How does Die Hard, the feat (122 Core), work with the barbarian rage power Guarded Life (76 APG)?
I know the automatic-stabilization feature of both abilities overlap, but Guarded Life states, "if the barbarian is reduced below 0 hit points, 1 hit point of lethal damage per barbarian level is converted to nonlethal damage" (76). Usually a "once per rage" comment is tacked on, but here, it's not.
So I'm curious how many times per rage lethal damage will be converted into nonlethal. I imagine it only happens once per round, but with Die Hard, I'm hoping a barbarian could just walk around staggered and disabled, still fighting (taking 1 point of damage per standard action), yet converting his damage into nonlethal.
Or does Guarded Life only happen during the precise moment after you hit 0 or dip past and only that once? So, for instance, a lvl-5 barbarian with a 15 Con, Die Hard, and Guarded Life is down to 10 hp. He gets hit for 21 damage, dropping him to -11 hp. He auto-stabilizes, converts 5 lethal damage into nonlethal, bringing his current hp to -6. He chooses to act as disabled. On his turn he's still below 0, so does he receive Guarded Life's benefit again, converting another 5 lethal damage into 5 nonlethal? Also, let's say he takes a standard action to attack his foe. He takes 1 point of damage for the effort (as per Die Hard rules): does this trigger Guarded Life again, and can he use this twice in one round if he received Guarded Life's benefit at the beginning of the turn?
Edit: I didn't mean to imply the barbarian could be healed even more after he rises above the 0-hp mark.
|
It's probably a moot point, because Diehard only allows you to keep up and at 'em due to being below zero Hit Points - it says nothing about ignoring the normal effects of your Hit Points being below your level of non-lethal damage. So, as soon as any damage converts from lethal to non-lethal, chances are your barbarian is KOd (and in a bad way, since his extra Hit Points from his rage induced Con have just vanished too).
... So, for instance, a lvl-5 barbarian with a 15 Con, Die Hard, and Guarded Life is down to 10 hp. He gets hit for 21 damage, dropping him to -11 hp. He auto-stabilizes, converts 5 lethal damage into nonlethal, bringing his current hp to -6. He chooses to act as disabled...
The bolded part is the issue - he can't do this, because -6 Hit Points is less than 5 non-lethal damage, so the guy's automatically KO'd. He now loses the 10 extra Hit Point he had from raging, so is down to -16 Hit Points and is also dead. If he'd had Diehard and not Guarded Life he'd actually have been better off in this instance, and he'd be at -11 Hit Points, but still raging and with a chance for his buddies to slap a CLW or two on him before he calms down...
because -6 Hit Points is less than 5 non-lethal damage, so the guy's automatically KO'd.
Well, nonlethal damage is separate from lethal damage: "Do not deduct the nonlethal damage number from your current hit points. It is not 'real' damage" (191 Core).
So I'd hope I'd have a little while to absorb all that new, nonlethal damage before I'm unconscious from that.
Do you know whether or not Guarded Life can be used multiple times in a round? Because I was hoping this is all a big survival tactic to keep hopping up above the 0-hp line.
|
|
Well, nonlethal damage is separate from lethal damage: "Do not deduct the nonlethal damage number from your current hit points. It is not 'real' damage" (191 Core).
Right. Non-lethal counts up, Hit Points count down. As soon as non-lethal is more than Hit Points (either by non-lethal going up or by Hit Points going down) then you're KO'd.
So I'd hope I'd have a little while to absorb all that new, nonlethal damage before I'm unconscious from that.
Nope. If you're at zero or less Hit Points and using Diehard to stay awake then a mere 1 point of non-lethal damage is enough to KO you.
Well, nonlethal damage is separate from lethal damage: "Do not deduct the nonlethal damage number from your current hit points. It is not 'real' damage" (191 Core).Right. Non-lethal counts up, Hit Points count down. As soon as non-lethal is more than Hit Points (either by non-lethal going up or by Hit Points going down) then you're KO'd.
So I'd hope I'd have a little while to absorb all that new, nonlethal damage before I'm unconscious from that.Nope. If you're at zero or less Hit Points and using Diehard to stay awake then a mere 1 point of non-lethal damage is enough to KO you.
Ah, I see... should have just kept reading.
Well, thanks for shooting that one down; would have been bad to have that happen at the table.
I believe the Diehard would keep the Barb conscious at -6 so he would not in fact lose his rage con and die.
My feeling on guarded life is that it could activate multiple times per round in each instance when a hit would place the barb in a negative hit-point condition. As the original poster said no limits per rage are placed on this power.
Your post does make me wonder however.....Could this power potentially still be active on a negative condition Barb who is not taking additional damage? [ie Barb at negative 2 form a previous injury converts that damage to non-lethal in a round wherein no damage is recieved?)
|
|
Yeah... there's some interesting corner cases with Guarded Life. What about if the barbarian is at negative Hit Points, then revived with smelling salts (APG page 185)? Can he activate rage and convert his negative Hit Points to non-lethal at the rate of [level] points per turn?
The thing is, the extra Hit Points from rage-induced Con will tend to bring him up above negative anyway, in a lot of cases - even with 'basic' rage he's getting 2 extra Hit Points per hit die / level from rage-fuelled Con, but only converting 1 negative Hit Point per barbarian level into non-lethal with Guarded Life. That generally means there's not a lot of scope for Guarded Life doing any more than it's intended to do - which seems to be to give the raging barbarian a slim chance of not dying instantly when he's knocked down to negative Hit Points, KO'd, loses the rage, and then loses the extra 2 Hit Points per hit die... which is pretty lethal when it occurs. It's probably better to stick to Diehard, if you have it, and try to keep raging until you're healed.
Or a Barbarian / Inquistor who uses the judgment for fast healing to heal both lethal and nonlethal at the same time.
Or a Barbarian / Inquistor who uses the judgment for fast healing to heal both lethal and nonlethal at the same time.
Ooh. Cool.
Or a Barbarian / Inquistor who uses the judgment for fast healing to heal both lethal and nonlethal at the same time.Ooh. Cool.
Its not the most powerful combo ever but i will admit to thinking about grabbing some barbarian levels to go along with my travel domain.
My apologies to ProfPott regarding the Diehard/non-lethal damage interactions. I was assuming an invulnerable rager so converted non-lethal damage is dealt with by the archetypes superior DR [ie non-lethal DR =2* lethal DR] Diehard and GLife on a conventional Barb is certainly not optimal.
Consider this case however...Cora the level 20 invulnerable rager with the raging vitality feat has 30 hitpoints and is fighting a henchmen of Thelma-Doom. As a Barb she is easily hit for 50 damage. This is reduced to 40 via DR which is enough damage to place Cora at -10 hit points. GLife kicks in and 20 points of that damge becomes non-lethal and effectively disappears via archetype DR, the remaining 20 points of lethal damage leaves Cora at 10 hp (nice rage power). However the minion swings his mattock again and Cora at 10hp is hewn down to -10 hp (assuming that GLife again activates on a hit that would reduce our Barb to a negative number). So our Barb is preserved from death by the RP and flung into a corner and conveniently forgotten..(minions do that). In the next round on Coras turn she founds herself with: a negative hitpoint total,stable, and still raging. Glife then converts 20 points of lethal damage to non-lethal, which disappears leaving our heroic Cora with 10hp.... In a cut scene we see Cora's hand move and grasp her blade!!
Does the above scenario work?
|
|
Does the above scenario work?
Not really...
'... Subtract 1 from the damage the barbarian takes each time she is dealt damage from a weapon or natural attack...' (CRB page 34, under 'Damage Reduction').
With Guarded Life you've already taken the hit, and DR has done its bit, then if that damage has put you on negative Hit Points it's converted to non-lethal. DR doesn't apply again to this conversion.
So Cora gets hit for 50 points of damage. Then DR is applied, to make that a mere 40 points. That puts her at -10. She's level 20, so 20 points get converted to non-lethal damage - this non-lethal damage is due to the conversion, not another weapon or natural attack... in effect it's her own Rage Power which is inflicting non-lethal on her. She's now on 10 Hit Points, and 20 non-lethal. She falls unconscious. She stops raging. Since she's a level 20 Barbarian, she now loses the 80 extra hit points her +8 Con from Mighty Rage was giving her. She's now on -70 Hit Points and pretty much as dead as it's possible to be...
Guarded Life only really seems any use at low levels, since the infamous barbarian 'crash' for dropping out of rage (being the loss of Hit Points, rather than the fatigue... we can all live with a little fatigue...) quickly outpaces any effect the Guarded Life could possibly have.
Barbarians without Guarded Life face the exact same issue, of course - once the extra Hit Points from rage-fuelled Con outpace the character's own basic Con score, then getting dropped to negative Hit Points and passing out means instant death. Greater Rage and Mighty Rage just make the crash worse (a lot worse... unless you somehow have more than 33 Con at level 11?).
(Note that, when raging, a level 20 barbarian like Cora is a 'dead woman walking' as soon as her Hit Points drop to 80 - her Con, because as soon as she's not raging, she's dead. In the example fight she was on 30 Hit Points, and should have been running towards her party healers screaming for help two or three turns back... ;) )
The trick is to a) never let your Hit Points get this low or, if it can't be avoided, b) do not pass out! Point b) is traditionally achieved by taking (Endurance and) Diehard, so when you're battered down into the negatives you can at least remain raging, and have a chance of being healed before you run out of steam. Guarded Life blocks this option, so is probably not worth taking if you're going to take Diehard (or if you plan on playing above, say, level 7 or so...).
Guarded Life offers limited utility at low levels, and no help at all at mid-to high levels - it just doesn't scale the way it needs to in order to do what it seems intended to do. If it was worded in such a way that it also converted Hit Points dropped further into negative by the post-rage crash into non-lethal (and a lot more of them than 1 per level) then it'd be great... but it doesn't, so it's not... ;)
IMHO, natch... :)