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Here's a thought experiment that ought to be fairly easy to playtest: Bubbles the Barathu hates Solarians. Maybe a Solarian burned their cat, or maybe their cat just decided to become a Solarian and ran off. In all cases, they want to kill a Solarian, so they do a bit of research, strap on their commercial laser pistol, pack an obscene amount of batteries, and set off to find a Solarian... and they do! In fact, they're 8th-level while Bubbles is a piddly level -1 civilian, so if they knew anything about encounter rules they'd realize this would go well beyond Extreme and into certain death territory. Regardless, they float 35 feet in the air, follow the Solarian around wherever they go, and start plinking them down relentlessly with their laser pistol... and they win! Because despite this solar knight wielding cosmic powers beyond most mortal comprehension, they have absolutely no innate means of using any their abilities against a big stupid jellyfish that can just float around and shoot at the same time.
Now, this scenario is obviously meant to be quite silly, and if that Solarian had a laser pistol of their own, Bubbles would be toast (or they could use a seeker rifle instead and float a bit higher). The point is to illustrate that the Solarian, a melee class in a ranged-centric game where characters are allowed to fly from very early on, has no inherent means of using their abilities against flying enemies, particularly if those enemies can shoot too. The playtest asks if the Solarian needs more ways of closing the gap between themselves and their opponents, and in my opinion this example proves that yes, they very much do. It's not just that they need actual gapcloser abilities, they need to be able to move much more freely if they're expected to get into melee range (or close to it) to function properly. Flight on one subclass at level 9 does not cut it. While the Solarian already has a lot of stuff going on at 1st level already, I would personally gladly trade away their solar nimbus and solar shot if it meant letting them move in range of any target they choose.
Now, you might be thinking: wouldn't a class with flight at level 1 break compatibility with Pathfinder? Yes, it would, in the same way as a Barathu would break compatibility too. That much is a concession the Starfriends have already allowed for Starfinder in order to enable its ranged meta. What's more, though, it is also something that could be relatively simple to address with a compatibility note: for instance, you could just state that any ancestry or class that gets flight at 1st level instead gets a bonus to their Speed, and that would let them function just fine in PF2e. In fact, you could just make this a trait (e.g. give every low-level flying creature the "flying" trait) and add compatibility rules to the trait itself. In all cases, a Solarian that can fly at 1st level would be able to actually function smoothly against flying or otherwise difficult-to-reach ranged enemies, and being able to fly right off the bat would feel pretty rad too.
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Just carry the pistol/rifle. There’s nothing to fix here.
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Just carry the pistol/rifle. There’s nothing to fix here.
Yeah, you're right, my class fantasy as a solar knight has always been to feel almost entirely useless against any enemy flying 35 feet above ground. My contributions as a Solarian will really shine through as I fire a pea-shooter and use exactly none of my wondrous cosmic powers while the rest of the party gets to actually make use of their abilities for the first eight levels of the game. Great idea, sounds super functional!
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I don't know, I think it's fine as-is. Sometimes your main schtick isn't the right tool for the job, and that's fine. You can get flight in a variety of ways if it's that important to you.
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I don't know, I think it's fine as-is. Sometimes your main schtick isn't the right tool for the job, and that's fine. You can get flight in a variety of ways if it's that important to you.
Have we been playing the same game? Because in PF2e, the worst instance of a class getting countered, i.e. when their "main schtick isn't the right tool for the job" is something like a Rogue fighting an ooze. Even then, they still get to actually reach the creature and Strike them with their agile+finesse weapons, even if they can't deal precision damage or use mind tricks on them. Some of their abilities turn off, but it's not the case where they're literally incapable of doing anything at all unless they picked the right ancestry, or are forced to play like a character without any class.
This is, by the way, why PF2e doesn't let you fly at level 1 or make you fight ranged flying enemies at that level: even though everyone technically has access to shortbows, the expectation is not for your melee-focused Barbarians, Champions, and so on to switch to a weapon they're terrible with and attack at a -3/-4 to their every attack roll without being able to use any of their class abilities. This is a good thing, because being made to do so would feel utterly awful, just as a Solarian being forced to use nothing but a laser pistol against flying ranged enemies (which, by the way, will be a lot more common in Starfinder) would feel awful. If you believe otherwise, I'll be happy to give you the pregen Solarian, run you through a custom 1-10 AP filled with nothing but encounters with floating Barathu snipers, and see how you feel at the end of it.
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This is literally a childish request.
“Dad, I need a chauffeur to take me to school.”
“Ride the bus like everyone else.”
“But I don’t waaaaaana!!!”
A contrived scenario (an enemy burning an action to float free of cover against opponents too stupid or lazy to carry a gun) doesn’t change this. Let Oras claim those who cannot adapt to the circumstances and demand the world
change to suit them
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No, actually it's perfectly fine to have people face the gaps in their build and switch to non-focused weapons? I think we must have been playing different games if you've literally never had someone resort to a -3/-4 attack because that's how the encounter developed.
This is literally a childish request.
Ah yes, how childish to ask a class to have a bare minimum of functionality baked into their kit, like literally every other class in the game. I forgot that having a seat at the table just like everyone else was, in fact, a privilege and not a basic expectation. Forgive my impertinence, you're indeed correct that the one melee-centric class in this ranged-centric game full of flying creatures at early levels ought to suffer, as they well deserve. Screw those Solarian players for wanting to play their class!
No, actually it's perfectly fine to have people face the gaps in their build and switch to non-focused weapons? I think we must have been playing different games if you've literally never had someone resort to a -3/-4 attack because that's how the encounter developed.
I've had characters switch to worse weapons because a creature was resistant to their main weapon's damage type or because they were too far away at the time ("at the time" being the operative term here), but never once have I sat my level 1 party down to an encounter full of ranged, flying enemies and forced the Barbarian to switch to a bow the whole time because a) those enemies don't exist natively at that level range in Pathfinder, and for good reason, and b) I'm not a hack who hates my players and wants to make them suffer. Again, the developers have explicitly stated that Starfinder and Pathfinder operate on different metas where enemies in Starfinder are able to fly at low levels and shoot guns far more frequently, so there is no sense in pretending otherwise or thinking it is reasonable to expect a melee-focused class with an effective range of 30 feet across virtually their entire ability set to suffer when those ranged, flying enemies are going to be extremely common.
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Again, the developers have explicitly stated that Starfinder and Pathfinder operate on different metas where enemies in Starfinder are able to fly at low levels and shoot guns far more frequently, so there is no sense in pretending otherwise or thinking it is reasonable to expect a melee-focused class with an effective range of 30 feet across virtually their entire ability set to suffer when those ranged, flying enemies are going to be extremely common.
In PF2, you might have a party with no ranged martials, so flying enemies are discouraged at low levels. You might have no one to solve the flying threat problem.
In SF2, everyone is expected and encouraged to have a gun, even the casters and melee, so flying enemies are fine. You are *extremely* unlikely to have no one to solve the flying threat problem.
It's fine if, for a few levels before jetpacks, a Solarian can't always default to using their main schtick.
I really think you're exaggerating the problem unnecessarily. Also, allowing situations to arise that naturally favor one character over others is a natural part of play, not some mustache twirling evil GM machination.
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Why are these ranged enemies wasting actions on flight. That’s just one part of this delusional fantasy in the service of childish desires that never makes sense.
I also don’t know what caused you to use “need” when you explained right away why it’s not a need - just use a gun. Disingenuous? Unfamiliar with the definitions of basic words?
Ultimately this thread is an obvious waste of time, the developers aren’t going to do it. The only question is whether you really believe they might, and if so why and whether any of us can help you.
In PF2, you might have a party with no ranged martials, so flying enemies are discouraged at low levels. You might have no one to solve the flying threat problem.
But can't these martials all just use shortbows? Surely that must be enough. After all, you can't expect them to always default to using their main schtick. /s
But seriously, I'm glad you agree that the developers have consciously avoided designing encounters that disable a character from accessing their class's mechanics at all. Would you realize the cognitive dissonance in your argument and apply the same reasoning you're producing here to the Solarian, I'd be even happier.
In SF2, everyone is expected and encouraged to have a gun, even the casters and melee, so flying enemies are fine. You are *extremely* unlikely to have no one to solve the flying threat problem.
This argument makes no sense in the context you're using for a number of reasons: for starters, the ability for most of the party to address flying threats does not invalidate the case of the one party member having no tools in their class's kit that facilitates the same. That character's player is still going to feel terrible about not actually playing their class. Second, even in PF2e, you are practically guaranteed to have party members that will be able to handily fight flying enemies at level 1, because your party will almost certainly have at least one caster, and casters have damaging cantrips that are usually ranged (and you will likely have at least one ranged damaging cantrip as a Pathfinder caster). That is, as you know, no excuse to throw flying enemies against the party at low levels.
It's fine if, for a few levels before jetpacks, a Solarian can't always default to using their main schtick.
Levels 1 through 8 is the near-totality of most APs in 2e. This is assuming you picked a graviton-attuned Solarian as well, because otherwise if you picked the Balanced or Radiant arrangement, you will have literally only one feat across your entire class features and feats that would ever allow you to reach a target beyond 30 feet, and that's Wormhole at 12th level, a once-per hour ability. Second, flying enemies in SF2e are extremely common, and you get plenty of them in the playtest adventures that released. I don't think you quite grasp just how often in SF2e the Solarian would be unable to "default to using their main schtick", i.e. play literally any part of their class.
I really think you're exaggerating the problem unnecessarily. Also, allowing situations to arise that naturally favor one character over others is a natural part of play, not some mustache twirling evil GM machination.
Engineering a situation that completely screws over one of my players, to the point where they will be literally unable to put even a single of their class's distinctive mechanics to use, is a nightmare scenario for me as a GM that I'd never want to inflict upon anyone by accident, let alone on purpose. Anyone who believes it's okay to do this is not someone I'd ever want as my GM. Again, I am not exaggerating the issue when a) as you should be able to see by actually reading the Solarian's features and feats, the class is extremely short-ranged, and b) as you yourself are aware of, flying creatures not only exist at low levels, but are common. Expecting every Solarian to pick a Barathu if they don't want to default to firing a gun at a -3 modifier in a large portion of fights is what strikes me as unreasonable and altogether dismissive of valid concerns for a class's quality of play.
Why are these ranged enemies wasting actions on flight.
I don't know, chief, if I saw someone charging at me with a sword and I could fly, I'd certainly want to get out of the danger zone and shoot them from a safe distance. I'm sure you'd know this if you were to play a bit of 2e, but generally it's not a good idea to spend all your turns Striking either, so you'll want to spend your third action doing something else... like moving out of range of an approaching melee enemy.
That’s just one part of this delusional fantasy in the service of childish desires that never makes sense.
It appears the less well you do in an argument, the more insults you string together. Childish indeed.
I also don’t know what caused you to use “need” when you explained right away why it’s not a need - just use a gun. Disingenuous? Unfamiliar with the definitions of basic words?
Well, to any reasonable and intellectually honest individual, the obvious point being made is that the backup strategy of firing a gun is not a valid counterpoint despite its existence -- in the end, you're still not actually playing a Solarian, you're just playing a character without a class, shooting with a terrible attack modifier. This is even more unjustifiable given that flying enemies are common even at low level, and can and will be shooting guns, so this is not a rare case. Contrary to your vocal protestations, it is not reasonable to expect every flying enemy to politely sit down at ground level and take a solar weapon to the face.
Ultimately this thread is an obvious waste of time, the developers aren’t going to do it. The only question is whether you really believe they might, and if so why and whether any of us can help you.
I would say the primary waste of time here is the copious amounts of vapid, supercilious noise you pump out across these forums at regular pace. You appear to be blithely unaware of the fact that this is a feedback forum for a first-draft playtest, where Paizo will absolutely be taking feedback and integrating it into their future work. Furthermore, you appear to be especially unaware of the fact that Paizo have specifically solicited feedback regarding the Solarian's ability to get in melee range, specifically on page 109. To wit:
Oh, how about close combat? The solarian’s a bit different than the other classes in this book, because it really focuses on getting up-close and personal with their enemies. The solarian is all about being in melee, or close enough that it might as well be in melee. Does that work in Starfinder, and do the solarian’s abilities let it close the gap? Oh, and not THE Gap, just to be clear. No one’s crossing that thing… well… not that I know of!
So this thread is in fact directly pertinent to Paizo's expressly-voiced requests for feedback. Perhaps you would have more of a chance of saying anything even remotely of value if you actually sat down to read the playtest and engage with it, let alone run a few encounters and see what I'm talking about.
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Tone aside, I agree that Solarion is too light on gap closers (could we get a longer ranged, more targeted pull effect early on?) and ranged options. The class is too MAD right now.
Why are these ranged enemies wasting actions on flight.I don't know, chief, if I saw someone charging at me with a sword and I could fly, I'd certainly want to get out of the danger zone and shoot them from a safe distance. I'm sure you'd know this if you were to play a bit of 2e, but generally it's not a good idea to spend all your turns Striking either, so you'll want to spend your third action doing something else... like moving out of range of an approaching melee enemy.
We've all established that there is an expectation that are no exclusively melee enemies in Starfinder. Everyone has a ranged option. Your inability or unwillingness to accept this is the only issue here. If your Solarian is dying or helpless in this situation, that's a choice you made to ignore the reality of the world you are in.
If this needs to come from class abilities, then I guess we can have Solar Flare back as the SF1 version with something like a 60' range increment and worse damage with a couple of supporting feats.
And of course I'm aware of this is a feedback forum. I'm trying to persuade you to greatly improve the quality of your feedback to not waste everyone's time. I know it's not likely to work, but I'm a generous soul given to acts of charity.
Every solarian has a free ranged attack at level one.
It's not really, because it has a hard range cap instead of an increment. It's more of a long reach option with penalties.
Edit: I'll leave this up and note that I miss the old Solar Flare with range increment. I understand why they want to limit it if it's a "free" add on to full melee functionality that they want to focus on, but it already suffers from no item bonuses and secondary attribute to hit, and the feat support seemed disappointing on first review.
Allowing the current max ranges (15/30) to be increments would hardly make the Solarian a ranged threat against guys 90' away with laser rifles.
Dang that was fast, that post was up only about 15 seconds before I remembered how Solar Flare worked and deleted it lol
We've all established that there is an expectation that are no exclusively melee enemies in Starfinder. Everyone has a ranged option. Your inability or unwillingness to accept this is the only issue here. If your Solarian is dying or helpless in this situation, that's a choice you made to ignore the reality of the world you are in.
This has mad “don’t you guys have phones?” energy. Yes, as a Solarian I will have a gun, which I will sometimes use instead of the ranged ability given to me for that exact situation, because sometimes an enemy’s too far away at the moment and I just want to shoot them at least once. However, as a Solarian shooting a gun, I am using literally no part of my class. As the blurb from Paizo that I brought up for your reading convenience clearly indicates, the whole point of the Solarian is to fight in melee. That is their entire selling point. If I have to frequently ignore my class’s key selling point as a result of incompatibility with Starfinder’s default gameplay, that to me is a design problem that needs to be addressed. I get that you’ve put a big emotional sunk cost into this argument, but surely even you must realise your argument is founded more upon a silly personal grudge than any sound reasoning.
And of course I'm aware of this is a feedback forum. I'm trying to persuade you to greatly improve the quality of your feedback to not waste everyone's time. I know it's not likely to work, but I'm a generous soul given to acts of charity.
The only time being wasted here is your own through this little meltdown you chose to have on the internet. You are in no position to tell anyone to improve their feedback when the bulk of your contributions to this space has been picking arguments with people you disagree with and clogging subforums with drawn-out, stream-of-consciousness opinion lists that not a single soul cares about. You would do us all a favor to step back, take a breath, and ask yourself if it all this noise you’re generating for ego’s sake is really worth making other people’s feedback harder to parse… unless of course that’s the intention?
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A contrived scenario (an enemy burning an action to float free of cover against opponents too stupid or lazy to carry a gun) doesn’t change this.
I'm amused by the fact that the developers wrote that exact contrived scenario into a playtest encounter.
The final boss fight in A Cosmic Birthday has instruction for the final boss that reads: "Amnieka flies far overhead and casts eldritch wrath first, then switches between ranged Strikes and casting its most powerful spells. Amnieka uses telekinetic manuever to Diarm the PC dealing the most weapon damage to it. If a PC gets it into melee, Amnieka uses Reactive Tentacles, then casts paranoic or telekinetic maneuver (Disarm)."
So, a flying enemy (its only speed is 30 foot fly, no land speed) trying to minimize damage to itself with range 120 foot attacks and spells, and for which the encounter is a DPS race to defeat it in 6 rounds is the contrived scenario that the developers themselves wrote up.
This encounter would be encountered either at level 3 or possibly level 4 depending on how much of the adventure path was completed, and assuming the GM lets the players level up in between two combats, so no jet packs.
I'm am looking forward to running that fight with some players and would love to have one running a Solarian and see how they feel about contributing to the final boss fight.
While I don't have an opinion yet on whether Solarians need built in flight that early, and if I were playing and not GMing, I'd be the player who realizing they have no flight, would have a +3 dexterity modifier and a rifle, and be using light armor with an eye to Ultralight wings as soon as possible, but I admit that does seem to limit the build space a bit a low levels.
Although, does relying on a rifle ranged attack make low dexterity Solarians aiming for Solar Rampart a trap option at early levels?
Personally, if a change is necessary, I would suggest to the developers to simply lower the level of commercial Jetpacks to level 1 or 2 and make it cost 50 credits, and remove Jump Jets. This solves the problem for all melee classes, including any ported over from Pathfinder or future ones like the Vanguard. It eats up your armor upgrade slot (which will only be one in the 1-5 level range), and eats an action at the beginning of combat, which are sufficient down sides compared to those with the ability to fly innately I would think. Also, 20 foot fly speed isn't that fast.
Still, I do believe that the Solarian abilities which provide a Stride action or modify land speed, should have the same clause that Fighter Sudden Charge has, which lets you use any movement speed with the ability, as opposed to just land speeds.
Given Ultralight wings are available at 3rd level for ~1/3 the cost, I'm not really sure why Jetpacks are 5th.
Also, I don't know, man - if I have a Solarian in a game I'm GMing, I would always build encounters where they can contribute. Maybe a few non-flying goons, or they can hit something to cause a big electronet or something to fall that knocks people out of the sky, or literally anything else I can think of.
And, yeah, sometimes they might have to engage with something else - such as getting the McGuffin of the encounter, or doing something cool to disrupt the enemy's environment - while the party deals with the flying monsters.
I don't really think it's a problem, and if you are just constantly being faced with all flying enemies every single time and nothing you can do, that just seems to me the GM not taking into account someone chose to play the melee class and built/adjusted their encounters accordingly.
But maybe that's just my style.
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So one the one hand I do believe Solarians need a way to have flight eventually, not necessarily at 1st level but eventually. Perhaps at levels similar to where other Ancestries can pick it up or when Flightpacks and such become available.
I don't like the Flight or Speed bonuses being tied to a specific subclass and attunement. Would rather they were both folded into the base class, possibly requiring a feat but preferably just baked in. Just require being attuned at all to have them active. Maybe Photon would make the Flight faster and Graviton would provide some other benefit like Floating and not needing to use actions to stay afloat.
Kind of feel like a Solarian should become Cosmic and have the Cosmic Flight stuff that Prismeni can eventually grab, including the double flight speed in the Drift.
Speaking of issues with the Solarian I feel like Solar Shot should have a larger range, and preferably range increments as well, and a way to benefit from the solarian crystals you swallow for your Solar Weapon. Of course I would also like it if the Solar Weapon scaled naturally to some degree like the Solar Shot. Also not happy with the physical damage types of it. I feel like it should be more solar manifestation "lightsaber" maybe dealing Plasma fire/lightning damage in Photon mode and maybe Cold or something in Graviton.
Also with a name like Solar Nimbus I feel like it should have some kind of aura thing. Photon maybe doing Fire or Plasma damage in a scaling emanation from you. Graviton perhaps having a pull against enemies in your, probably double sized, aura so all those ranged enemies just start getting pulled in closer to you, and perhaps making it Difficult Terrain to try and move away from you, the closer they are to you the more movement it costs to try and move away from you?
Speaking of damage near you how does Constellation Vortex actually work? Is it a 1 to 3 action activity to create that many weapons around you, or 1 action and at any point while you have it up you can spend another to add another weapon? If you have 3 weapons up is that 1d8+2 or 1d8+33? Does it add your Str? Does it add extra dice as you gain Solarian Striker Weapon Crystals? What about Orbital Solarian Crystals that add damage to the Solar Weapon?
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Also, I don't know, man - if I have a Solarian in a game I'm GMing, I would always build encounters where they can contribute. Maybe a few non-flying goons, or they can hit something to cause a big electronet or something to fall that knocks people out of the sky, or literally anything else I can think of.
That’s great! Also: not a restriction that every GM should be burdened with, particularly in a game that will have plenty of ranged enemies who, when not flying, will often end up attacking from vantage points (unless you’re planning on making all of your combats take place in featureless rooms with 10-foot ceilings). The point to 2e is that it works right out the box: Pathfinder makes classes work around melee-centric combat, and Starfinder makes classes work around ranged-centric combat where everyone in the party is expected to be able to deal with ranged threats, including flying ones. If a Starfinder class is going to be playing in Starfinder, it would be better for that Starfinder class to be able to actually handle Starfinder encounters right out the box, which for a melee-focused class I’d say entails the necessary mobility and gapclosers, rather than severely contriving every encounter. Perhaps I’ll have less opportunity to pat myself on the back and tell myself what a good GM I am when the game does the job of making its gameplay functional by default, but I’d still prefer it to be made that way.
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In theory this is what Solar Shot is for, but the range is pretty bad. Probably should be 30/60 instead of 15/30 and a range increment instead of a hard range limit.
You don’t need to contrive Barathu Snipers for this. There are flying, ranged enemies possible to fight at level 1 already such as the Observer-Class Security Robot and the Electrovore.
Can you reply to people without being condescending or snarky? It's exhausting.
An interesting suggestion from someone who not only does the same, as per the above "It's just a you problem" post, but also goes out of their way to switch to their alt for the exclusive purpose of upvoting posts they agree with, often on the same threads they're arguing with on main (not very slick, "Aeodus Baradin the Dawnlord"). The point at hand is that if the GM runs the game as written and the game doesn't work, that is not the GM's fault, nor is it up to the GM to fix the game's design problems. That's not how 2e works, and it's not how Starfinder should be expected to work, particularly as Paizo's own APs feature encounters that illustrate the problem being discussed here. Putting other GMs down for wanting to run a game as written without issue, and so all for the purpose of aggrandizing oneself on the internet, does not strike me as terribly productive or cooperative behavior.
In theory this is what Solar Shot is for, but the range is pretty bad. Probably should be 30/60 instead of 15/30 and a range increment instead of a hard range limit.
You don’t need to contrive Barathu Snipers for this. There are flying, ranged enemies possible to fight at level 1 already such as the Observer-Class Security Robot and the Electrovore.
Indeed. Part of what frustrates me in this discussion is that a lot of the dismissal seems to stem from wilful ignorance: flying, ranged enemies at level 1 aren't some contrived hypothetical, they already exist. One can run Paizo's SF2e adventures right now and have low-level encounters with flying, ranged enemies who go out of their way to stay in the air and attack from a distance. We shouldn't be expecting a class to wait until some later level and buy a specific piece of equipment just to be at all useful in these scenarios, which from the looks of it are going to be fairly common in this game. Asking the one melee-centric class in the game to default to a gun and max out their Dex just to compensate for this does not strike me as the best way to make that class shine either.
What I think would also help establish this point is if everyone took the time to read the Solarian's class features and feats: by and large, the Solarian's capabilities are limited to an effective maximum range of 30 feet at all times. The only two exceptions to this are Wormhole, a 12th-level feat, and the Degradant arrangement's Singularity at 15th level, both of which are once-per-hour abilities. This is more limited even than Pathfinder's most melee-focused classes, given how the Barbarian can take Raging Thrower and use throwing weapons at longer ranges, the Champion can take Dex as a key attribute and pick Nimble Reprisal to use ranged weapons, and a Monk can take Monastic Archer Stance and fight with longbows. From a design perspective, this consistency is great... except the Solarian's playing in a world where everyone has guns and many can fly, or just attack from a vantage point. They need to counterbalance that consistently low range with an ability to close gaps properly, IMO, and I'd prefer that to having the Solarian fall back to ranged combat, which currently also has the problem of forcing the class into a rote Strength/Dex/Con/Wis setup of attributes.
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In theory this is what Solar Shot is for, but the range is pretty bad. Probably should be 30/60 instead of 15/30 and a range increment instead of a hard range limit.
You don’t need to contrive Barathu Snipers for this. There are flying, ranged enemies possible to fight at level 1 already such as the Observer-Class Security Robot and the Electrovore.
A solar shot range increase would be great. There's also a little bit of help in the solar shot's current mechanics. If you are graviton attuned, and crit, you can try to trip the enemy. That would cause them to fall and turn flight into a non-issue.
Granted, it would be nice if there weren't so many hoops to jump through there. You need to hit, also crit, then succeed at your Trip attempt.
While I suspect that the comparison to the kineticist is something the Starfinder devs are trying to avoid, making your solar shot have an easier time tripping if you, say, spend two actions to fire it, like beefing a kineticist's elemental blast, would be another way to solve that problem.
I would like for Solarian’s abilities to become more modal, as of currently the Photon/Graviton attunement doesn’t change all that much.
Graviton Solar Shot could just be a Ranged Trip (no damage) of some descript to help out Solarions who want to apply some CC from range or knock a flier out of the air, whereas Photon is the one that actually does damage. As opposed to the current version which is pretty much just crit benefits and nothing else.
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Can you reply to people without being condescending or snarky? It's exhausting.An interesting suggestion from someone who not only does the same, as per the above "It's just a you problem" post, but also goes out of their way to switch to their alt for the exclusive purpose of upvoting posts they agree with, often on the same threads they're arguing with on main (not very slick, "Aeodus Baradin the Dawnlord"). The point at hand is that if the GM runs the game as written and the game doesn't work, that is not the GM's fault, nor is it up to the GM to fix the game's design problems. That's not how 2e works, and it's not how Starfinder should be expected to work, particularly as Paizo's own APs feature encounters that illustrate the problem being discussed here. Putting other GMs down for wanting to run a game as written without issue, and so all for the purpose of aggrandizing oneself on the internet, does not strike me as terribly productive or cooperative behavior.
Not really sure what your point is, nor trying to be slick - I've exclusively posted using this alias since like, over 8 years ago (and I only made 11 posts using my default name) because this is my handle everywhere on the internet and couldn't change my default name, so I just use this. (And I had one for Starfinder 1E, but like, just to fit the theme, but I haven't used that one in 7 years, so.)
I'm not hiding or anything like that, so not really a gotcha? I'm not even 'known' enough around here for it to matter, just a way around a finicky forum system.
Anyway, again, don't think they need flight, maybe a few changes to Solar Shot but otherwise they're fine without it, imo.
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Yeah, if the problem is Solar Shot doesn't do it's job, that's a better angle to take.
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Given Ultralight wings are available at 3rd level for ~1/3 the cost, I'm not really sure why Jetpacks are 5th.I think it's a flexibility and opportunity cost thing. If you don't need a jetpack in the moment you can swap it out and slap some new upgrade on in its place with a couple minutes' work. The ultralight wings, in contrast, are an augmentation, which takes a lot longer to install and remove, and has a limitation of requiring light armor, as well. Buying into the wings is more of an investment.
If we take a step back though, Ultralight wings are encouraging the already stronger mechanically choices.
There are roughly 4 possibilities in terms of flight/no flight and ranged, no ranged:
Flight and good ranged (i.e. high dex encourged)
Grounded and good ranged (i.e. high dex encouraged)
Flight and melee/heavy armor (lower dex encouraged)
Gounded and melee/heavy armor (lower dex encouraged)
I will point out that Pathfinder 2e does includes flight at very low level - it is just on melee only enemies. Take a look at the Eagle from Monster Core. Flight 60' enemy and it is a Creature-1. You can encounter multiples of it as a level 1 party in Pathfinder 2e, but no one bats an eye because it is a melee enemy. It has to come close in order to do anything.
As a party in Pathfinder, you can have a group with multiple flying animal companions at level 1 as well (Bats, Birds, etc).
So having flight and being melee only looks to be fine from level 1 on in the Pathfinder 2e system. Similarly, ranged attackers (either weapons or spells) with flight are considered much more dangerous, and don't show up at such low levels.
So Ultralight wings is another benefit of going high dexterity, since not only do you get full AC in light armor, as well as providing good ranged striking, you get earlier access to flight by 2 levels and for less credits.
From a design perspective, I ask myself why do dexterity based classes (i.e. Operatives) need earlier flight access than strength based classes (i.e. Solarians)? I would tend to think you wouldn't want to give dexterity, arguably the most overloaded stat in the game in combat, yet another combat benefit.
Instead, I would think you would want either equal access to flight all at the same time, or in the same way Pathfinder 2e enemies do it, earlier access for the less ranged builds, and later access for the ranged builds.
You could move ultralight wings to 5th level (since that is where most of the flight options seem to come online), and provide a level 3 armor upgrade that only works in heavy armor, and that is so hard to maneuver it limits your dexterity bonus to +0 or less while turned on. This would make ranged attack and flight builds not want that option. Casters would typically have difficulty getting heavy armor proficiency by 3rd level as well, making this more of a Soldier and Solarian option, rather than an Operative option. And then at 5th, flight opens up for everyone generally.
As for slot usage, I do admit Ultralight wings eats up an augmentation slot, but for low level characters, it is extremely easy to have more augmentation slots available than you can reasonably fill. Characters can start with anywhere from 1 augmentation slot (1 base slot +0 Con) to 7 (+4 Con, heritage or feat, background), so for a typical character (perhaps +2 Con?), you're using 1 of 3 slots augmentation wise versus your only armor upgrade slot. If you want a 2nd augmentation in addition to ultralight wings, it is easy to grab. The armor slot could be swapped with 10 minutes, but the Ultralight wings can have that single armor slot already setup, and still have space for augmentations.
I just consider the armor upgrade slot more valuable than the augmentation slot at low levels (especially since it costs less credits as well).
Anyways, that is the reason I was asking about the ultralight wings being 3rd. If the strongest option combined with flight is available, why restrict the weaker combinations to later?
Not really sure what your point is, nor trying to be slick - I've exclusively posted using this alias since like, over 8 years ago (and I only made 11 posts using my default name) because this is my handle everywhere on the internet and couldn't change my default name, so I just use this. (And I had one for Starfinder 1E, but like, just to fit the theme, but I haven't used that one in 7 years, so.)
I'm not hiding or anything like that, so not really a gotcha? I'm not even 'known' enough around here for it to matter, just a way around a finicky forum system.
That's a nice story, but why then do you switch aliases every time you want to favorite comments that agree with you? Why not just use the same alias for both? Because right now, you are going out of your way to post as one alias and favorite comments as another, which is deceptive no matter how you slice it. You're not the only one who abuses aliases in arguments on these forums, but that makes the practice no less distasteful.
Anyway, again, don't think they need flight, maybe a few changes to Solar Shot but otherwise they're fine without it, imo.
I wouldn't say no to improvements to Solar Shot, but then again I also don't think Solar Shot is the solution, so much as a crutch -- the ability should be useful if you want to damage something out of melee range that you can't get to right now, not that you can't get to ever. A melee-focused class not being able to get into melee range of a target on the same turn they want to hurt them is completely fine, and a common occurrence in Pathfinder as well. A melee-focused class not being able to get into melee range of a target at all in an encounter is not fine, which is why Pathfinder avoids throwing ranged flying enemies against the party at low level. Starfinder does throw ranged flying enemies against the party at low level, and often too, so it stands to reason that the one class being expected to fight in melee range ought to be equipped to capably get into melee range of those enemies.
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Hey folks, let's try and take the temperature back down in our replies and try to keep the discussion more on the rules, classes, and playtest, and less on others' styles of posting or play style.
Remember the human and that we're all here because we're fans and to make the best game possible.
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I think the fix here is two fold:
1) Let's not assume every fight ever takes place in a salt plain with no features and no ceiling. Often you'll be fighting in crampt starship corridors, or with buildings around. If bubbles the Barathu flies 100 feet up and starts taking pot shots with a sniper rifle, 9 times out of 10, a solarian can run into a building until bubbles cools down.
2) I think the easy buff here is to just make solar flare have a longer range. Maybe give it the brutal trait (use strength to hit) or turn it into a class DC thing.
I think the fix here is two fold:
1) Let's not assume every fight ever takes place in a salt plain with no features and no ceiling. Often you'll be fighting in crampt starship corridors, or with buildings around. If bubbles the Barathu flies 100 feet up and starts taking pot shots with a sniper rifle, 9 times out of 10, a solarian can run into a building until bubbles cools down.
2) I think the easy buff here is to just make solar flare have a longer range. Maybe give it the brutal trait (use strength to hit) or turn it into a class DC thing.
Yeah, and then allow them to receive the Striking bonus from Weapon Potency crystals and other things from Orbital Crystals and I think that would be a sufficient tool for Solarians to deal with any flying enemies.
For those still believing that flying ranged enemies in an open environment at level 1 is some kind of unlikely white-room scenario, I kindly invite them to playtest the first SFS mini-adventure. As luck would have it, that exactly describes one of the listed encounters, and let me tell you from experience, the Solarian did not have a good time. Funnily enough, the scenario goes out of its way to request the GM have the enemies fly at only 30 feet from the ground: when I re-ran this scenario and had those enemies hang only slightly higher at 45 feet, still within the first range increment of their attacks, the Solarian went from not having a good time to not being able to play their class at all, as they were forced to switch to their backup gun and make crappy attacks while everyone else got to play normally.
This is also why I don't believe buffing Solar Shot will fix the Solarian: Solar Shot is not the main attraction, it's a backup tool at best. A Solarian relegated to using nothing but their Solar Shot is still going to be operating at a fraction of the effectiveness of other classes, and more importantly, their player is unlikely to be satisfied. I can't see many players signing up to play a solar knight and then being perfectly happy having to use ranged attacks most of the time at early levels. Having a functional ranged attack is well and good, but I do think that any melee class designed expressly for Starfinder is going to need to be equipped to handle the kinds of encounters Starfinder throws at us (and again, these are encounters people can try out now and experience for themselves). This is one of the few instances where I think it is valid to say that Starfinder does not need to be held by the exact same standards as Pathfinder, and so I don't think it is unreasonable to give the Solarian flight at level 1.
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Okay but what's so wrong with Giving solarians low level feat access to fight, or just have it be a class feature?
What's wrong with having the melee class of SF to have better mobility baseline than Operators and Soldiers?
Because melee operatives exist, as do melee soldiers and heck, even melee envoys? Should we give them all level 1 fly speeds? Just make sure you have a gun. Even in pathfinder, all my characters, even those with +0 dex, have a ranged option just in case. Even if they don’t have a great to hit, it’s better than nothing.
TL,DR.
IMO, if you want a solarian to be more mobile then choose an ancestry that gets a speed bonus with a 1st level ancestry feat (skittermander with Hyper = 30 ft speed) and take Stellar Rush (Stride twice with a +10 bonus to speed = 80 ft movement with a 30 ft speed) as your 1st level solarian feat.