I am worried about the lack of armor.

[TheGentlemanDM]

Gobhaggo wrote:

True, forgot to think of that.

Though 1 level 1 feat might not work since Exemplars don't get a level 1 feat

Which is something that I overlooked.

It's weird to have a martial class without one.

[Captain Morgan]

They already get 3 major choices at level 1 though for their ikons.

[OceanshieldwolPF 2.5]

Captain Morgan wrote:

They already get 3 major choices at level 1 though for their ikons.

Given PF2 is kinda feat based though, feats are a major place to provide options and power. The 3 major choices are what the class gives in it’s “power/option” budget, as every martial class similarly gives a power/option budget, whatever that may be. Then….feats.

So…maybe this one should too?

[Karmagator]

Captain Morgan wrote:

They already get 3 major choices at level 1 though for their ikons.

Devil's advocate here. Fighter also gets expert in weapons, trained in all armor, Reactive Strike and for some also Shield Block. Two to all of those are active at the same time, unlike the Exemplar. They still get a level 1 feat.

It might be a good idea to avoid overloading the player with choices at level 1, but I don't think the power level really justifies this difference. At least not clearly.

[pauljathome]

TheGentlemanDM wrote:

Gobhaggo wrote:

True, forgot to think of that.

Though 1 level 1 feat might not work since Exemplars don't get a level 1 feat

Which is something that I overlooked.

It's weird to have a martial class without one.

A level 1 feat is also extremely poachable. Have to make sure it isn't too useful for monks.

[Darth Grall]

I am fine with them being lighter on armor at least for the build I went for but that's because I think the healing loop with the Scars Body Ikon & Edge Weapon Ikon felt pretty fun and being a character who heals through their damage rather than straight avoiding it is a sorta unique playstyle in 2e and I'm not sure if it works if they get much better AC though.

For characters that aren't using those specific options, it didn't seem too hard to max out your AC by level 5 once you get your second boosts; I just seemed like you aren't able to do a STR build that dumps DEX completely which is fine to me. Sorta feels like how DEX builds still need some STR for their finesse weapon/armor options. A 14 Dex (About as much as STR I'm seeing in DEX Builds) at level 1 only puts you 1 AC behind your contemporaries and then you catch up at 5, and of course every +1 helps, but I don't think that's crippling.

That all said, I do feel like we'll see some sorta armored option at release I just don't know if we should see Heavy Armor.

[YuriP]

Karmagator wrote:

Captain Morgan wrote:

They already get 3 major choices at level 1 though for their ikons.

Devil's advocate here. Fighter also gets expert in weapons, trained in all armor, Reactive Strike and for some also Shield Block. Two to all of those are active at the same time, unlike the Exemplar. They still get a level 1 feat.

It might be a good idea to avoid overloading the player with choices at level 1, but I don't think the power level really justifies this difference. At least not clearly.

In fact I was building my playtest Exemplar and my main impression here in the forums is that the class is currently a bit overrated by many.

OK many Ikons, specially the weapons ones, are bit stronger but in comparison with fighter is really so much strong?

Analyzing critically one by one:

Barrow’s Edge: This one is one of the best and most unique of exemplars abilities IMO. A resourceless true life-stealing (real healing not a temp HP) that only costs you 1-action transcendent that you only use if you hit! This ability prizes you to take the most higher dice damage weapon that you can and to boost your strength and as bonus does a bit persistent spiritual damage. If combined with Scar of The Survivor this basically allows to make an undying frontline big sword martial that does a good amount of damage and doesn't care to much about being hit. Yet you aren't the best melee DPR of the game but combines well a good survivability with a good offensive power.

Fated Shot: This could be fantastic because Rain of Seven Lights acts like a save spell (there's no attack trait) but the Spark Transcendence prevent that you take the advantage of Strike + Save more than once because in the next round you will need to use an action to move your Spark from other Ikon back to your weapon and this breaks your action economy. Yet it still useful if you want to get some ranged AoE starting from level 1 but outside of this due the hurt in the action economy your single target DPR effectives is low.

Gleaming Blade: Honestly the main Transcendent activity "Mirrored Spirit Strike" is clunk and a strange Double Slice that also gives a bit additional spirit damage. OK its works strangely well if you are using a big 1d12 sword and don't cares about get -2 to hit in your second Strike (yet there are better damage ikons for this) but if you try to use with an agile weapon it will give you the same benefit of a fighter using 2 weapons and Double Slice with a +2 additional damage per Strike with a worse action economy due the Spark.

Noble Branch: Its just meh! Your Transcendent is just do 1-4 spiritual damage if you hit your last Strike.

Titan’s Breaker: At first glance looks impressive but its just a Power Attack with some additional damage but without Furious Focus and a worse action economy due Transcendence forcing you to move your spark between ikons. Honestly this doesn't impress me and a barbarian with a fighter MC can do this way better starting from level 4 and also can taking Furious Focus in level 12 and without hurt the action economy.

Due I many times complained about Spark hurting the action economy above lets analise what you get with other Ikons when you have to move spark to them:
Body:

Eye-Catching Spot: A meh Immanence that basically gives you +1 AC vs melee attack indirectly (-1 circumstance bonus to your enemies melee attacks against you) due your big maderaka beauty spot. It's flavorful but mechanically meh. Also Transcend activity is a terrible 2-actions save check to try to make someone fascinated (IMO the most meh condition of the game).

Gaze Sharp As Steel: Not so bad as the ikon above but still weak IMO. Its main ability IMO is give you +2 status AC vs ranged but this is situational. The Transcend of use an action to get able to use an Attack of Oportunity Reaction Strike is a very bad action economy that gives the Spark back to you but due the restriction of only use 1 Transcend activity per round breaks even this utility.

Scar of The Survivor is good off-combat healing but due the restriction of only one Transcend ability per round this prevent you to use other ikons Transcend in the same round and ends become worse than Barrow’s Edge in battle.

Skin Hard as Horn: Its a very potent damage resistance ability with a good Transcend. Yet I still prefer Scar of The Survivor because I use the same action to heal and specially in higher levels the physical damage isn't the only type of damage that you get specially vs spellcaster creatures.
Worn:

Palisade Bangles: Its a good ikon if you want to do a tank exemplar but to be really good need to be combined with other players builds (what's is strange specially if you are playing a society game) or you will be forced to be the one with the shield. It's Transcend ability is interesting but situation and will break your Immanence.

Skybearer’s Belt: Its Immanence is meh. It's Transcend can be useful sometimes but its also expensive to your action economy.

Thousand-League Sandals: Its Immanence very useful out of combat and is a good option to use in your first round to position every-one and them will switch your Spark to your weapon. Probably is the best inter ikon integration in the class.

Victor’s Wreath: Its Immanence is pretty good because it's an actionless Inspire Corage with a shorter area. Its Transcend ability is very useful to allow your allies to recover from any condition or negative effect whats great.

So my general view is that most ikons hurt your action economy or simply doesn't integrate well. If you want to use the same ikon each round you are forced to burn an action with Shift Immanence what hurts your action economy with a basically effectless action. If you choose to rotate your spark you have to deal that most ikons doesn't interact well and most Ikon improvement feats are weapon only what desincentives the spark rotation too.
If we sum this with the fact that the Exemplar chassis doesn't get any reaction nor armor and don't get a lvl 1 feat I have doubt if it is so competitive with other martial classes that we currently have.

[aobst128]

Noble branch does extra dice not just the number of dice.

[YuriP]

You're right I misunderstand it. But it still pretty meh! It's a Brutal Finish without the new check to Strike (just the failure effect) and that requires you have hit your last Strike.

[Captain Morgan]

Karmagator wrote:

Captain Morgan wrote:

They already get 3 major choices at level 1 though for their ikons.

Devil's advocate here. Fighter also gets expert in weapons, trained in all armor, Reactive Strike and for some also Shield Block. Two to all of those are active at the same time, unlike the Exemplar. They still get a level 1 feat.

It might be a good idea to avoid overloading the player with choices at level 1, but I don't think the power level really justifies this difference. At least not clearly.

I never said it was a power thing. It is a complexity of choices thing as your second paragraph aludes to. It is pretty unusual for a class progression to have three major build choices at level 1, and I think four is unprecedented. Most martials get a class path and a class feat for two. Most casters pick power source (bloodline/god/patron/muse) and their spells and that's it.

The closest point of comparison is probably the Thaumaturge. They get a class feat and an implement at first level. They don't get a class feat and 3 implements at first level. Given 3 ikons are necessary for the class's gameplay loop and the interplay between them is somewhat complex, I don't expect to see a fourth major build choice added. If the class needs a buff to its power budget, I'd expect to see stronger ikons or armor proficiency.

[Puna'chong]

Kineticist gets four picks (dual or single element, two impulses, 1st level feat).

[Captain Morgan]

Puna'chong wrote:

Kineticist gets four picks (dual or single element, two impulses, 1st level feat).

Fair point. And I suppose if any other class was going to get more complexity added, it would be the rare "pivot my power set every round" class. That said, I still wouldn't expect to get a class feat on the exemplar any more than I would on casters. Paizo doesn't think 1st level caster feats are too powerful or they wouldn't have bothered printing them. They just think there are only so many choices they can ask players to make at first level and spells adds a lot to choose from. I think the exemplar would need to lose a choice before it gets another, and they can't lose any ikons.

[aobst128]

YuriP wrote:

You're right I misunderstand it. But it still pretty meh! It's a Brutal Finish without the new check to Strike (just the failure effect) and that requires you have hit your last Strike.

Not exactly like brutal finish. That only goes up to 2 dice at 18th level on the failure effect. The fact you use it after a successful strike is a good thing actually when you're comparing it to the other 2 action transcendence abilities. Effectively, it is protected from being able to be wasted. Better damage than power attack for 2 actions. Not bad really.

[pixierose]

TBH I am really enjoying the idea of the 1st level Epithet/choice to help pick out what kind or armor(or lack of armor) you can utilize.

[Sanityfaerie]

I recognize that many people won't find this answer satisfying, but you really don't need Sentinel/Champion for this.

You get a general feat at level 3. Spend that on armor proficiency. You'll want dex of at least +1 anyway. Get your dex up to +2 at 5 and +3 at 10, at which point you don't need medium armor anymore and can retrain your level 3 general feat to something else. You don't get light armor expertise until 13 anyway, so the lack of scaling simply never comes up.

If level 3 is too late for you, you can roll a Versatile Heritage human (not a human with a versatile heritage, but a human with the speceific heritage "Versatile Heritage") and get it at level 1, or briefly take sentinel at level 2 before retraining back out of it at level 3.

PossibleCabbage wrote:

You can make this work on a monk, but you're going to either need Mountain Stance or you're going for a +5 Dex Mod.

There's also Scales of the Dragon off of Dragon Disciple archetype... though that isn't available until level 4.

[YuriP]

The main advantage of get sentinel dedication is to get heavy armor. So unless you want to get it don't worth the investment in Sentinel Dedication.

[Pronate11]

Sanityfaerie wrote:

I recognize that many people won't find this answer satisfying, but you really don't need Sentinel/Champion for this.

You get a general feat at level 3. Spend that on armor proficiency. You'll want dex of at least +1 anyway. Get your dex up to +2 at 5 and +3 at 10, at which point you don't need medium armor anymore and can retrain your level 3 general feat to something else. You don't get light armor expertise until 13 anyway, so the lack of scaling simply never comes up.

If level 3 is too late for you, you can roll a Versatile Heritage human (not a human with a versatile heritage, but a human with the speceific heritage "Versatile Heritage") and get it at level 1, or briefly take sentinel at level 2 before retraining back out of it at level 3.

Imagine if this is how the barbarian worked. It also has thematic reasons to be lightly or unarmored. But as barbarians are str based, every player

would needed to either pump a secondary stat as high as they possibly could at level 1, or take a 3rd level general feat, still boost that secondary stat to the same levels just later, and then retrain out of that feat later. Is any new player going to pick that up? That player wants to utilize the class feats that work with charisma, like raging intimidation? well better go on this path of specific feats you need to train out of latter so your not stuck with a 12 in cha and con at level 1. No one would be happy with that. Sure, you can deal with it, but you also don't need to deal with it if the barbarian is proficient in medium armor.

[shroudb]

pixierose wrote:

TBH I am really enjoying the idea of the 1st level Epithet/choice to help pick out what kind or armor(or lack of armor) you can utilize.

thank you, the main reason i proposed that though, i admit, is because i like "build along" mechanics.

and epithets are one such thing that is under utilized.

from my experience with inventor and thaum, classes that build along just 3 times in their whole career (like epithets are now) are much less enjoyable than those that build up a 1 and every 4 levels therefore (like kineticist, thaum, etc)

[PossibleCabbage]

Sanityfaerie wrote:

I recognize that many people won't find this answer satisfying, but you really don't need Sentinel/Champion for this.

You get a general feat at level 3. Spend that on armor proficiency. You'll want dex of at least +1 anyway. Get your dex up to +2 at 5 and +3 at 10, at which point you don't need medium armor anymore and can retrain your level 3 general feat to something else. You don't get light armor expertise until 13 anyway, so the lack of scaling simply never comes up.

If level 3 is too late for you, you can roll a Versatile Heritage human (not a human with a versatile heritage, but a human with the speceific heritage "Versatile Heritage") and get it at level 1, or briefly take sentinel at level 2 before retraining back out of it at level 3.

This same thing came up in the Kineticist playtest too. While "a character is a point of AC down until 3rd level" is workable, the whole "take a feat with the intention of retraining out of it" feels like unsavory gamesmanship and it probably shouldn't be a standard option.

I'm planning on playtesting a "Heals every round" exemplar (just juggling between Barrow's Edge and Scar of the Survivor) I should make a point of doing it at low levels (when your AC isn't great) and like level 13 when your AC is fine. I think this character's level 1 stats should be Str 18, Dex 12, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 16 for how I'm imagining them.

[Solarsyphon]

Quote:

The classic Spartans are usually shown wearing gleaming golden breastplates.

Sorry, I should have said "The classic image most people think of thanks to modern media."

Nah we want the pseudo homoerotic almost naked himbo's of 300. All stat points into abs

On a more serious note I think the main reason to not allow heavy armor is to distinguish it from the champion which is the heavy armored holy warrior. The exemplar is the opposite direction being a lightly armored glass cannon holy warrior.

[exequiel759]

Solarsyphon wrote:

On a more serious note I think the main reason to not allow heavy armor is to distinguish it from the champion which is the heavy armored holy warrior. The exemplar is the opposite direction being a lightly armored glass cannon holy warrior.

A breastplate isn't heavy armor.

[PossibleCabbage]

I mean, the Spartans (like most of the rest of Greece) wore bronze breastplates. This just largely stopped because armor was very expensive (and people were responsible for their own) and it wasn't that necessary in the phalanx. But even when the normal armor was a linothorax (like gambeson) the rich important people still wore breastplates.

[aobst128]

The strength/charisma build will still want scaling medium or heavy armor

[Gobhaggo]

While I propose the simple solution of just giving Medium armour, I do like the idea of giving epithets every 3-4 levels