The Witchwarper needs class DC, because many of its quantum field zone feats rely upon it. But it's unique as a caster that gets class DC progression (with expert spells at 7 and master spells at 15; it doesn't get legendary class DC at 19 when it does get spells proficiency) which puts it ahead of martials and very different from the Mystic, who never gets a class DC advance at all.
My first suggestion is that the zone abilities should save against spell proficiency and WW should lose class DC advances. It doesn't make any different at all except they'll be a bit stronger at 19-20 using zones.
My second is that if the desire is that the zones be less dangerous than spells (because they are infinitely spammable as long as you spend actions), then class DC should track what the martials get, with a boost to expert around 11/13 and master at 17/19. (The martials seem all over the place from a summary I saw from someone else.)
The only one they could have would be for the WW to be better at area weapons than all non-Soldiers. Perhaps they do want that.
The only one they could have would be for the WW to be better at area weapons than all non-Soldiers. Perhaps they do want that.
lol.
That was quite literally my thought when I read this:
WW should lose class DC advances. It doesn't make any different at all except they'll be a bit stronger at 19-20 using zones.
I wasn't sure if it was worth mentioning though.
The only one they could have would be for the WW to be better at area weapons than all non-Soldiers. Perhaps they do want that.lol.
That was quite literally my thought when I read this:
WW should lose class DC advances. It doesn't make any different at all except they'll be a bit stronger at 19-20 using zones.I wasn't sure if it was worth mentioning though.
I saw one of the devs mention in response to this issue that "Witchwarpers have always been good with grenades." So I think that's what's going on. They did have proficiency (alone among the spellcasters) and at least one paradigm shift to manipulate grenades in SF1, so they're playtesting them as being able to toss them out at good DCs, unlike the mystic (and some martials with worse class DCs at certain levels).
It seems fine honestly, given that the Scattergun is the only simple area weapon and they're unlike to get much out of either that or martial ones if they picked up proficiency. Why not just cast area spells? Grenades at least have (once we get all the old ones back) a lot of cool options and one action to toss if you go pistol and grenade into combat.
I feel like if they're going to do this technomancer should follow suit as being another caster good with area weapons. Though I'd also take something like "technomancer can use their spell DC for area weapons". It seems a weird thematic fit that witchwarpers are good with area weapons though, and I didn't look at the class much in 1e to really know what made them good with grenades there
I feel like if they're going to do this technomancer should follow suit as being another caster good with area weapons. Though I'd also take something like "technomancer can use their spell DC for area weapons". It seems a weird thematic fit that witchwarpers are good with area weapons though, and I didn't look at the class much in 1e to really know what made them good with grenades there
1) They had proficiency with them (no other spellcaster did), probably to fit the "risky, taking chances" vibe
2) They had a single paradigm shift (equivalent to class feat) available at 2nd level called Push Grenade that let them move a grenade around to avoid the party taking damage or ensure that enemies did.
I feel like if they're going to do this technomancer should follow suit as being another caster good with area weapons. Though I'd also take something like "technomancer can use their spell DC for area weapons". It seems a weird thematic fit that witchwarpers are good with area weapons though, and I didn't look at the class much in 1e to really know what made them good with grenades there1) They had proficiency with them (no other spellcaster did), probably to fit the "risky, taking chances" vibe
2) They had a single paradigm shift (equivalent to class feat) available at 2nd level called Push Grenade that let them move a grenade around to avoid the party taking damage or ensure that enemies did.
Yeah I don't understand this flavor-wise. In my head grenade=tech, so naturally my first inclination would be that technomancers would be decent with them, but idk. Maybe they'll make technomancers decent with guns...? They have stuff that makes them competent with guns in 1e. Witch warper somehow feels like it should be a cha class to me, so I might just not understand the class at all
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It was a Cha class previously, that could be why.
Okay, yeah I'm not crazy then. I thought this was the case. I really do not understand this. They have six classes, one for each stat, but to do that they forced the witch warper to be int and it doesn't feel right
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Iunno, it's grown on me. I like the idea that you pick up loads of weird lore and knowledge just by virtue of ping-ponging around causality like you do. It feels more Doctor Who and less Marty McFly.It was a Cha class previously, that could be why.Okay, yeah I'm not crazy then. I thought this was the case. I really do not understand this. They have six classes, one for each stat, but to do that they forced the witch warper to be int and it doesn't feel right
hm, if I recalibrate my expectations to see this as Dr. Who-like, I like it more
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I think if the Witchwarper is supposed to have good grenade synergy there should be something there other than "wait a minute this class has good class DC". A focus spell to manifest a live grenade in your quantum field would be funny.
I think they have good “lots of single actions to mix and match other than always casting two action spells in a round” energy, and a grenade can be part of that (once) (if you go pistol instead of rifle).
Having now actually read through Witchwarper I can confirm: I'm 100% not seeing why its class DC is so high. Quantum field isn't a reason, that could just as well use the spell DC, plenty of casters use that for non-spell activities.
There's like one class feat it can take total that gives explicit weapons/grenade support. I know Pathfinder has a lot of implied design in general, but whith something as outside the mold as a caster class using a decidedly martial option at legendary proficiency it needs more pushing to feel justified.
I don't hate the idea of a grenadier magus type class, but that feels like it fits more for Technomancer. Witchwarper having a good class DC feels like tradition for tradition's sake, which is a strange philosophy to apply to Witchwarper now, after all the big changes to it I hear everyone complain about.
I doesn’t get legendary class DC.
I doesn’t get legendary class DC.
My bad. Master proficiency isn't that much more reasonable though, casters don't tend to get higher than expert with even simple weapons. And it makes me question even more why quantum field doesn't use your eventually-better spell DC. If the idea is to explicitly make it worse than your save spells, why is it only worse from level 19 onward? I'm seeing some real Fearsome Bulwark tier design here
By level 19 your infinite use field can be really huge, have double zone effects (plus that anomaly focus spell enhancement), and be inescapable or teleport all the enemies around. Maybe they think end of campaign foes deserve a better shot to save.