Updated product description with final image and sample images.
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I like them. For a generic Dungeon it is cool. :)
I for one was not expecting what I am seeing but then again how does one expect something from an Arcane dungeon type of set up. It just is not done. So this one might go over a little tough as a lot of people just have different expectations of what is going to be in there.
What I am seeing are teleport nodules and the like. Very cool! :)
Thanks!
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The side with the circular chambers is ok, but a bit too specific/situational.
The other side with all the colorful rooms would have made a great "Map Pack" product, where you could pick and choose and use them sparingly. All together on one big labyrinth.. not for me.
That said, I'm not a fan of the big, multi-room labyrinth in the flip mat line. I think the flip mats work best for BIG locations. Map packs work good for smaller locations. I have on occasion cut and pasted single rooms from the various Dungeon flip mats and printed them up as single rooms, to great success, but I'm kind of defeating some of the purpose of the flipmat (in my opinion.)
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I agree, not a fan of this one at all. The large room side is ok, but not enough interesting stuff going on there. The other side is more problematic. As a Flip Mat, it should be something that you lay out so all the players can see it. But doing so shows the players that a) the lights are obviously teleporters because of all the rooms with no other entrance or exit, and b) they can see just what color they need to touch to get to each room! I would NEVER lay out a single map with all the rooms on it like this if I were doing a teleporting dungeon puzzle, it ruins all the mystery and suspense.
There are still months to go until May, I'd suggest changing this to a map pack format or scrapping this and going with something else. Seeing everything laid out at once ruins the 1 type of dungeon it's designed for, and it's not usable with anything else.
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"There are still months to go until May, I'd suggest changing this to a map pack format or scrapping this and going with something else. Seeing everything laid out at once ruins the 1 type of dungeon it's designed for, and it's not usable with anything else."
I agree, but it's probably too late.
Flip Mat "Battlefield" looks awesome, and is EXACTLY where this line of products should go.
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I agree, not a fan of this one at all. The large room side is ok, but not enough interesting stuff going on there. The other side is more problematic. As a Flip Mat, it should be something that you lay out so all the players can see it. But doing so shows the players that a) the lights are obviously teleporters because of all the rooms with no other entrance or exit, and b) they can see just what color they need to touch to get to each room! I would NEVER lay out a single map with all the rooms on it like this if I were doing a teleporting dungeon puzzle, it ruins all the mystery and suspense.
There are still months to go until May, I'd suggest changing this to a map pack format or scrapping this and going with something else. Seeing everything laid out at once ruins the 1 type of dungeon it's designed for, and it's not usable with anything else.
They only update the final cover once the product has been sent to the printer, so it's definateley too late to make changes.
Hate to admit it, but I'm pretty disappointed in this one as well. I've bought several of the other generic dungeon type flip mats released before this and love them all. In fact, the dungeon types are my favorite maps.
But I'd prefer another blank flip mat or one of the basic terrain multipack mats to this.
Hey everyone,
With quite a few dungeon Flip-Mats under my belt and reading lots of comments on what folks like and don't like about the dungeons in particular, I tried something different with this Flip-Mat. Lots of folks complain that you have to put down the entire map, and the players can see what comes after. I designed this modularly, on the folds, so you could use pieces or unveil certain parts of the map as needed.
As for the colors and such, I put them in for the GM to riff off of. You can use it as teleportation nooks or whatever else. I tried to make them general enough that you could have them do what you want, but themed appropriately so you could use the entire map logically.
If you're not thrilled by the final design, I'm sorry. I was attempting to do something that I thought those who complained about aspects of these maps may enjoy. If it is not your cup of tea...or not the cup of tea of most people who buy these things, I'll not try it again.
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Hi Stephan! It's good that you thought about designing it along the folds, but just how well will it lay flat if all the other sections are folded under it? It can be slightly difficult getting a Flipmat to lay nice and flat even when it's fully open. And I have folded uncoated paper maps (from 4e Encounters) to show only 1/4 at a time and it never stayed down nice and flat, figures near the edge would slide into other squares or off the map every time someone bumped the table. How much more difficult will it be to get the thicker, coated paper of a Flipmat to lay flat when half the creases are going to be against the natural bends?
Oh well, if it's too late to do anything, better luck next time. I really like a lot of the Flipmats and look forward to future ones.
Say, would it be possible to show the concept sketches for future mats to the public to get feedback before it goes to the printer? That might have helped in this case, and could improve future mats...
Hi Stephan! It's good that you thought about designing it along the folds, but just how well will it lay flat if all the other sections are folded under it? It can be slightly difficult getting a Flipmat to lay nice and flat even when it's fully open. And I have folded uncoated paper maps (from 4e Encounters) to show only 1/4 at a time and it never stayed down nice and flat, figures near the edge would slide into other squares or off the map every time someone bumped the table. How much more difficult will it be to get the thicker, coated paper of a Flipmat to lay flat when half the creases are going to be against the natural bends?
Oh well, if it's too late to do anything, better luck next time. I really like a lot of the Flipmats and look forward to future ones.
Say, would it be possible to show the concept sketches for future mats to the public to get feedback before it goes to the printer? That might have helped in this case, and could improve future mats...
First, it is Stephen...like Stephen Colbert or Stephen King. Sorry...just a pet peeve of mine. :)
It will lie as flat as it can. I didn't have much problem with it when I was testing the concept, but mileage will vary. If you didn't like how uncoated maps lie flat, you will probably not be happy with this one. The coating provides an incredible versatile surface for modification...but it does have its drawbacks. We enjoy the benefits and live with the downsides, or at least try to minimize them wherever possible. I think in this case, the good far outways the downside.
My advice: Mock people for bumping the table...or growl at them. That seems to work for me. :)
Lastly, we really don't have time in our schedules to put the rough sketches online for review, and even if we did, that may be a recipe for product disaster. Folks don't agree even in the best circumstances, and while the few posts on this board have responded unfavorably to this particular map, it may be just perfect for someone else's needs. I think we will keep on going the way we have been. You've liked most of them, and I will continue to endeavor to create maps that most people like most of the time, while taking chances with other maps and seeing how they sell.
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Hey everyone,
With quite a few dungeon Flip-Mats under my belt and reading lots of comments on what folks like and don't like about the dungeons in particular, I tried something different with this Flip-Mat. Lots of folks complain that you have to put down the entire map, and the players can see what comes after. I designed this modularly, on the folds, so you could use pieces or unveil certain parts of the map as needed.
As for the colors and such, I put them in for the GM to riff off of. You can use it as teleportation nooks or whatever else. I tried to make them general enough that you could have them do what you want, but themed appropriately so you could use the entire map logically.
If you're not thrilled by the final design, I'm sorry. I was attempting to do something that I thought those who complained about aspects of these maps may enjoy. If it is not your cup of tea...or not the cup of tea of most people who buy these things, I'll not try it again.
Stephen, I appreciate that you are trying new things personally. I still plan on getting this map to see its usefulness and as you pointed out with the sections being contained within the folds that is something that would have remained unknown had we passed judgement simply based on how it looks. Please continue to be creative, innovative, and experimenting on these maps as it is all to the benefit of the gaming community. You are doing a great job. Take care good sir.
Yeah, this is probably my least favorite.
I don't think I could use it.
Folks don't agree even in the best circumstances, and while the few posts on this board have responded unfavorably to this particular map, it may be just perfect for someone else's needs. I think we will keep on going the way we have been. You've liked most of them, and I will continue to endeavor to create maps that most people like most of the time, while taking chances with other maps and seeing how they sell.
I'm glad to hear that. There's the odd miss for me (the vehicles map pack will never get use at my table) but I'm very glad you're trying out new approaches as well as continuing "safe" maps.
Fwiw, I like the dungeons - I lie them flat and cover the various rooms with large size post-it notes and it works well for me. This one will get use at some point, I'm very confident.
Well, it is quite...colorful. :)
Dungeon flip-mats aren't may favorite -- I think dungeons can work better as map packs -- so I'd probably skip this one if I didn't have a sub. But I do appreciate attempts to innovate, and I understand that not all of them will be home runs.
I think flip-mats are very clever, but ultimately transitional product. I fully expect that in ten (or maybe twenty) years, we'll all be using some sort of digital, in-person representation. To me, computer assisted play, in-person or otherwise, is the path forward for RPGs to thrive, even in the face of MMOs. But that's another thread...
While noting the complaints, I think I'll be picking this one up for my existing game. I need a mind- wrecking portal labyrinth within about 6 or 7 sessions and with the colors represented here, it's basic enough to look logical and still confuse players with some hidden complexity. This should work perfectly if I add some bizarre runes with the magic if wet-erase.
While noting the complaints, I think I'll be picking this one up for my existing game. I need a mind- wrecking portal labyrinth within about 6 or 7 sessions and with the colors represented here, it's basic enough to look logical and still confuse players with some hidden complexity. This should work perfectly if I add some bizarre runes with the magic if wet-erase.
Excellent...that was my design goal for this one. I hope your session goes well.
Thanks, I'm sure it will. I'm thinking about using partial rune images that get combined on the floor panels to unlock a way forward and out. While mildly stressful, the "puzzle" should be a lot harder to solve by trial-and-error when the players are being chased by the animated dead of those who never made it out alive...
The concept is actually a pretty good one! Personally, I think I have enough flip mats and map packs to pick from and overlay. Plus, I use a piece of black silk fabric (well, fake silk) as a fog of war. With those I can keep the players pretty much in the dark as to the layout, but this is a great idea!
I think the colors/patterns are what kills it for me, and it seems a lot of others. First, the color choice. Just-no. I think everybody had the same reaction when the page loaded:
"In the name of all that is holy what in the @#$! is that, a dance floor!?"
Second, why put any color at all? You can write on these with wet/rdy erase right? You could just "code" it yourself. If you mean to hide it from the players, you can jot the "linking" down somewhere. Without the coloring, it wouldn't necessarily have to be an arcane dungeon, it could serve as a mundane one as well and they could just be doorways, etc.
I really appreciate that you joined the discussion too, Stephen. See what happens when you listen to the customer? Web 2.0 for the win! Only kidding. I would definitely not give up on the modular fold-based thing. That is killer.
As for the colors-I think Ral Partha made a John Travolta figure.
Or was it grenadier?
Squares and colors, Man. There's only one vision that invokes.
I now will have the Queen song in my head all day. . .
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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As I mentioned on another thread, I've seen one GM who lays the dungeon map out flat and then covers it with a couple hundred black construction-paper circles. Then he brushes them aside to reveal parts of the map.
It's versatile, lets the players see parts of rooms if their light doesn't reach the far wall, and also re-covers and hides parts of the dungeon aftr the PCs move past them.
As I mentioned on another thread, I've seen one GM who lays the dungeon map out flat and then covers it with a couple hundred black construction-paper circles. Then he brushes them aside to reveal parts of the map.
It's versatile, lets the players see parts of rooms if their light doesn't reach the far wall, and also re-covers and hides parts of the dungeon aftr the PCs move past them.
I saw that post and stole the idea, except that instead of construction paper I used thin black plastic sheets (taken from plastic Wal-Mart report folders @ $.59 a folder). All told, the material cost about eight bucks for more circles than I'll ever need at once, and the plastic is more durable.
I like that this one is different.
See, for my primary campaign, I write all my material from scratch. Thus, I can easily turn this into a unique location such as under an abandoned wizard's tower, etc.
Stephen: Remember that people far more often go to the effort to post when they want to complain. When they're happy, they just stumble off with a smile and don't think that their positive words might be just as useful (or more) than an angry post about how useless something is.
Frankly, I think this map will be more useful than the Kickstarter Thornkeep one, because the Thornkeep one is so very specific to that one dungeon and will be hard to reuse.
Anyways, I'm perfectly happy with this one. Sure, I find the outdoor ones extremely useful also, but even more useful to me is a mix of many different sorts of things.
I like that this one is different.
Stephen: Remember that people far more often go to the effort to post when they want to complain. When they're happy, they just stumble off with a smile and don't think that their positive words might be just as useful (or more) than an angry post about how useless something is.
Oh, I'm well aware of this. I also both enjoy (because I'm a sick, sick man) and am often enlightened by complaints about products. Every comment helps me be a better designer, so I welcome both, knowing that I will read more complaints than praises.
But I'm human, so I do enjoy the occasional well thought-out praise.
I'm glad you can use the map. We always shoot to make our products as useful as possible.
I'll admit that I was a bit startled to see the jelly-bean colors of this one. But I almost immediately began to wonder how I could use the colors in a story: three schools of magic; three alignments; three rival demons? I think this has a lot of cool built into it despite the super- bright colors.
So has anyone come up with a plan for this dungeon they'd like to share?
I'll admit that I was a bit startled to see the jelly-bean colors of this one. But I almost immediately began to wonder how I could use the colors in a story: three schools of magic; three alignments; three rival demons? I think this has a lot of cool built into it despite the super- bright colors.
So has anyone come up with a plan for this dungeon they'd like to share?
Awesome! Glad to hear it. That was the plan on this one. I would also love to hear about how people use this map or plan to use it.
I'm still trying to come up with ideas, myself. But here are a few overly-complicated thoughts I have bouncing around in my head...
1) "Dance Floor" room - the floor seems to be a polished color-tinted mirror-like surface, but when you walk out onto it, you see reflections below of all the other squares that are the same color. (All squares of the same color are adjacent to one another - including for melee, ranged; but for overflow of area-effect spells ONLY if they originate in that-color squares)
2) The various pedestals with buttons of a color - perhaps these work like when you have multiple light switches that control the same light fixture. A bad guy can press the button on one of them, empowering all locations in the dungeon of the matching color so that damage is dealt to those in/adjacent. A PC pressing a second button (so two are pressed at the same time) toggles it to OFF until the bad guy releases his button, toggling it back ON until the PC releases his button, etc. (That is, if an odd number of buttons of a given color are pressed, that color does damage; if an even color, incl. 0, then no damage.) This could be particularly cool if the PCs have no way at first to know about the bad guy in the final room pressing one of these buttons at a time, so that it seems completely arbitrary.
3) The huge room looks to me like summoning circles/circles of protection, with force fields to help keep the bad summoned things contained. Perhaps in order to free the imprisoned summoned things, you have to push ALL the buttons of that color at the same time (requiring the PCs to get here and figure it out, then split up throughout the complex to perform this task).
4) What are those mirror-critters called? Nerra? (Something like that.) This seems like the perfect place for some of them as guardians.
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The Flip-Mats have two goals that are at least partially at odds with each other: generic enough for multiple uses, and visually interesting enough to grab people at first sight. This one leans towards the latter, IMO.
I really do appreciate the design choice of breaking the rooms up along the folds. Kudos.
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Stephen Thank you for trying something new.
I happen to like the flip map line. I have lots of flip maps. They are stacked in the middle of my gaming table in my living room.
This looks like a fun one. I'm looking forward to using it in one of my games ..
Last weekend i needed to put together a "one shot" to give my normal GM a rest.
I began going through the flip maps and I found the "ancient Dungeon" flip map, the ones with the bull motif on the floors.
I also grabbed the desert flip map, the one with the sphinx on it.
The Flip maps made it very easy to make a quick dungeon.
All I had to do was think of a theme..I looked at the little bulls on the flagstones in the floors of the corridors and "classic near east dungeon" came to mind and I and ran with it. The mc guffin i came up with
My players really liked the maps. When I commented that hey had been trecking through the desert and learned to check their boots in the morning for scorpions. One of the players asked, you mean like the ones on the map? And much to my surprise there were little black scorpions on the map. A little later on my players after fending off an attack of a Minotaur and Gelatinous cube with their 4th level party noticed the bulls on the floors of the Ancient Dungeon.....and said " oh god we should have known this place was going to be full of minotaurs...look at all of the bulls on the floors"!
In short they enjoyed the flip maps.
Stephen I am looking forward to using your arcane flip map in the future, it looks like it would be great for a wizard's maze.
Just got my copy today and the idea of breaking the dungeon up along the folds is a good one. As for the actual folding process that was used in the production of this month's Flip-Mat, it really mauls the map.
Whereas previous maps have been fan-fold along each axis (i.e. each third is folded in a different direction), this time all of the folds were done in the same direction like if you were folding a flag. This simply puts too much strain on the map and the result is that it ends up horribly dented and crushed in spots.
I really hope that subsequent maps will return to the prior folding methods as this really lowers the presentation value. :(
EDIT: I also want to add that this is not a case of the product being damaged during shipping — the slip cover that encloses the flip mat is pristine with no dents or warping of any kind.
Just got my copy today and the idea of breaking the dungeon up along the folds is a good one. As for the actual folding process that was used in the production of this month's Flip-Mat, it really mauls the map.
Whereas previous maps have been fan-fold along each axis (i.e. each third is folded in a different direction), this time all of the folds were done in the same direction like if you were folding a flag. This simply puts too much strain on the map and the result is that it ends up horribly dented and crushed in spots.
I really hope that subsequent maps will return to the prior folding methods as this really lowers the presentation value. :(
EDIT: I also want to add that this is not a case of the product being damaged during shipping — the slip cover that encloses the flip mat is pristine with no dents or warping of any kind.
I wouldn't call it warping. At least in my case. Pretty nasty deep creases where the pane has pretty much folded back onto itself. Hopefully CS is on it.
I'd also like to add that the colors are not nearly as "bad" on the physical product as they look on the preview images. You can see the underlying map, and also the intended effects of mist, smoke, energy. etc much better. In the preview image, you can't see all the detail and it sort of looks like a child was let loose with a pastel on a map.
On the subject of minute detail that you can't see in the preview, the mosaic tile texture on the floor looks flippin' awesome!
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I have to agree with Zyphon with both the good and the bad.
The good: The colors look much less 'disco' on the map then the preview (and even the first look at the pdf) made me assume. The detail is great.
The bad: The damage caused by the cardstock issue looks really bad (on my map). Even if I manage to straighten it out (and I doubt I will), it will still look badly damaged.
Since I was unfortunate to get a badly damages Thornkeep map (that was replaced, sadly with another damaged map, although the new one wasn't that bad and I didn't ask for another replacement) and now a badly damaged map with pretty much no chance for a undamaged replacement due to cardstock issues, I will hold out for the basic Terrain map in August for a decision if the map subscription is still worth its price :-(.
I'll admit that I was a bit startled to see the jelly-bean colors of this one. But I almost immediately began to wonder how I could use the colors in a story: three schools of magic; three alignments; three rival demons? I think this has a lot of cool built into it despite the super- bright colors.
So has anyone come up with a plan for this dungeon they'd like to share?
Actually yes, yes I have a plan for this one ... and I'll happily share it with the "group". ;)
I just started an Eberron group - utilizing the PFRPG rules but the Eberron setting (and also thinking of converting the Artificer class, treating it as an alternate class of the Alchemist - more on that later).
Anyway - I plan to run only a couple of the published Eberron modules and at this point I'll "spoiler" the rest ... Thursday-Knights - KEEP OUT!
At least, that's the plan. :)
Saddens me to say this after subscribing to the maps for years. I'm not a fan of the design and it arrived damaged. Supposedly the next one will be damaged as well. Apologies are good but no offer of credit? Sorry, subscription is no more.
Update: Just received an email from Customer Service stating that a $5 credit has been issued to the accounts of those who purchased this Flip-Mat either directly or via subscription. Furthermore, in light of the warping issue, it appears that Paizo has opted to delay and re-print the subsequent Flip-Mat (Thieves' Guild) to avoid a repeat of the same problem.
While I can't speak for others, I appreciate the show of good-will in issuing the credit, and I'm even more impressed that Paizo is going thru the added cost of reprinting a completed product. Good on Paizo for taking the high road! :)
Good solution to the problem.
So is this warping a problem with all the Arcane flip mats I tried twice at the local store and they were damaged is that how they all are?
The warping is an issue with the card stock used to print these maps.
I just took another look at mine. Its been flat since I first purchased it a month or so ago. The normal folds are more pronounced and there are a few additional creases that appear to be caused by the thicker card stock.
On the whole the map is still usable. The problem with my map is mostly aesthetic.
I am happy that the card stock issue has been addressed and am confident this issue won't happen again.
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Update: Just received an email from Customer Service stating that a $5 credit has been issued to the accounts of those who purchased this Flip-Mat either directly or via subscription. Furthermore, in light of the warping issue, it appears that Paizo has opted to delay and re-print the subsequent Flip-Mat (Thieves' Guild) to avoid a repeat of the same problem.
While I can't speak for others, I appreciate the show of good-will in issuing the credit, and I'm even more impressed that Paizo is going thru the added cost of reprinting a completed product. Good on Paizo for taking the high road! :)
Likewise.
I find the creased maps eminently usable, but nonetheless it's a pretty classy response to the feedback.
Saddens me to say this after subscribing to the maps for years. I'm not a fan of the design and it arrived damaged. Supposedly the next one will be damaged as well. Apologies are good but no offer of credit? Sorry, subscription is no more.
Well, it took five weeks, but since you guys have decided to offer credit and not send out another damaged map I may renew my maps subscription. Still hard not to feel a bit burned by the initial hardball response from customer service.
