I'm trying to understand the tone of this adventure, it is described as whimsical and comedic, but also has Gorum dying in the middle of it and Norgorber being an antagonist. Does it start out more innocent and then they realize they're not in Kansas anymore, and the tone shifts to more dramatic themes? Does it go back and forth?
I played through Extinction Curse with the circus stuff peppered in with world-shattering stakes if the party fails at stopping the antagonists' plot, is this a similar vibe?
The investigation parts alluded to in the Player's Guide make me think of a spy thriller, slowly uncovering a master conspiracy to kill of a core deity. I want to prepare my players for either a Jason Bourne type story or a more easygoing, low stakes story.
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The way Godsrain plays into Curtain Call is not yet revealed, and how we mesh whimsical themes (note that whimsy does not always equate to comedy) with more serious themes is something you'll need to wait and see how we do... but for a classic example you just need to look at how we handled goblins in the very first Adventure Path—they're whimsical and kinda silly but at the same point are killing puppies and threatening children.
I've also heard a lot of folks assuming that because we didn't follow through with the circus elements in Extinction Curse that we will certainly do the same here—not the case.
The opera elements are a fundamental element of Curtain Call, and play a huge part of each adventure, with opera-related content and storyline taking up at least one chapter in each adventure and in some cases more than that... and even when it moves to other stories, the opera themes remain.
The Curtain Call Player's Guide is meant to prepare your players. But as the GM, you should also at least wait until you have at least the first volume of the Adventure Path and have read through it before you really start the work of building things up.
It is NOT a low-stakes story. The PCs reach 20th level in Curtain Call, and they go on some adventures that only work (both game-balance wise and thematic-wise) for higher level PCs.
Most of your concerns and questions are, I feel, answered in the adventure itself. We don't do "GM Guides" to our Adventure Paths... we put that info into the adventures themselves, so you'll have to wait for the adventure. Once it's out, I would love to chat about themes and questions and all that... but it's not really the time yet to start that discussion in detail.
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Again... since I see lots of folks worrying about this, and because I want it to be clear...
Opera content takes place in all 3 volumes of Curtain Call.
We don't tease it and abandon it. I learned that lesson by reading feedback on Extinction Curse, never fear.
Full proof will be out soon enough with the first volume, which gives a short summary of each adventure that also indicates what opera content is in there, but I'll summarize those plot elements in the following spoiler.
Book 2: Impressed with how the PCs did in book 1, the director makes them co-producers of the opera. This book can be thought of as the production/preparation, and focuses on the PCs tracking down an elusive actor to play the key role of villain, gathering up sponsors for the opera to help finance it, helping to hire actors and composers and costumers and effects workers and all that, helping to determine the name and theme of the opera, handling scandals and unexpected complications during production, and so on.
Book 3: This presents "Hell Month"—the last month before the opera's premiere. The PCs have to help handle a month's worth of last minute disasters and problems, and then the show premieres; the opera is handled using rules similar to a chase, with the PCs having to make all sorts of skill checks as each of the opera's 3 acts play out and complications arise. While the adventure presents the preimere in the 1st chapter, there's advice for GMs who want to have this campaign END with the premiere and how they can shift this event to the end of it all, but you should for sure read the whole adventure before deciding if you want to do that!
Non-Opera Content: There's a parallel plot unfolding alongside the opera one, and that one is one I won't go into great detail, but this parallel plot has less whimsy and more classic Pathfinder action and suspense. In book 1, the non-opera content is about 60% of the adventure. In book 2, the non-opera content is about 40%. In book three, the non-opera content is back to about 60%. But there are plenty of thematic crossovers between all the content so that it still feels right on either side, I hope.
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** spoiler omitted **
We can chat more about that once Book 1 is out and a fair amount of these sorts of questions will be answered already—I don't want to scoop the adventure too much... but...
Thanks for all the sneak peeks James, you’re the man!
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** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **We can chat more about that once Book 1 is out and a fair amount of these sorts of questions will be answered already—I don't want to scoop the adventure too much... but...
** spoiler omitted **
What updates are needed and pertinent to both locations are included in the body of the adventures as appropriate.
GMs, are there any changes to the AP you are making to accommodate your groups? What are they and why?
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So, I'm looking at running Curtain Call after Seven Dooms, for a group that I started at Rusthenge. This gives me a few options for a Nemesis, which is great, and also gives me a bit of a conundrum.
I'm not sure if I want to end Seven Dooms at level 11, and have them hang out at that level for a bit longer as they finish Seven Dooms and the first bit of Curtain Call, let them hit 12 and be slightly overpowered for the first bit of Curtain Call, or just condense the highlights of the first part of Curtain Call into Seven Dooms and skip to the level 12 content.
Right now, I'm leaning towards having the party hang out at 11 for a bit, go through the discovery part, and then hit level 12. But that can change drastically because right now the party just hit level 3, and isn't out of Iron Harbor yet.
So, I'm curious... and understand that this has no bearing at all on anything, but given the adventures that my party is going through (Rusthenge -> Seven Dooms for Sandpoint -> Curtain Call), who should their Nemesis be? Part of me wants to make it
because I think it would be much less expected. Other options that are currently circling my brainpan are
which is the obvious choice, as well as
A couple of those are inside jokes because of epic failed rolls by the party.
Thoughts? Concerns?
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I'd stay flexible, and once you reach the end of Seven Dooms, pick the villian of the many choices you have that the PCs have the most emotional history with. Could be the toughest fight? Could be the first or the last, could even be a sort of amalgamation of the seven dooms. By picking the nemesis your PCs had the toughest time with/the most interaction with, that helps them stay invested.
As for continuing after Seven Dooms, my suggestion is:
The goal of that 1st chapter is really to reacquaint the PCs with their nemesis and prior adventures and get them thinking about it so that when they start building the opera, those memories are rekindled.
You could also just run chapter 1 without giving out any XP.
And of course you can still give out XP as normal. Remember that all encounters shift down a step in challenge, so 12th level PCs will earn less XP in 11th level encounters. Things will slowly but surely adjust so that they're back on schedule, and you can always adjust encoutners on the fly as needed by adding a few more foes or an elite template (but watch out making creatures that are already higher level than the PCs elite!).
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I'd stay flexible, and once you reach the end of Seven Dooms, pick the villian of the many choices you have that the PCs have the most emotional history with. Could be the toughest fight? Could be the first or the last, could even be a sort of amalgamation of the seven dooms. By picking the nemesis your PCs had the toughest time with/the most interaction with, that helps them stay invested.
As for continuing after Seven Dooms, my suggestion is:
** spoiler omitted **
Thank you very much! I'm trying to write some other stuff, but I'm getting a little tongue tied. Thanks!
Since one of my earliest solo campaigns with my wife (then-fiancé) was Hell’s Rebels, I’d been wanting to run this for her as a direct sequel to it — it only seems fitting with it being set in Kintargo.
My initial plan was to have the party consist of prominent NPCs from that adventure who were involved with the Silver Ravens (in our case The Poison Pen, Hetamon, Octavio, etc.), but obviously didn’t fight Barzillai directly. But after reading through book 1, I’m starting to have second thoughts, as the interactions with the Nemesis assume a much more direct involvement in his/her initial defeat. Do you have any suggestions, James?
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Do you have any suggestions, James?
Not a James of any sort, but consider retconning the events of your Hell's Rebels campaign to have ended after A Song of Silver and thus at level 12; and using your Hell's Rebels party as Curtain Call PCs, but skipping the first vignette of Stage Fright.
Alternatively, if you still want to use your second-string Silver Ravens as Curtain Call PCs, and if they managed to directly oppose one or more of Barzillai's lieutenants, and that lieutenant managed to survive (or get resurrected), consider making that lieutenant their nemesis. The ones who comes to mind for me are Hei Fen (appropriate given the Norgorberite themes in Curtain Call), Kyrre Ekodyre, and Tiarese Izoni -- but there are others.
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The nemesis is meant to fill the role of "your group's previous BBEG" and also to be the face of villainy in your opera. They're the Darth Vader/Sauron/Dr. Doom/Queen Alien/Cthulhu/Freddy of the story, and making them someone your players fought against and had a climactic confrontation against is part of the story.
Retconning's not for everyone and it kinda undermines the whole point of building up a heroic legacy to abandon one of previous PCs in order to build a different one, I think—it might be more satisfying to have your Hell's Rebels PCs show up in cameo roles in Curtain Call (the adventures make some suggestions here and there for how this can happen).
The solution of having your PCs build characters who were supporting roles in the Silver Ravens during your previous game is a pretty brilliant one, I think. I'd chat with your players and help generate a list of NPCs from your Hell's Rebel's game who were involved up to the end of book 4, particularly in the re-taking of Kintargo and Barzillai's defeat in the temple. If a player doesn't gel with any of the appropriate NPCs, let them build a brand new PC who was part of the revolution but simply didn't get any screen time in that campaign. Then go through the questions at the end of the Player's Guide but use them to reinforce the PCs' role as support during the revolution. Come up with a reason why your previous PCs aren't in the area anymore (maybe they retired, or moved on to other places or planes, or are part of the Silver Raven leadership and like Shensen are on a secret mission far away from Kintargo during the events of Curtain Call*), which leaves your new cast of Silver Raven PCs in the role of 11th level PCs in Kintargo. Each one of them should have a personal reason to have hated Barzillai, and you can even lean in to the idea that there might be a bit of jealousy or unfufilled vengeance in that some or all of these PCs weren't the ones to strike the death blow against Barzillai.
Then start Curtain Call as-is, with chapter 11 happening and your new group of PCs...
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I'm currently looking at adapting Curtain Call as the conclusion to the unofficial 2e Varisia AP I'm calling Remnants of the Runelords (Rusthenge to Seven Dooms For Sandpoint to Shadows At Sundown). That last adventure puts the PCs at 14th level, which is about where Book 2 of this AP starts. I'm currently looking at excising Chapter 1, since it exists mostly to remind the PCs of the Nemesis,and the first half of Chapter 2, right up until the fete. It sucks losing the encounter with The Final Herald, as I'm intrigued by The Ashen Man and his plots for Golarion, but c'est la vie.
As for the fete, there's verbiage about how each of the socialites match up with one of the persona traits, but there's only seven socialites! It looks like the Leader persona gets skipped out. Did the Leader's socialite get cut during editing?
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I'm currently looking at adapting Curtain Call as the conclusion to the unofficial 2e Varisia AP I'm calling Remnants of the Runelords (Rusthenge to Seven Dooms For Sandpoint to Shadows At Sundown). That last adventure puts the PCs at 14th level, which is about where Book 2 of this AP starts. I'm currently looking at excising Chapter 1, since it exists mostly to remind the PCs of the Nemesis,and the first half of Chapter 2, right up until the fete. It sucks losing the encounter with The Final Herald, as I'm intrigued by The Ashen Man and his plots for Golarion, but c'est la vie.
This sounds cool... but as I've hinted at elsewhere, we DO Have plans in the works for an upcoming but unannounced Adventure Path that will work very well as a sequel to Seven Dooms for Sandpoint.
Seven Dooms also would work well as a lead-in to Curtain Call though! Something to keep in mind, I guess, with you and your players making a choice there.
And while it might vex the canonically-minded... having your players set aside archive copies of their Seven Dooms PCs so that they can branch from that story into divergent, parallel world type things where in one they go on to play Curtain Call, and in another they might (or might not) decide to go on to play this unannounced upcoming Adventure Path could be a good choice to make.
And also: Seven Dooms ends with the PCs reaching 12th level, not 14th level. (The final chapter of encounters are all designed for 11th level PCs.) Which works perfect if you skip Curtain Call's 11th level Chapter 1 and head right into the 12th level Chapter 2.
As for the fete, there's verbiage about how each of the socialites match up with one of the persona traits, but there's only seven socialites! It looks like the Leader persona gets skipped out. Did the Leader's socialite get cut during editing?
EDIT: Your comment about the Leader trait being assigned to Zachrin further reminded me of why I merged the couple into one. Because indeed I didn't want to double-dip. But then I forgot to massage the initial text to indicate that Zachrin does sorta count as one of the socialites for that.
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I'm currently looking at adapting Curtain Call as the conclusion to the unofficial 2e Varisia AP I'm calling Remnants of the Runelords (Rusthenge to Seven Dooms For Sandpoint to Shadows At Sundown). That last adventure puts the PCs at 14th level, which is about where Book 2 of this AP starts. I'm currently looking at excising Chapter 1, since it exists mostly to remind the PCs of the Nemesis,and the first half of Chapter 2, right up until the fete. It sucks losing the encounter with The Final Herald, as I'm intrigued by The Ashen Man and his plots for Golarion, but c'est la vie.This sounds cool... but as I've hinted at elsewhere, we DO Have plans in the works for an upcoming but unannounced Adventure Path that will work very well as a sequel to Seven Dooms for Sandpoint.
Seven Dooms also would work well as a lead-in to Curtain Call though! Something to keep in mind, I guess, with you and your players making a choice there.
And while it might vex the canonically-minded... having your players set aside archive copies of their Seven Dooms PCs so that they can branch from that story into divergent, parallel world type things where in one they go on to play Curtain Call, and in another they might (or might not) decide to go on to play this unannounced upcoming Adventure Path could be a good choice to make.
And also: Seven Dooms ends with the PCs reaching 12th level, not 14th level. (The final chapter of encounters are all designed for 11th level PCs.) Which works perfect if you skip Curtain Call's 11th level Chapter 1 and head right into the 12th level Chapter 2.
As for the fete, there's verbiage about how each of the socialites match up with one of the persona traits, but there's only seven socialites! It looks like the Leader persona gets skipped out. Did the Leader's socialite get cut during editing?EDIT: Your comment about the Leader trait being assigned to Zachrin further reminded me of why I merged the couple into one. Because indeed I...
This is what I get for not following Paizo announcements as I should be, I guess! Looking forward to Mystery Varisia Hijinks AP, then!
I'll probably still run the mods above since my players will have played Rise of the Runelords and Crimson Throne, so this kinda gives a look at what those places look like almost two decades on from the adventures themselves. I don't have any problems using new heroes to deal with demons from the past!
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We haven't yet announced said mystery Adventure Path, so you didn't miss anything. It's something that I've been trying to get the word out here and there as I can, either when the topic comes up like this, or at conventions, or whatever. Setting up Adventure Paths that work well as sequels is a passion of mine so we CAN still offer a 1st to 20th level experience now that we're mostly focusing on 3 part Adventure Paths, but the gap between announcements (sometimes complicated by unexpected developments forcing a move to the planned sequel even further out) makes it tough to make this happen.
Thank you for the advice James! I’m definitely going with the route of supporting characters from Hell’s Rebels now taking the lead. I was already planning on having the Hell’s Rebels PCs make an appearance, so glad to hear that should work well!
I am really missing a Vyre backmatter in this adventure. And I wish we had it in book 2 instead of a new deity. My chaos incarnate players will probably attack everyone in the casino if they start losing or find out they are being cheated.
Are we getting Stat blocks for all the masks of Vyre?
Are the non-norgorberite factions at war with those who are? If so, why would the militia faction send people they've arrested to the prison who they know for a fact is run by the norgorberites?
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I am really missing a Vyre backmatter in this adventure. And I wish we had it in book 2 instead of a new deity. My chaos incarnate players will probably attack everyone in the casino if they start losing or find out they are being cheated.
Are we getting Stat blocks for all the masks of Vyre?
Are the non-norgorberite factions at war with those who are? If so, why would the militia faction send people they've arrested to the prison who they know for a fact is run by the norgorberites?
Chaos players are a GM's responsibility, alas, since we can't give all the information for every possibility.
As for why we didn't do a gazetteer about Vyre, we'd already done that in Hell's Rebels and I kinda didn't want to repeat that. Volume 3 of that earlier Adventure Path has more info if you want to seek it out, but for Curtain Call I chose to focus on new content rather than reprinted, and to try to include all pertinent info for the encounters in Vyre in the encounters themselves. Including an article about a theater-focused deity was much more on-brand for this Adventure Path overall, but also made it 6 pages less complicated to write, since the author of a deity article doesn't also have to be the author of the adventure.
PCs who attack everyone in the casino will face a beyond Extreme encounter. This isn't meant to be a fight, and you should make sure your players know that this Adventure Path rewards talking and roleplaying and isn't meant to be a combat-focused campaign from the start—hopefully that will help your players play along.
As for the other questions:
The non-Norgorber factions in Vyre are lying low since they're generally not the ones in charge and generally the ones who aren't as powerful.
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Pretty sure there's a good deal more Vyre information in this adventure than there was in that gazetteer. Fills out the map more than a bit.
Many thanks for the mechanized textile factory, even if it wasn't able to compete in the labor market absent a more thorough dispossession and immiseration of the people.
Very interesting spoilers!!!
You said BIG THINGS WILL HAPPEN and you did not tell a lie! I love it. Norgorber in the AP this year, Rovagug in the novel by Liane, Akachek in the adventure line, and Treerazer next year. Divine Mysteries coming up. We're going deep on deities and I'm here for it.
When war breaks out, I hope we see more Norgorberites running around doing bad things.
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So I've not read Curtain Call yet, but I'm considering picking it up for my group. If I'd ever run it, I'd like to connect it to an existing AP, as then the players would have more of an attachment. Currently though the AP the group is most likely to finish next is Abomination Vaults, which also seems to be used for the art. I'm wondering though, regarding that connection (spoilers for Abomination Vaults)
How would you reconcile this? Is there a plot reason this could happen without undermining the ending of that AP, or should a different nemesis be focused on instead? And in regards to other APs, how would you feel about the nemesis from those as well?
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So I've not read Curtain Call yet, but I'm considering picking it up for my group. If I'd ever run it, I'd like to connect it to an existing AP, as then the players would have more of an attachment. Currently though the AP the group is most likely to finish next is Abomination Vaults, which also seems to be used for the art. I'm wondering though, regarding that connection (spoilers for Abomination Vaults)
** spoiler omitted **How would you reconcile this? Is there a plot reason this could happen without undermining the ending of that AP, or should a different nemesis be focused on instead? And in regards to other APs, how would you feel about the nemesis from those as well?
My advice (which has some significant campaign spoilers):
1) In the first adventure, the PCs investigate rumors that the Nemesis has come back, which if they know that Belcorra's soul was obliterated by Nhimbaloth, should be extra concerning/intriguing. This version of the Nemesis is in fact a brainchild spawned from the Nemesis's legacy, not the actual Nemesis, so an obliterated Belcorra works perfectly fine here.
2) During the whole campaign, the Nemesis role is a key element portrayed in the opera the PCs are creating, with that role played by a famous actor they have to track down in the 2nd adventure. This doesn't require any remaining fragment of an extant soul either, as it's just an actor playing the part, so an obliterated Belcorra works great here as well.
3) In the third adventure, the soul of the Nemesis gets yanked backwards from the Afterlife to be turned into a time-distorted strange undead creature as a side effect of some Godsrain stuff. That's pretty high-powered narrative juice, and so you could present the returned Belcorra as a partially digested soul that got yanked out of Nhimbaloth's "stomach" and who is awful and distorted and all that, and when the PCs defeat Belcorra again, they could see Nhimbaloth manifest once more to finish eating her soul once and for all.
ALTERNATELY: Rather than have the Nemesis in points 1 and 3 above be Belcorra... it could be a manifestation of Nhimbaloth herself. In this case, point 2 would remain unchanged, since the opera's about Abomination Vaults in this example.
So I've not read Curtain Call yet, but I'm considering picking it up for my group. If I'd ever run it, I'd like to connect it to an existing AP, as then the players would have more of an attachment. Currently though the AP the group is most likely to finish next is Abomination Vaults, which also seems to be used for the art. I'm wondering though, regarding that connection (spoilers for Abomination Vaults)
** spoiler omitted **How would you reconcile this? Is there a plot reason this could happen without undermining the ending of that AP, or should a different nemesis be focused on instead? And in regards to other APs, how would you feel about the nemesis from those as well?
My advice (which has some significant campaign spoilers):
** spoiler omitted **...
Thank you for the advice! I think I've some good ideas on how I'd handle it if given the chance. Seems like a fun follow-up campaign too, if my players are interested. Will probably end up picking at least one of these up at some point, even if my group doesn't want to move onto this.
Sidenote, (spoilers for Outlaws of Alkenstar)
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So in book 2, Father Skinsaw appears (Norgorber himself, not his manifestation) and takes Fenton's mask away.
In book 3, the manifestation of Father Skinsaw, which was created months ago before the start of the adventure and set loose on Vyre to create a superweapon, now has the mask.
Is this an editing error?
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So in book 2, Father Skinsaw appears (Norgorber himself, not his manifestation) and takes Fenton's mask away.
In book 3, the manifestation of Father Skinsaw, which was created months ago before the start of the adventure and set loose on Vyre to create a superweapon, now has the mask.
Is this an editing error?
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** spoiler omitted **So in book 2, Father Skinsaw appears (Norgorber himself, not his manifestation) and takes Fenton's mask away.
In book 3, the manifestation of Father Skinsaw, which was created months ago before the start of the adventure and set loose on Vyre to create a superweapon, now has the mask.
Is this an editing error?
Why does he do that?
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Why does he do that?** spoiler omitted **So in book 2, Father Skinsaw appears (Norgorber himself, not his manifestation) and takes Fenton's mask away.
In book 3, the manifestation of Father Skinsaw, which was created months ago before the start of the adventure and set loose on Vyre to create a superweapon, now has the mask.
Is this an editing error?
Because he felt it was thematically amusing to do so.