Which Int-based spellcasting free archetype would have access to these spells: Object-Reading, Locate, Ring of Truth, Discern Lies, Scouting Eye, Pinpoint, Proliferating Eyes

[BG2]

I am playing an Investigator Interrogator in a free-archetype Pathfinder 2e campaign (we get archetype feats at every other level, starting from level 2).
Which Intelligence-based free archetype (preferably with spontaneous spellcasting since that is more flexible, but prepared is OK too) would give me access to most of these detective-like spells I have found so far: Object-Reading, Locate, Ring of Truth, Discern Lies, Scouting Eye, Pinpoint, Proliferating Eyes, Detect Alignment, Impecable Flow?

I am new to Pathfinder, so I don’t have a grasp of which spellcasting archetypes get access to which spells, and the Archives of Nethys pages on these spells also don’t list which classes and archetypes have access to these spells.

Somewhat unrelated to the question above, I have also considered taking the Alchemist Archetype, just because it would allow me to craft the Silvertongue Mutagen and get a bonus to Diplomacy and Intimidation (but since that would be the only boost to my detective abilities the Alchemist archetype would grant me, it isn’t that enticing). How many free archetype levels would I need to sink into the Alchemist to be able to craft the Major Silvertongue Mutagen?

[NorrKnekten]

You can look up the spells and see what traditions they belong to as that is listed within each spell.

There are no class-based spell-lists in this system, instead classes gain access to spells based on the tradition they gain from the class choices they make. The archetypes and classes do absolutely tell you which traditions they have access to.

Most of these spells are also uncommon, so they arent not really meant to be available at all times and can be restricted depending on what kind campaign the GM is running, Detect alignment also does not exist anymore and its replacements would only tell you about undead/fiends/Unholy clerics/champions. Otherwise it sounds like you might want a Witch, Bard or Sorcerer so you can get hold of the occult list since most of the spells you listed are available to the occult tradition.

For alchemist, The moment you pick up the dedication at level 2 you can start crafting 4 silvertongue per day, But you use Quick Alchemy to create items higher than your level, so the Major mutagens are not available until level 17.

[BG2]

I forgot to add Heroism and Greater Heroism to the list of spells as well (they would grant me a bonus to skill checks like Diplomacy, which is important for my Investigator character).

[BG2]

NorrKnekten wrote:

You can look up the spells and see what traditions they belong to as that is listed within each spell.

There are no class-based spell-lists in this system, instead classes gain access to spells based on the tradition they gain from the class choices they make. The archetypes and classes do absolutely tell you which traditions they have access to.

Most of these spells are also uncommon, so they arent not really meant to be available at all times and can be restricted depending on what kind campaign the GM is running, Detect alignment also does not exist anymore and its replacements would only tell you about undead/fiends/Unholy clerics/champions. Otherwise it sounds like you might want a Witch, Bard or Sorcerer so you can get hold of the occult list since most of the spells you listed are available to the occult tradition.

For alchemist, The moment you pick up the dedication at level 2 you can start crafting 4 silvertongue per day, But you use Quick Alchemy to create items higher than your level, so the Major mutagens are not available until level 17.

Would I need to take any other Alchemist feats beyond the dedication feat to be able to eventaully get access to crafting the Major mutagens?

[Teridax]

Psychic or Witch multiclass archetype. All of the spells mentioned except for impeccable flow are spells in the occult tradition, and both the Psychic and Witch can use Intelligence for spellcasting and cast occult spells.

A few more pointers:

1. Spellcasters in Pathfinder cast spells of a particular spell tradition, instead of having a specific spell list. The occult tradition is full of mental and soul-affecting magic, for instance, whereas primal magic has you wield the power of nature, the elements, and life itself.

2. Archetypes in Pathfinder don’t use up class levels, but instead take up some of your class feats. The Free Archetype variant gives you extra feats just for an archetype, and you can still use your normal class feats for archetype feats if you want.

Thus, your Interrogator Investigator could get a Psychic or occult Witch archetype for occult spells, and later on spend some more class feats on an Alchemist archetype to be able to make some mutagens. I’d recommend getting both the Alchemist Dedication and Advanced Alchemy feats, which would let you use Silvertongue Mutagens whenever you’d need them. Thankfully, once you learn the formula for any version of a mutagen, you can make that mutagen in all of its versions available to you, without any additional feat investment.

[Mathmuse]

As others have explained, spells fall into traditions and spellcasters can learn any common spells of their tradition. Uncommon spells are usually available, too, but the Uncommon trait means that the GM can forbid that spell. Also, some Uncommon spells are restricted to certain classes, but none on BG2's list fall into that group.

Object Reading, Spell 1, Traditions occult, also granted as divine to clerics of Aerekostes and Cosmic Caravan
Detect Alignment, Uncommon Spell 1, Traditions divine, occult
Impeccable Flow, Uncommon Spell 2, Traditions arcane, divine
Locate, Uncommon Spell 3, Traditions arcane, divine, occult
Ring of Truth, Uncommon Spell 3, Traditions divine, occult
Discern Lies, Uncommon Spell 4, Traditions arcane, divine, occult
Scouting Eye, Spell 5, Traditions arcane, divine, occult
Pinpoint, Uncommon Spell 8, Traditions arcane, divine, occult
Proliferating Eyes, Spell 9, Traditions arcane, divine, occult

Let me add some caveats. Alignment was dropped in the PF2 Remastering, so unless the campaign is using pre-Remastered Legacy rules, Detect Alignment has nothing to detect. And spellcasting from an archetype goes up to only 8th rank, so Proliferating Eyes is not available via archetype.

Let me explain how spellcasting archetypes usually work. The 2nd-level Dedication feat that begins the archetype grants 2 cantrips of the class's tradition. A 4th-level Basic Spellcasting feat grants basic spellcating benefits. These basic spellcasting benefits start wtih a single 1st-rank spell slot and a spell to fill that slot. The different classes offer different ways to learn additional spells, but for a spontaneous class, the gains from spellcasting benefits are the only way. At 6th level, that 4th-level feat also grants you a 2nd-rank spell slot, and at 8th level it grants you a 3rd-rank spell slot, no additional feat required. At 10th level, nothing happens. Instead, at 12th level the spellcasting archetype offers an Expert Spellcasting feat that grants a 4th-rank slot at 12th level, a 5th-rank slot at 14th level, and an 6th-rank slot at 16th level. At 18th level the spellcasting archetype offers a Master Spellcasting feat that grants a 7th-rank slot at 18th level and an 8th-rank slot at 20th level. The archetype does not provide a way to get 9th-rank or 10th-rank spells.

Suppose BG2's investigator decided on Witch Multiclass Archetype, because Witch is an Int-based spellcaster that with the right patron can learn occult spells. At 2nd level, the investigator gains a familiar and one cantrip--fewer cantrips than most archetypes because of getting the familiar, too. Though the investigator can prepare only one cantrip a day, they and their familiar can use the Learn a Spell activity to learn a variety of occult cantrips. At 4th level, the investigator takes Basic Witch Spellcasting to learn the Object Reading occult spell. Yep, the investigator has to wait for 4th level to gain the 1st spell on BG2's list.

At 6th level, the investigator with witch multiclass can learn a 2nd-rank spell, but not Impeccable Flow, because that is only in the arcane and divine traditions. At 8th level, the investigator can learn Locate and Ring of Truth. However, Basic Witch Spellcasting provides only common spells for free, and those two are uncommon. That means that the GM has to agree that the investigator found instructions on those spells in a library or from a fellow spellcaster and used the Learn a Spell activity. In summary, the investigator has to do a lot of research and study, but that should be routine for an investigator, right?

Fortunately, the investigator has an alternative route. They could buy a wand of the spell. A wand of a 3rd-rank spell, such as Locate, is an item 7 costing only 360 gp. GMs typically let 8th-level characters buy 7th-level items.

Meanwhile, if another party member is a divine or occult caster, that party member could have teamed up with the investigator to cast Locate or Ring of Truth back at 5th level. The investigator might decide that they themself don't need to learn the spell.

This character design has the investigator learning spells to accomplish tasks that an investigator is already good at. That is not an efficient strategy. On the other hand, the investigator could learn magic for other purposes, such as dealing damage with a spell when they rolled low on Devise a Stratagem, and the occasional casting of Object Reading would be for convenience rather than efficiency.

[Mathmuse]

BG2 wrote:

Somewhat unrelated to the question above, I have also considered taking the Alchemist Archetype, just because it would allow me to craft the Silvertongue Mutagen and get a bonus to Diplomacy and Intimidation (but since that would be the only boost to my detective abilities the Alchemist archetype would grant me, it isn’t that enticing). How many free archetype levels would I need to sink into the Alchemist to be able to craft the Major Silvertongue Mutagen?

I had to conduct some reseach on this question, because the pre-Remastered Dedications almost always had a clause, "Special You can't select another dedication feat until you have gained two other feats from the witch archetype." I noticed that the Remastered Witch archetype lacked it. That is because it moved into the rules. Page 215 of the Player Core under Dedication Details says, "Once you take a dedication feat, you can’t select a different dedication feat until you complete your dedication by taking two other feats from your current archetype." The Free Archetype rules on page 84 of the GM Core say, "If the group all has the same archetype or draws from a limited list, you might want to ignore the free archetype’s normal restriction of selecting a certain number of feats before taking a new archetype. That way a character can still pursue another archetype that also fits their character." I did that waiver in my Strength of Thousands campaign, which recommends giving all PCs a free wizard or druid archetype becuase they are students at a magic school. But it sounds like BG2's free archetype is not from a limited list.

The advantage of taking Alchemist Multiclass Dedication as a class-feat rather than Alchemical Crafting as a skill feat is that the multiclass alchemist can make four temporary alchemical items a day via versatile vials for free. That benefit is usually not worth the effort of juggling two archetypes.

The Alchemical Sciences Methodology for investigator also gives the versatile vials. But though bard feats offer Multifarious Muse feat 2 for a 2nd muse and druid offers Order Explorer feat 2 for a 2nd order, I don't see an investigator feat for a 2nd methodology.

EDIT: I am not an expert on alchemists. After reading Tridus's comment below, I checked the rules on mutagens and found, "Source Player Core 2 pg. 289 1.1
Mutagens are a special type of elixir that temporarily transmogrify the subject's body and mind. Typically, only alchemists have the expertise to craft mutagens."
Looks like Alchemist Multiclass Archetype is necessary for Silvertongue Mutagen.

SECOND EDIT: Further research revealed that alchemists have feats to get more out of mutagens, but non-alchemists with Alchemical Crafting can still make mutagens. Anyone know for sure?

[Tridus]

BG2 wrote:

Would I need to take any other Alchemist feats beyond the dedication feat to be able to eventaully get access to crafting the Major mutagens?

Technically no, but the Dedication only gives you Quick Alchemy so they'd only last a max of 10 minutes.

Taking the feat to gain Advanced Alchemy lets you create ones with full duration.

But Alchemist archetype no longer has a reduced recipe level limit.

[BG2]

Thanks everybody for taking the time to answer.
It seems that my options for an Int-based spellcasting archetype that has access to most of these spells would be Witch and maybe Psychic and Skysage.

It would be nice if there was a tool or an app that would allow you to build characters and automatically choose only the spells and alchemical formulas that are available to you based on your class and feats. The two tools I have tried out, pathbuilder2e.com and wanderersguide.app, unfortunately don’t seem to offer such a process for spells and alchemical formulas but only for feats and skills.
Do you know of some other tool that does allow full automatized options for character building, including the selection of spells and formulas available to you?

So, would taking the Alchemist Dedication plus the Advanced Alchemy feat give me access to all the formulas, including the Major mutagens and more advanced bombs, simply by gaining levels in my main, Investigator class? And would I in case of not taking any other Alchemist archetype feats fall behind in bomb potency DCs, which would make them useless at higher levels?

Similarly, if I dipped into the Alchemist archetype in a few free archetype levels, and therefore end up with fewer feats to spend on a spellcasting free archetype, would I fall behind on spell DC scalings for that class or would I only lose access to a few higher level spells and spell slots (which still isn’t a small thing)?

I will have to research how the Learn a Spell activity works and to which classes it is available (I’m guessing probably only to prepared casters).
I will also have to research wands, how many charges they have, and whether you need a feat like Trick magic Item to use them.

[Tridus]

BG2 wrote:

It would be nice if there was a tool or an app that would allow you to build characters and automatically choose only the spells and alchemical formulas that are available to you based on your class and feats. The two tools I have tried out, pathbuilder2e.com and wanderersguide.app, unfortunately don’t seem to offer such a process for spells and alchemical formulas but only for feats and skills.

Do you know of some other tool that does allow full automatized options for character building, including the selection of spells and formulas available to you?

Hero Lab Online does that, in that if something isn't currently valid for you it'll flag it with an error and you have the option to just filter those out (or leave them showing the errors). It's one of the reasons why it's the best character builder for PFS play by far: you can say "this is a PFS character" and it'll flag everything that isn't legal or needs a boon.

The downside is that as a paid option, it's significantly more expensive than the free options.

Quote:

So, would taking the Alchemist Dedication plus the Advanced Alchemy feat give me access to all the formulas, including the Major mutagens and more advanced bombs, simply by gaining levels in my main, Investigator class?

Yes. The item level of what you can make with Advanced & Quick Alchemy is your character level (and below). Formula acquisition works normally: you can buy/find them based on what your GM lets you get access to. There's no limits imposed by the archetype on this. As it's character level, it's your Investigator level. How many Alchemist feats you take does not impact this.

(You don't gain free ones at level up the way the class does, but formulae are generally not very expensive.)

Quote:

And would I in case of not taking any other Alchemist archetype feats fall behind in bomb potency DCs, which would make them useless at higher levels?

Since you get higher level bombs as you level, the bomb DC does scale. It doesn't scale as well as it does for the Alchemist class (who can substitute their class DC) unless you take the Powerful Alchemy archetype feat. But a greater dread ampule has a higher DC than a lesser one does, so you do get some scaling. (Also note that bombs are generally an attack roll to hit and the save would be on secondary effects, if any.)

Since the attack rolls are martial weapons and Investigator gets master in that, in terms of hitting things they should never be useless. But some of the DCs won't scale fast enough and will fall off eventually.

Quote:

Similarly, if I dipped into the Alchemist archetype in a few free archetype levels, and therefore end up with fewer feats to spend on a spellcasting free archetype, would I fall behind on spell DC scalings for that class or would I only lose access to a few higher level spells and spell slots (which still isn’t a small thing)?

Spellcasting archetypes already fall behind on proficiency vs true spellcasters, even if you get every feat you can. They never go past master proficiency and they get proficiency bumps significantly later than full casters do. If you're trying to use archetype spells against enemies with save DCs, you're going to find enemies succeeding a lot.

You only really need two extra feats from Alchemist: Advanced Alchemy and Efficient Alchemy. Those combine to give a massive boost in how much alchemy you get a day. So you still have plenty of feats left for caster things. :)

Quote:

I will have to research how the Learn a Spell activity works and to which classes it is available (I’m guessing probably only to prepared casters).

Learn a spell is available to everyone. It's just used more often on prepared casters because it's used to add things to your spellbook/familiar, so you can prepare them.

All casters can use it to learn an uncommon/rare spell, which then makes it available to them. Spontaneous casters can do this so they can add it to their repertoire (following the normal rules around that), and prepared casters can use it so they can pick it (by having it in their spellbook or for something like a Cleric, becoming an available pick).

Quote:

I will also have to research wands, how many charges they have, and whether you need a feat like Trick magic Item to use them.

Wands are 1/day. You can overcharge them and use them again, but there is a flat check for the wand being destroyed. I think it's DC 11. I very rarely see people do this.

Wands & Scrolls can be used if you have the spell available on your spell list. If you're an Arcane caster, "Arcane" is your spell list. You don't actually need to have it prepared. If it's an Arcane spell and you're an Arcane caster, you can use it. Note that there's no level restrictions on this, and that the remaster clarified that getting a spellcasting archetype is sufficient for this.

Trick Magic Item is required if you don't meet the above criteria. Ie: You're a Wizard trying to use a Divine scroll/wand.

Staves are a bit different because you need to prepare them, and that requires spell slots and access to at least one spell in the staff. You can only use the staff for spells of a rank you can cast, and you gain charges equal to your highest rank spell slot.

[Tridus]

Mathmuse wrote:

EDIT: I am not an expert on alchemists. After reading Tridus's comment below, I checked the rules on mutagens and found, "Source Player Core 2 pg. 289 1.1

Mutagens are a special type of elixir that temporarily transmogrify the subject's body and mind. Typically, only alchemists have the expertise to craft mutagens."
Looks like Alchemist Multiclass Archetype is necessary for Silvertongue Mutagen.

SECOND EDIT: Further research revealed that alchemists have feats to get more out of mutagens, but non-alchemists with Alchemical Crafting can still make mutagens. Anyone know for sure?

I hate using the words "flavour text"... but that's the only sentence anywhere in the rules that suggests there is a limit on crafting them, and I have no idea what "typically" means or what an atypical situation would look like.

I guess it is fair to say that "typically Alchemists are the ones with Alchemical Crafting"? But I can't find anything to actually stop a Wizard who takes the Alchemical Crafting skill feat from crafting mutagens if they want to.

I treat them like any other alchemical item: you need alchemical crafting to create them and usual rarity rules apply. That means if you have alchemical crafting, you get the formula, and you're the appropriate level, you're good to go. That's Alchemists (or Alchemist archetype) a majority of the time, but if someone else does it I don't see why that sentence would actually stop them.

[Easl]

Just to add to what Tridus said, when you get the Alchemist archetype you learn 4 formulas for that, +4 more for advanced alchemy, for a total of 8. There are no 'class only' formulas, so the archetype lets you pick freely from level 1's and eventually learn any you want (subject to the GM's rules on uncommons and rares). But AFAIK you do not start off knowing every single formula of your level or lower - you start with 8, and must acquire other formulas via loot, purchase, other feats, etc.

As Mathmuse implies, the spellcasting archetypes won't give you a lot of slots. You can eventually get access to most of the spells you've listed but you won't be casting all of them every day. It's neat to add investigative spellcasting to the martial, but most of the time you will be resolving those same problems with feats and skill checks. PF2E archetypes are not multiclassing. They are generally far less powerful. It's actually one of the ways the alchemist archetype stands out, that you get so much capability for just the standard archetype investment.

[Finoan]

Tridus wrote:

Mathmuse wrote:

"Source Player Core 2 pg. 289 1.1

Mutagens are a special type of elixir that temporarily transmogrify the subject's body and mind. Typically, only alchemists have the expertise to craft mutagens."
Looks like Alchemist Multiclass Archetype is necessary for Silvertongue Mutagen.

I treat them like any other alchemical item: you need alchemical crafting to create them and usual rarity rules apply. That means if you have alchemical crafting, you get the formula, and you're the appropriate level, you're good to go. That's Alchemists (or Alchemist archetype) a majority of the time, but if someone else does it I don't see why that sentence would actually stop them.

Yeah. It seems a strange thing to add to the Mutagen trait in the Remaster. Not only is it a bit vague because of that 'typically' in there, but it is directly contradictory with the crafting and rarity rules.

The only thing that I can think of is that anyone with the Alchemical Crafting feat could be called an 'alchemist' even if they are not mechanically an Alchemist Class character.

A Witch or Wizard (or Bard or Rogue or Fighter or anyone else) that takes Alchemical Crafting absolutely can craft Mutagens - as long as they meet the other requirements such as level requirements and rarity access.

[Ravingdork]

I seriously doubt it was referring to the alchemist class in this case.

[BG2]

Thanks for the further answers Tridus, Easl and Finnoan. That cleared up a lot of things, I appreciate it.

Pathfinder seems like a pretty complex system. But I guess the upside is that it offers a lot of options for character classes, races, feats, and everything else – more than D&D at least.