Elemental Animal Companions

[ElementalofCuteness]

I am new to the Elements and in extension the Undead companions but not to the old Animal Companions. I been reading the rules over and over again but why does the Fire Elemental for example have a attribute modifier of

+2 Str, +2 Dex, +1 Con, -4 Int, +1 Wis, +0 Cha. (This is the default unmodified Attributes for an Animal Companion)

When the rules stated Animal Companions get two additional +1s to to their attributes. Did I miss a rule that stat Undead & Elements lose those two additional +1s? If so can I please be directed to the Achieves of Nethys page which happens to state this rule?

Air Elementals are even stranger with

+1 Str, +2 Dex, +1 Con, -4 Int, +1 Wis, +1 Cha

By the rules given is this even technically RAW to perform? I do not remember seeing you could penalties one attribute to increase another one.

[Squark]

I don't know if it's explicitly stated anywhere, but it's definitely intended to balance the additional immunities undead and elemental companions get. Construct companions are above the animal companion baseline since they also have the drawback of not having any magic work to heal them in addition to the immunities from not being a beast.

Since player's can't create their own animal companion types without GM say-so anyway, the passage about how animal companion attributes are generated is just a guideline for homebrewing anyway. Paizo has been breaking their own guidelines since as early as the APG- The Riding drake has a +1 in Dex and a +2 Cha.

[ElementalofCuteness]

Is this true that those were just guidelines and not solid rules? Well then I have a massive hole in my information because then that means... Oh no some Undead companions are stronger then what they need to be...

[Squark]

I don't really know what to call it. Homebrew Guidelines? Designer's Commentary? But I can say that they've felt no obligation to follow what they describe in that passage to the letter in subsequent passages.

Since custom "base" animal/elemental/undead companions exist only in the realm of homebrew, the discussion is kind of academic. Between undead companions and Elemental companions both having weaker stat profiles than animal companions, we can definitely infer that this was intentional, but unless there's a developer commentary or interview out there I'm unaware of, we don't have a solid answer for you.

[Easl]

Hmmm...I'm not seeing any bonus attributes given out to regular young animal companions in PC1 (page 206). Could someone direct me to that? Looks to me like for elemental companions you'd just start with the attributes given in RoE and, per the rules on PC1 page 211, advance them as you would any other companion.

[ElementalofCuteness]

The bird has +3 Dex and +2 Wisdom while the Fire Elemental has +2 Dex an +1 Wis to make up for the Elemental Immunity to Sleep, BLeed, Poison and Paralysis. Which makes sense why they'd have lower attributes but does the immunities helps that much?

[Easl]

ElementalofCuteness wrote:

The bird has +3 Dex and +2 Wisdom while the Fire Elemental has +2 Dex an +1 Wis to make up for the Elemental Immunity to Sleep, BLeed, Poison and Paralysis. Which makes sense why they'd have lower attributes but does the immunities helps that much?

I'm not sure what to tell you. The stat blocks are the stat blocks, they are RAW even if you personally think they are underpowered. We know RoE was rushed to production, so it's possible the devs didn't compare the new companion write-ups to the old ones to do a proper balancing. But AFAIK we have no indication that this is the case or that the companion stat blocks in RoE are any sort of error.

If, as a GM, you think they should be buffed up by 1 point in two abilities, I don't think that will terribly unbalance the game. OTOH if, as a player, you are looking for some official rules as written text that indicates that the elemental companion stats should be 1 point higher in two stats, I don't think you're going to find it.

[Squark]

Easl wrote:

Hmmm...I'm not seeing any bonus attributes given out to regular young animal companions in PC1 (page 206). Could someone direct me to that? Looks to me like for elemental companions you'd just start with the attributes given in RoE and, per the rules on PC1 page 211, advance them as you would any other companion.

I'm not sure of the exact page number, but demiplane's listing suggests the wording didn't change from the CRB to Player core. To be clear, these are not extra attribute modifiers the player gets to distribute, but changes from a baseline that are built into a companion's starting stats.

As for balance... most players and guides seem to think the elemental companions are not worth it apart from maybe the fire and metal elementals*. You could probably add a +1 attribute somewhere and things would be fine, but I don't see an official change happening any time soon.

*For the fire immunity and decent support abilities respectively

[Perpdepog]

Easl wrote:

Hmmm...I'm not seeing any bonus attributes given out to regular young animal companions in PC1 (page 206). Could someone direct me to that? Looks to me like for elemental companions you'd just start with the attributes given in RoE and, per the rules on PC1 page 211, advance them as you would any other companion.

IIRC there aren't any bonus attribute points handed out. All I know of regarding animal companion attributes is this passage, which is from the premaster Core Rulebook. I don't know if it is replicated in Player Core 1.

"Animal Companions, p. 214" wrote:

An animal companion begins with base ability modifiers of Str +2, Dex +2, Con +1, Int –4, Wis +1, Cha +0. Each type has its own strengths and increases two of these modifiers by 1 each. These increases are already calculated into the stat blocks in Companion Types below.

Which is admittedly a bit misleading considering how many animal companions break that formula. Personally I think they should have said something more like,

Modified Animal Companions wrote:

An animal companion begins with base ability modifiers of Str +1, Dex +1, Con +1, Int –4, Wis +1, Cha +0. Each type has its own strengths and increases four of these modifiers by 1 or more. Some animal companions may reduce a modifier in order to raise another elsewhere. These modifications are already calculated into the stat blocks in Companion Types below.

[ElementalofCuteness]

That would be very nice if they did that last one. Also why does the Fire Elemental Tendril not have the Fire trait?

[Easl]

ElementalofCuteness wrote:

Also why does the Fire Elemental Tendril not have the Fire trait?

It doesn't look like any of the advanced maneuvers change the damage type to an elemental type. So the fire elemental companion is written consistently with the other elemental companions in that respect. Again, maybe not your choice, but seems unlikely to be an error.

[ElementalofCuteness]

But it deals fire damage...So not having Fire Trait is like saying Fireball shouldn't but they both deal Fire damage, so I am asking does the default Fire Trait on the Fire Elemental itself get used?

[shroudb]

ElementalofCuteness wrote:

But it deals fire damage...So not having Fire Trait is like saying Fireball shouldn't but they both deal Fire damage, so I am asking does the default Fire Trait on the Fire Elemental itself get used?

A torch deals fire damage and doesn't have the fire trait.

Similarly, attacks that deal fire damage don't necessarily have said trait.

Even if we look at something like a magma elemental, his molten fist doesn't have a fire trait.
While his launch magma attack, that creates magma, has it.

Fire trait is more for effects that create fire rather than for anything that's simply flaming.

Quote:

Effects with the fire trait deal fire damage or either conjure or manipulate fire. Those that manipulate fire have no effect in an area without fire. Creatures with this trait consist primarily of fire or have a connection to magical fire.

So something with the Fire trait will deal fire damage but that doesn't simultaneously mean that everything that deals fire damage needs that trait.

Furthermore, looking at something like Elemental Weakness Hex, we can see that it acknowledges that there are effects without the trait that still deal fire damage. (Simplest example being a Strike with a flaming sword, in which the Strike itself lacks the trait)