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I create a new topic because the discussion about this point is in a completely unrelated topic.
I don't consider myself neurodivergent. I hope I won't hurt anyone with this post.
When I built my Witchwarper for the SFS playtest I played last week, I took a Paradox, Ancestry and such and then reached the point where I had to choose my Anchor. Reading the mechanical effects, I chose Focal Point. Then reading the description I decided that no. I nearly ended up with no Anchor (I chose Core Memories without much joy).
Clearly, I was unsettled by the neurodivergent vibe of most anchors (especially Tangible Object). I don't want to be this guy who portrays a neurodivergent character without being neurodivergent. Or, at least, if I do it it's with care and input from neurodivergent people, not because an ability that will be useful twice in the campaign says so.
It is easy to find non-neurodivergent explanations for the Anchors. The Tangible Object can for example be a magic or technological item with the power to anchor you to reality. And I'd love to have such explanations next to the neurodivergent ones. Or other Anchors that are not about neurodivergence. Anyway, I'd like it to be an option and not forced on me.
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Thank you for this. I think the above shows the risk that comes with heavily coding a character class as neurodivergent, because not only can it make neurodivergent people uncomfortable, it can also create problems for neurotypical people who don't want to misrepresent what it's like to be neurodivergent, yet find themselves forced to navigate a character class that's heavily coded as neurodivergent right down to their core mechanics if they ever want to play it for other reasons, such as a really awesome theme or playstyle.
I also think the OP proposes a fairly good method for allowing players to opt into neurodivergent characters without railroading them into it: having character options that can be easily flavored as working for neurodivergent people, without clumsily making it that option's entire thing, allows everyone to pick what they want from those options. For instance, some broadly-defined object that lets you anchor yourself to reality is great, because it's just as easy to flavor that as the little spinning top in Inception as it is to flavor it as a fidget toy. Having an intense special interest as an anchor, by contrast, is much more difficult to dissociate from the context of a neurodivergent person. It is also why I'd rather have anchors be feats, i.e. more minor options that a character can choose to have or not, than core class features, where you're effectively forced to opt into the thing if you want to play the class.
Beyond the discussion of neurodivergence, I genuinely do love the Witchwarper's theme. Being a living paradox who may even be from another world is an incredibly cool character fantasy that I've been wanting to see realized in a TTRPG for years. That in itself is a fine theme to develop on, and I really don't think that class needs to be explicitly made to "invite" neurodivergence in order to appeal to a lot of neurodivergent players who might relate to the general vibes of parallel realities, alienation from the world around us, and seeing the universe through a different lens. I look forward to playing an autistic Analyst Witchwarper with a special interest in vidgames; I just hope it will be up to me, and not the way the class is written, to decide how to encode my character's neurodivergence into their roleplay and by how much.
I want to preface this by saying that I don't mean to belittle or contradict people's issues with anchors as currently presented, those criticisms are valid and understandable. This is just my own two Credits on the topic. I'm neurodivergent myself and personally I don't mind their current implementation at all. Still, I think they could be massaged into something more palattable with slightly less autism-coded descriptions even without making the mechanic optional. On a basic level, anchors make sense for the flavor of the class: You're fundamentally out of sync with reality and need something to keep you in the here and now. Not much more to it. And importantly, all of the anchors in this book (yes, even Focal Point) could be worked into something that, in my opinion, doesn't necessarily suggest neurodivergence either.
Core Memory is the easiest one, anyone can have nostalgic, traumatic, or otherwise important memories of something or other that you could tie it into. Tangible Object is already more difficult with how it's described, but your object of choice could just as well be a wedding ring, childhood plush, or your lucky t-shirt. Focal Point is indeed probably the most difficult, but still not impossible. You could describe your character mentally reciting mathematical, physical, or arcane truths, visualizing sheet music for a song they know how to play, or going through a religious prayer.
Of all the playtest classes Witchwarper is the one I have the most stock in, because it's a perfect fit for a character concept I've had for ages (which I'm super glad about because I really didn't want to play a Wizard), and anchors are a really big part of that. I understand the reason others are dissatisfied with them, but I think the fix could potentially be a lot more simple than making them a feat tax. That said I could also see the value in an "Unanchored" option that's somewhat similar to Frenzy Barbarian in giving you simpler bonuses for simpler gameplay, and I wouldn't be devastated or anything if they just became a level 1 class feat instead. I'd still want to play it more than Wizard I'll tell you that much.
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I don't consider myself neurodivergent. I hope I won't hurt anyone with this post.
I am neurodivergent. I am certainly not offended by the discussion you are bringing up.
It is easy to find non-neurodivergent explanations for the Anchors. The Tangible Object can for example be a magic or technological item with the power to anchor you to reality. And I'd love to have such explanations next to the neurodivergent ones. Or other Anchors that are not about neurodivergence. Anyway, I'd like it to be an option and not forced on me.
I also think it is easy to find plenty of explanations for needing - or rather wanting and using - an Anchor. The only place that I see neurodivergence called out specifically is in the sidebar about playtesting the Witchwarper. And there it mentions that you can lean into the concept as much or as little as you are comfortable with.
For example, the Tangible Object Anchor reminds me of the objects that the characters use in the movie Inception.
Core Memories Anchor: How about The Wizard of Oz and the repeated phrase of "There's no place like home"?
Developer
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I really appreciate this discussion, and creating a separate space for it was a good idea. It's always good to remember that folks often have dramatically different levels of experience with neurodivergence, and knowledge of neurodivergence, whether or not they are themselves neurodivergent... or know they're neurodivergent. Thank you all for sharing your perspectives.
My sincere hope is that anchors remain a core aspect of the class, rather than optional feats. So, it's important to find a way to do that without making people feel like their character has to pick a "neurodivergent option," which is not what we intend. It's too early in the playtest/feedback process to know exactly what we'll do, though.
To the degree that the anchors are neurodivergence-coded, it's a bit funny to me that it was, at first, purely unintentional. The spinning Inception top was indeed the first thing that came to mind when the concept of "anchors grounding the witchwarper in reality" first arose. Then, stuff like Roland Deschain's obsession with reaching the Dark Tower, or John Wick's memories of his brief, happy, not-filled-with-assassins time in "the real world." The anchors only really started to feel like they were neurodivergence-coded after the fact. I probably shouldn't have been so surprised that they turned out the way that they did.
Anyway, back to dev! Thanks again for the discussion.
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To the degree that the anchors are neurodivergence-coded, it's a bit funny to me that it was, at first, purely unintentional.
I am of the opinion that many of the observable neurodivergent behaviors are common human behavior coping mechanisms that are used to a higher and more noticeable level because those who are neurodivergent are often under high levels of stress on a regular basis.
So creating a character class that deals with the stress of interacting with multiple different realities simultaneously by using common human coping mechanisms... may well come across as neurodivergent.
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I don't know if I'm neurodivergent, though I do play with many neurodivergent players. I know overall they they've responded well to neurodivergent coded ancestries (skittermanders and gnomes are popular with my adhd players), and I'll be honest, I didn't actually read the witchwarper as inherently neurodivergent until after reading the sidebar.
I actually really like the current coding because it does kinda "force" people into thinking about their character's mental health. The anchors in that class all describe various grounding techniques, and quite frankly, grounding is something even neurotypical people practice. Therapy and mental health awareness aren't just for people with autism or adhd.
For some non neurodivergent flavors on each anchor:
Core Memories: anything your character feels strongly or nostalgically for, like memories of home. It can also be an oath you swore; if your character is part of a military, it might be what you recited when you took the uniform, if you are part of an organization like the space Firebrands, it would be the moment you declared yourself publicly, etc.
Focal Point: if we peel away the hypeefocus/special interest flavor in the front, every listed example in the book are applicable to every person; you dont need to be ND to have a hobby you love! Another somewhat tropey example is advising a character suffering stage fright to imagine the audience in their underwear or in an otherwise silly state to defuse the tension.
Tangible Object: you know all those war movies where someone touches a locket of photo of a loved one? Yup, you bet that counts. Also people clutching holy symbols, making warding gestures, etc
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So if anything it might be better to just drop the sidebar, since that seems to be adding fuel to the fire.
I vote to light it up.
Change for the better won't happen without change. And change is hard to make happen when everyone wants to just sweep everything under the rug, maintain the stats quo, and order everyone back to their closet.
More examples might be helpful though, I don't think there's anything wrong with that.
Some other coping mechanisms that I use personally:
* Overly specific, detailed, verbose language is a coping mechanism for lacking non-verbal communication channels.
* Repetitive movement or vocalization is a meditative grounding mechanism for overstimulation.
* Echolalia (repeating phrases or sentences from common culture such as movie quotes, song lyrics, or inside jokes among friends) is a shortcut for conveying meaning quickly when a conversation is going faster than I can keep up with.
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My sincere hope is that anchors remain a core aspect of the class, rather than optional feats. So, it's important to find a way to do that without making people feel like their character has to pick a "neurodivergent option," which is not what we intend. It's too early in the playtest/feedback process to know exactly what we'll do, though.
It is very good to know that this is an ongoing discussion and that things are open to evolve in the future. I would have even more confidence in Paizo's respect for neurodivergent players if crassly ableist posts were not left up in similar threads, the other one of which received a staff response but no acknowledgment of that particular direspectful comment, let alone any action taken against it.
I think if the intent is to avoid feeling like a player is forced to pick and roleplay a neurodivergent character, I think an easy step forward could be to shift the flavor text slightly away from its currently heavy focus on stereotypically neurodivergent behavior and more onto things related to the Witchwarper's shtick of parallel worlds and the like. For instance, let's take a look for the flavor text for anchors in general:
Your anchor keeps you centered, reminds you of what’s real, or otherwise helps counter the disorienting effects of causing paradoxes. When you interact with or think about your anchor, you might display a physical tic, speak a meaningful phrase, or mentally reorder your scattered thoughts.
From the jump, the heavy textual focus on repetitive behaviors such as tics or special phrases means the player has to make a special effort to interpret these anchors as something other than traits typically attributed to neurodivergent people, which a few players above have demonstrated. By contrast, if the flavor text looked a bit more like this, with the difference in bold:
Your anchor keeps you centered, reminds you of what’s real, or otherwise helps counter the disorienting effects of causing paradoxes. When you call upon your anchor, you might assist the stabilizing process with a gesture, phrase, or mental exercise, whose true significance is known only to you.
The behaviors would still be meaningful and perhaps a little bit mystical, but also more open-ended, less implicitly repetitive, and less explicitly coded as a sign of neurodivergence. You could have a tic or a comfort phrase, but your "special gesture" could also be you spinning that Inception top in a particular way, repeating a mantra you adopted at a significant moment, or perhaps doing something different each time. It's less about your paradox altering your thought processes and giving you verbal and/or physical tics, and more about you just doing what you gotta do as a Witchwarper to reconcile conflicting realities, regardless of how your brain works.
Let's continue and look at Focal Point, which I think is probably the most problematic bit:
You’re intensely focused on a specific subject or idea, to the point that other things fade into the background—even paradoxes and alternate realities. Your focal point might be a field of study, an abstract concept, a hobby, or even your favorite media.
So this one's a doozy in my opinion, because it very overtly registers as the "autistic special interest" anchor, to the point where I wouldn't have guessed it coming from anywhere else were it not for the Roland Deschain mention. Perhaps I'm biased here, but I feel this can similarly be made a bit more open-ended. For instance:
A powerful motivation lets you stay focused even among the confusion of paradoxes and alternate realities. Your focal point may be an important goal, a subject of great interest, or something altogether more abstract.
So again, your anchor gives you single-minded motivation, but it's open-ended enough that you could very well just be Roland Deschain wanting to get to the Dark Tower, or any other character with an all-consuming personal quest. You could also be a neurodivergent character whose anchor is their special interest, and I'd certainly flavor my character that way, but again, that would become one option you'd have to look into and pick, rather than essentially the entire way the anchor is framed (literally none of the original options reflect Deschain's quest all that well).
Now, finally, let's look at the Tangible Object anchor:
A small object, usually something you wear or can hold with one appendage, gives you comfort. It might be a trinket or article of clothing with sentimental value, a gadget to fidget with, or perhaps it just has a texture you find pleasing. The object is a physical thing, and not a digital or illusory product. Touching or thinking about the item helps you quiet the paradoxical ideas in your mind and focus on what’s around you and what is tangible.
Now this again would very much surprise me if it wasn't explicitly coded towards neurodivergence, because the flavor text goes at length to describe how it could be a fidget toy that could very well calm the mind through an especially pleasing texture. Again, there's this recurring mention of the Witchwarper's mind being disrupted, overstimulated, or otherwise made to function atypically, with these anchors acting as coping mechanisms, and if the intention isn't to push every Witchwarper player into roleplaying a measure of neurodivergence (and a very specific, not terribly well-rounded portrayal of neurodivergence at that), then it would be better to avoid this and focus more on how the paradoxes themselves are unsettling or bend reality around the Witchwarper, irrespective of how their own mind works. For example:
A small object, usually something you wear or can hold with one appendage, gives you something tangible to focus on. The object is a physical thing, and not a digital or illusory product. The object may have sentimental value, an interactivity you enjoy, or a special characteristic that reliably allows you to determine paradoxical forces at work.
With this, if you wanted a fidget toy, it would fit perfectly within the flavor text, but then if you wanted that spinning top from Inception, it would also fit perfectly within the flavor text. You don't have to be overstimulated by mental processes that diverge from those of a typical mind (I think there's a word for that), but you can be if you want to.
So without even changing the mechanics or the presence of these anchors as a core feature to the Witchwarper, you could already make their flavor text much more open-ended so that it's equally easy to opt into making a neurodivergent character, without that particular option being foisted onto every player via a dominant body of text that goes at length about having distressing mental processes that have to be quieted down with a fidget spinner or a hyperfocused special interest.
Going through this in detail I think reveals a more troubling problem as well: it's not just that the current flavor text is so heavily coded towards neurodivergence; most of the stuff that's coded as neurodivergent on the Witchwarper seems to focus primarily on aspects of neurodivergence that are negative, specifically mental distress that has to be countered with a coping mechanism. I tried looking for examples of neurodivergent-coded flavor text on the class that reflected more positive traits, like manifesting one's rich personal universe as its own tangible reality or bending the laws of physics to reflect a brand new perspective, but couldn't find any. If giving neurodivergent players effective representation is truly the goal, it might help to balance that out a bit better.
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Even the "crassly ableist post" linked to above isn't saying more than SuperBidi and I myself have said in this thread - even with the current wording, there are plenty of ways of creating a Witchwarper character and their Anchor that doesn't involve neurodiversity.
I don't see that as a bad thing. And I certainly don't understand why saying that is somehow considered ableist.
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I think a lot of this is suffering from main character syndrome. It’s not only not all about you, it’s barely about you at all. All the anchoring language reads much more “nothing much to see here” to others.
It is unsurprising that the person who went out of their way to refer to neurodivergent people as "obsessive", maladjusted, and "weird" would turn to this thread and attempt to invalidate constructive, good-faith criticism of a topic a Paizo developer themselves acknowledged was worth discussing and critiquing -- which the playtest itself explicitly mentions, in fact. As anyone who's seen your recent activity can attest (and, specifically, the poor moderator who's had to go around cleaning up your messes), you have spent the major part of your last few days making either passive-aggressive comments at me or direct character attacks. Nobody made this about me until you showed up, at which point it wasn't a case of "main character syndrome", so much as one of obsessive harrassment that has just recently taken a turn for the bigoted. The only thing you've so far managed to prove is that you have nothing worthwhile to say.
Even the "crassly ableist post" linked to above isn't saying more than SuperBidi and I myself have said in this thread - even with the current wording, there are plenty of ways of creating a Witchwarper character and their Anchor that doesn't involve neurodiversity.
I don't see that as a bad thing. And I certainly don't understand why saying that is somehow considered ableist.
Have you even read the post? Let's go over it together:
I don’t think anchors are particularly coded this way and can all be mild non-obsessive stuff.
A witchwarper who was a not so former frat boy whose anchor is core memories of his high school girlfriend who went to a different college, a focal memory of brutaris matches and players he watched in college, or a tangible object that’s a challenge coin he got in the local ROTC are all fine.
Fraa Jad from Neil Stephensonson’s Cryptonomicon seems like a perfectly well adjusted sort of witchwarper. Sure, he’s a secret master of esoteric philosophy that lets him see and choose probabilistic world states, repairs barrels of nuclear weapons waste as a hobby, and is possibly uniquely centuries old in a strange monastic sect with a limited population that only interfaces with the outside world (outside of orphan donations] for a few days every thousand years, but he’s not, you know, weird.
Emphasis in bold added for your convenience. You seem to have entirely glossed over the multiple instances where neurodivergent people are referred to in derogatory terms, whether directly or through contrast with "well adjusted" and "not weird" figures. This is quite literally T.R.A.S.H., and that you would defend this, while also completely rejecting my perspective out of hand despite the effort I went through to support it, is concerning.
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It is easy to find non-neurodivergent explanations for the Anchors. The Tangible Object can for example be a magic or technological item with the power to anchor you to reality. And I'd love to have such explanations next to the neurodivergent ones. Or other Anchors that are not about neurodivergence. Anyway, I'd like it to be an option and not forced on me.
Let's take a look at the playtest together.
CORE MEMORIES
Precious memories keep you connected to reality. These memories might involve your family, upbringing, or home world. They might be a series of formative events in your life, such as key turning points, critical decisions, or the serendipitous events which led you to meet someone important to you. Whatever the nature and number of your memories, you can focus on them to remind yourself which of the infinite possible realities impacts you the most: your own.
I don't think there's anything inherently neurodivergent about your family, upbringing, or place of origin mattering to you. "Meeting someone important to you" feels about as universal as could be.
FOCAL POINT
You’re intensely focused on a specific subject or idea, to the point that other things fade into the background — even paradoxes and alternate realities. Your focal point might be a field of study, an abstract concept, a hobby, or even your favorite media.
It's easy to read this as a special interest, sure... but you know else cares a lot about abstract concepts and fields of study? Most scientists.
TANGIBLE OBJECT
A small object, usually something you wear or can hold with one appendage, gives you comfort. It might be a trinket or article of clothing with sentimental value, a gadget to fidget with, or perhaps it just has a texture you find pleasing. The object is a physical thing, and not a digital or illusory product. Touching or thinking about the item helps you quiet the paradoxical ideas in your mind and focus on what’s around you and what is tangible.
Your old dog tags. A wedding ring. The jersey for your favorite sports team. A bracelet your mother used to wear. There's no shortage of things that fit this description and aren't reflections of neurodivergence, though it does also make room for them...
...and that's the crux of my issue with this complaint, really! I read this section as an autistic women and see a really good split between Witchwarpers who do and don't reflect neurodivergence. That you see any amount of representation as being "forced on you" is unflattering.
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...and that's the crux of my issue with this complaint, really! I read this section as an autistic women and see a really good split between Witchwarpers who do and don't reflect neurodivergence. That you see any amount of representation as being "forced on you" is unflattering.
Yeah. To be clear:
The rules themselves don't force role-playing as a neurodivergent character any time you play a Witchwarper. The sidebar about playtesting the class mentions neurodiversity and specifically says that you can do that - or not - as you desire.
The developers have commented that is intended that the option to play as neurodiverse is optional. And it was mentioned that initially the correlation between the Anchors and neurodiversity traits and behaviors wasn't intended, that connection was noticed and explicitly mentioned later.
There are, from what I am counting, three openly neurodiverse people on this thread in support of the representation. And as far as I can tell, none that are opposed. That indicates that the representation is in pretty good taste.
I can understand that from an initial reading of the sidebar that people may question the appropriateness of the representation of neurodiversity. But if after having all of this pointed out and people are still arguing that it needs to be removed, then it is starting to fall into the realm of mock outrage and refusing to allow neurodiversity representation at all.
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There are, from what I am counting, three openly neurodiverse people on this thread in support of the representation. And as far as I can tell, none that are opposed. That indicates that the representation is in pretty good taste.
I too am autistic, as you know, and while I support representation, I am critical of the specifics of the representation as currently written for the Witchwarper (I am, by contrast, uncritical of how other classes like the Investigator or Psychic accommodate neurodivergent characters really well). Framing well-reasoned and constructive criticism as "mock outrage" and pretending that the neurodiverse people who disagree with you literally don't exist does not come across to me as an honest way to validate your opinion.
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As someone who, as far as they know, is neurotypical (though I'm starting to suspect that I didn't actually "miss" the ADHD throughline in my family), it was quite easy to tell that many of the Anchors' flavor texts were purposefully being coded in such a way, though I never really felt much discomfort from it. It was quite obvious to me that they were meant to be related to the discomfort the Paradox brought to the witchwarper, and not any current mental typicality.
And I do agree with keftiu that the current options represented are not universally coded in such a way, and don't really leave people forced to pick something that represents neurodivergence. Focal Point's opening statement, about being "intensely focused on a specific subject or idea, to the point that other things fade into the background" couldn't really be interpreted as much else, though. While neurotypical people do have periods of "flow" and similar fixations, even with some regularity, when it's within the context of Anchors being these constants that ground you into your reality, I could see it being potentially problematic.
I think I would agree with Teridax that, by making the explanations more open-ended and less explicitly coded, it would achieve both the goal of making Witchwarper's Anchors be linked more obviously to their Paradox, and still being a very obvious avenue for neurodivergence to be represented. Keeping the sidebar would be a very good idea in this case, though, imo.
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I have to agree with BigHatMarisa's conclusion. I am personally a huge fan of how the anchors can relate so cleanly to autistic experiences, but defocusing their descriptions from such ND-coded examples and descriptions would do a lot of good, the sidebar can and should exist once that's done.
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I believe it’s entirely sincere, it’s simply poorly reasoned and unable to understand other viewpoints and evidence that others can more easily process. Which all makes sense, and we should view it sympathetically as incapacity rather than a lack of integrity or intent to deceive.
I'm sorry, why are you even continuing this sad little vendetta? Haven't you done enough already with your ableist comments? How many of your petty, hateful posts did the moderation team have to remove in the past week: six, eight, ten? How many more until you realize your behavior has no place on this space?
Look around you: even as you try to bring me down, others have expressed support for the post I'd made, which by the way did not attempt to invalidate anyone else's perspective. Look at the replies from people who didn't take issue with the Witchwarper's ND coding or outright celebrated it, both of which are perspectives as valid as mine, expressing support for more open-ended flavor text and less explicit coding. Most of the people on this thread are working together to celebrate neurodiverse representation and make sure we get the best form of it on the Witchwarper: I appreciate the subject is of no interest to you, given that you consider most of us here to be "weird", maladjusted, and "obsessive" (oh the irony), but normally that ought to be your cue to go pollute some other discussion instead.
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So, I can see that anchors could be read, CERTAINLY as neurodivergent, but it doesn't HAVE to be. As a guy who has worked with neurodivergent people for seven years, I have had a glimpse of that world. And training on it, and while I am by no means an expert, I can certainly see that as A valid reading.
And if you want to play that character that way, and you do it respectfully, then I see no problem with that. But that doesn't HAVE to be the way.
For Focal Point . . . sure it could be someone on the spectrum who has an obsession with a topic. Or it could just be a guy who's happy place is woodworking. Maybe there is just a witchwarper who, whenever they are stressed, tried to calm down by thinking about how much they love their hobby. That's a legitimate psychological technique for anyone.
Anyone ever watch Star Trek DS9? Dr. Julian Bashir has a stuffed Teddy Bear in that series that is kinda like a comfort item for him. He doesn't NEED it, he actually looses it for several months after a bad breakup with his girlfriend. But he likes it, it comforts him. That could be his tangible object.
I'm making a witchwarper from another reality, and his Core Memories are from this other timeline. That's what keeps him anchored. I'm not playing him as neurodivergent.
Listen, I can't, and won't, speak for the community, but, at least in my opinion, it's okay to play it either way, either as someone from that community or not.