be perfectly fine with it.
I'm assuming that if your took the expansive spellstrike feat, you would have all the individuals other than the primary target, do normal saves against their spell.
I'm going to ask the following question however. If you make these changes, what would you have the Magus Dedication grant?
I'll start by answering the question first: I'd have the dedication provide Spellstrike directly along with a cantrip that can only be cast with Spellstrike, with this version of Spellstrike always needing to be recharged as a 1-minute activity, as with the Spellstriker archetype feat.
I wouldn't be opposed to giving the Magus non-Spellstriking cantrips to play with if there's room, though the alternative I had in mind is that you could select feats at 1st-level, and there'd be a 1st-level feat to let you prepare cantrips. Because spells are so varied, I feel a Fighter- or Monk-style structure where you narrow down your playstyle with a 1st-level feat rather than a subclass might help give the Magus the option to spec into whatever playstyle they like from the get-go.
Part of me does worry that going all in on Spellstrike like this could make the class even more of a one-trick pony, but ideally the ability to cast spells more freely with it across the day should give the class more variety overall. The reasoning here is that Spellstrike would be to the Magus what Rage is to the Barbarian or panache is to the Swashbuckler: it's your core gameplay mechanic, and so your core loop in combat would revolve around using this mechanic to the fullest and dealing with its action economy too. Ideally, with enough spells to Spellstrike with, the Magus ought to feel like they have a diverse array of spells to work with, and their feats should help provide them with additional moves as with other martial classes. I'd even be tempted to poach moves from the Fighter and integrate them into Spellstrike, so that you could do the equivalent of stuff like Double Slice or Slam Down while Spellstriking.
Some things I'm immediately leery of:
-Both the magus players I've run for have enjoyed having the option of using slotted arcane spells available for utility or damage, and saw it as a significant perk of playing the class. I do not think they would be happy to lose the ability to, say, cast invisibility on half the party if they felt it would be a good plan for the day. This is especially true for magi in parties without two full casters.
I don't /personally/ think this is optimal and wouldn't play magus this way, but it is clearly a play pattern people ask for and would want to preserve.
-Comparing your attack roll against a fortitude/reflex/will DC to see the outcome of a spellstrike spell is a 4E takeaway that makes some sense, but I think this could result in some worrying interactions. Saves aren't designed with martial accuracy progression (especially the to-hit bonuses from items) in mind.
-Cantrip spellstriking is still pretty okay damage, especially with Force Fang as a recharge. None of the magus players I've had felt like they underperformed when using gouging claw spellstrikes, even if slotted spellstrike or amped IW spellstrike are more damaging. The buy-now-pay-later nature of spellstrike (i.e., you get 3 actions of damage for 2 and pay the third later) is a fairly significant tempo advantage at times, even just with cantrips. It is frontloaded burst at MAP-0! Spellstriking with cantrips still needs a recharge cost to account for this tempo advantage.
-You're effectively letting magus pick a slotted spell to use as a focus spell with spellstrike, no? If you're doing that, the spell rank should be capped to one or two lower than the max a 10th caster gets at the same level, to keep it more in line with other focus spells. Even with this limited casting, though, I'm certain there will be some extremely wonky abuse cases.
I know you're not mechanically making them focus spells, but as a renewable cast, I think the same power level guideline should apply.
I also think the number of slot spells available is both unspecified and incredibly important. Frankly, I cannot see this being balanced unless it's either just a single top-rank spell per encounter and that's it, or you get maybe 3 top rank-2 spells if you'd prefer a larger quantity.
The issue is that you've taken slotted spellstrike from a daily resource that might not be spent into a per-encounter resource that is guaranteed to be spent. Magus damage now has however many slotted spellstrikes per encounter as a baseline.
-Between the last two changes (guaranteed slotted spells for use in every encounter and removing spellstrike recharge on cantrips), you've massively increased Magus's damage floor. Even unarchetyped, magus damage is acceptable right now because they deal massive damage on crits. Removing spellstrike recharge on cantrips increases the damage floor substantially by removing action inefficiencies and granting magi better mobility. It also has a massive knock-on effect: a ton of archetypes that were terrible on Magus because it was action-starved are viable choices, because it has 1A open far more frequently. This is neat from a build perspective, but it hugely increases the baseline powerlevel of the class.
I feel like these changes have way too much of an eye towards the current power ceiling of magus when archetyped for focus spells, and don't take enough account of the floor.
-I think the general flavor of magus that attracts people is "INT caster with a sword." Things like recharging spellstrike with more typical martial skill actions (athletics, intimidate) don't feel as on-flavor unless they're attached to a conflux spell. There's a reason the main skill-action-plus-recharge is Magus's Analysis. And generally, I think this entire overhaul risks alienating people who come to the magus to get half a spellcaster and want to feel like a spellcaster some of the time.
How does the weapon range factor into this?
Melee magi will be very limited without the spellcasting giving them options at different ranges and a starlit span magi or something analogus to it here would be the envy of any ranged character, especially eldritch archers.
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How does the weapon range factor into this?
Melee magi will be very limited without the spellcasting giving them options at different ranges and a starlit span magi or something analogus to it here would be the envy of any ranged character, especially eldritch archers.
My thinking is that you could always deliver a Spellstrike with a melee weapon, including reach weapons, even if the spell's range is shorter, and you could take a 1st-level feat that'd let you use an extra action to make ranged Spellstrikes. This would allow ranged Maguses to work without giving them better action economy than their melee counterparts.
-Both the magus players I've run for have enjoyed having the option of using slotted arcane spells available for utility or damage, and saw it as a significant perk of playing the class. I do not think they would be happy to lose the ability to, say, cast invisibility on half the party if they felt it would be a good plan for the day. This is especially true for magi in parties without two full casters.
This is something I'm wary of as well, yeah, which is why I'd still want bounded spellcasting to be an option via feats. I imagine it wouldn't necessarily satisfy players who'd want that spellcasting by default, though.
-Comparing your attack roll against a fortitude/reflex/will DC to see the outcome of a spellstrike spell is a 4E takeaway that makes some sense, but I think this could result in some worrying interactions. Saves aren't designed with martial accuracy progression (especially the to-hit bonuses from items) in mind.
I don't think this is quite true given how skill checks are expressly designed to both target save DCs and scale faster than attacks, but spell attacks aren't meant to be as accurate as Strikes either as a baseline, and that's what I'm banking on. The point here is to let Spellstrike do things that would normally be quite broken, like crit someone with a slow Spellstrike, at the expense of the class's existing freeform spellcasting. I don't think this could be allowed on the current Magus, but I do think this could be allowed on a Magus that didn't have as much other stuff in their kit.
The issue is that you've taken slotted spellstrike from a daily resource that might not be spent into a per-encounter resource that is guaranteed to be spent. Magus damage now has however many slotted spellstrikes per encounter as a baseline.
This is not particularly true in practice, at least not from level 6 onwards when the Magus gets imaginary weapon and becomes able to deal slot spell-grade Spellstrike damage 3 times per encounter. This, and not the Magus in a vacuum, is the standard I'm operating on, especially as I don't think the Magus is too strong a class even with that combo. This is similarly why I don't believe this would meaningfully affect the Magus's damage output overall, even if it absolutely would massively buff the Magus's ability to output single-target debuffs and crowd control, because the Magus already operates at a level where using slot spells instead of imaginary weapon would not constitute a major damage increase.
I think the general flavor of magus that attracts people is "INT caster with a sword." Things like recharging spellstrike with more typical martial skill actions (athletics, intimidate) don't feel as on-flavor unless they're attached to a conflux spell. There's a reason the main skill-action-plus-recharge is Magus's Analysis. And generally, I think this entire overhaul risks alienating people who come to the magus to get half a spellcaster and want to feel like a spellcaster some of the time.
This is fair, putting the Magus's hybrid spellcasting behind feats might put off people wanting a class that provides that spellcasting by default. I suppose this is something to test out in practice, but my hope is that players wanting a true hybrid would be able to get what they want via those feats, while the base class works mainly to deliver a maximally satisfying Spellstrike, which in my experience is the actual main draw of the class for the players who picked a Magus.
This is not particularly true in practice, at least not from level 6 onwards when the Magus gets imaginary weapon and becomes able to deal slot spell-grade Spellstrike damage 3 times per encounter. This, and not the Magus in a vacuum, is the standard I'm operating on, especially as I don't think the Magus is too strong a class even with that combo. This is similarly why I don't believe this would meaningfully affect the Magus's damage output overall, even if it absolutely would massively buff the Magus's ability to output single-target debuffs and crowd control, because the Magus already operates at a level where using slot spells instead of imaginary weapon would not constitute a major damage increase.
This is one thing if it's for personal use at tables with a certain expected level of optimization; you don't need to worry about it. But if it's for general release, you need to be aware that classes that have high built-in floors can cause issues at low optimization tables.
It can be true that this magus does less damage in most encounters than IW magus. It can also be true that this magus does significantly more damage in most encounters when built by a player that doesn't know much about PF2E optimization as compared to stock Magus. And that can make it a problem.
Easily optimized classes and subclasses (i.e., ones that you can optimize with little system knowledge, usually just by picking class feats that fit what the class/subclass seems to want you to do, or ones that have mechanics that give them a good baseline regardless of feat selection) are often the strongest classes in practice at most tables. I'm worried that this class proposal has a very, very high baseline in virtue of its mechanics.
This is one thing if it's for personal use at tables with a certain expected level of optimization; you don't need to worry about it. But if it's for general release, you need to be aware that classes that have high built-in floors can cause issues at low optimization tables.
Imaginary weapon on the Magus isn't some top-secret, ultra-rarefied synergy known only to a select few; it's a ubiquitous combo that's mentioned in practically every discussion of the Magus online, that I've seen every single one of my Magus players take, and that I've used as well. It is the floor, for all intents and purposes, and the Magus is balanced with it. I would, in fact, go as far as to say that without imaginary weapon, the Magus is not that amazing a class, so that synergy's doing a lot of heavy lifting in raising them to a good level. So, in a way, you're right and I agree with you: I absolutely do need to be aware that classes in PF2e have built-in floors and are generally designed to not need to be optimized to play at least decently, which is why I want to cut out the need for that synergy in the first place and bring the class to a level where they don't have to multiclass to make the most of their core mechanics.
A fighter with a two handed reach weapon who took tactical reflexes and disruptive stance and otherwise has randomish feats is probably more powerful than just slapping IW on an otherwise unoptimized magus, and I think it’s about the same level of (fairly low) player skill to find or hear about those combos.
A fighter with a two handed reach weapon who took tactical reflexes and disruptive stance and otherwise has randomish feats is probably more powerful than just slapping IW on an otherwise unoptimized magus, and I think it’s about the same level of (fairly low) player skill to find or hear about those combos.
On that note, actually, I do think the Fighter's a good yardstick for the kind of playstyle I'd want to implement here: right now, the Fighter has top-tier Strike damage, and soundly beats the Magus (which is fine). On top of this, the Fighter also has excellent single-target crowd control, thanks to their many feats that let them use their high attack modifier to apply conditions, and so with no resource constraints. This also means that currently, they beat the vanilla Magus at single-target crowd control (which is fine). What the Magus has in exchange is their iconic burst, which has both its benefits and downsides compared to spreading damage out into multiple hits, the ability to trigger weaknesses a bit more easily thanks to Arcane Cascade, and their arcane spellcasting. I don't think it's necessarily a one-to-one equivalence, as Arcane Cascade is difficult to activate and the Magus is a mediocre spellcaster at best, but it's still things the class has. Take those away from the class's core features, and I think it could be okay for the Magus to have top-tier single-target crowd control and debuffing via Spellstrike, alongside strong single-target damage that remains a bit under the Fighter's. It would be unprecedented, for sure, but doing things that aren't normally allowed by default is kind of the whole point of a class.