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So, let me preface this by saying that A, yes, some people make choices based on fluff/story/roleplaying - I tend to do so as well. Doesn't stop me from sitting back and scratching my head over how some mechanics work out; and that's what I'm questioning here.
So, new character, Animal Instinct Barb, 1st level. PFS, if it matters any. Played in my first scenario with this character yesterday, and didn't rage until the boss battle because there was no need. Str +4, using greataxe. Cat instinct (Ulfen werelynx, etc).
So I rage, lose my d12+4 greataxe, in favor of a d10+6 and a d6+6 attack option, lose AC, etc. Two extra points of guaranteed damage on a hit is nice, but I was really left feeling that raging didn't benefit me in the long run - I felt like I was overall doing more damage with the greataxe than I was with my bite, plus the AC drop when I raged helped see my poor Ulfen drop like a brick early on.
For the sake of damage, does Animal Instinct get better/"worth it" at higher levels?
Well, if just looking at damage per hit your stiffest competition would be from a Fighter or maybe a Precision Ranger. Both could use a greataxe to ease the comparison.
I haven't calculated all of the numbers to check, but those options should all do quite well.
Some things that I am aware of from Animal Barbarian: At level 7 you get Weapon Specialization and Specialization Ability that will increase your static damage from your class from +2 to +7 (+2 +5). Then at level 13 it will get a minor boost from Weapon Specialization to +8. At level 15 it gets another major bump from Greater Specialization and Specialization Ability up to +18 (+6 +12). And all of that is in addition to your Strength bonus and weapon damage.
Thanks all for the input. I doubt I'll ever see level 7 with this guy, considering it's PFS, but I'm sticking with him anyway. I love the feel and thematics, I was mostly curious if I was seeing things right with that issue. It does strike me as a touch odd; two hands free does mean things like shield - but I can't speak for everyone, but when I envision a big pissed-off werewolf, at no point do I envision said werewolf carrying around a shield. XD
I've been playing with an Animal Instinct Barbarian for ages now in Extinction Curse. We're all 17th level now. He is *scary* in the best way. Bear, in case you were wondering.
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Thanks all for the input. I doubt I'll ever see level 7 with this guy, considering it's PFS
You certainly easily can if you play it a lot.
Level 7 is only 18 games away. In some places you could do that in a couple of months easy. And if there isn't much local play there are still quite a few online games.
Even at one game every 2 weeks that is less than a year of play.
Thanks all for the input. I doubt I'll ever see level 7 with this guy, considering it's PFS, but I'm sticking with him anyway. I love the feel and thematics, I was mostly curious if I was seeing things right with that issue. It does strike me as a touch odd; two hands free does mean things like shield - but I can't speak for everyone, but when I envision a big pissed-off werewolf, at no point do I envision said werewolf carrying around a shield. XD
I don't imagine a big pissed off werewolf carrying a weapon.
Sounds like you should if just made a beastkin fighter though
Did you just take sudden charge?
Thanks all for the input. I doubt I'll ever see level 7 with this guy, considering it's PFS, but I'm sticking with him anyway. I love the feel and thematics, I was mostly curious if I was seeing things right with that issue. It does strike me as a touch odd; two hands free does mean things like shield - but I can't speak for everyone, but when I envision a big pissed-off werewolf, at no point do I envision said werewolf carrying around a shield. XDI don't imagine a big pissed off werewolf carrying a weapon.
Sounds like you should if just made a beastkin fighter though
Did you just take sudden charge?
I did take Sudden Charge, yes. I've got another thread discussing Beastkin, actually; rogue or ranger would be a good class fit as well. But Beastkin only get d4 for their natural attack, and while fluff is important, if I'm going to be a front liner, I gotta earn my keep XD
So I rage, lose my d12+4 greataxe, in favor of a d10+6 and a d6+6 attack option, lose AC, etc. Two extra points of guaranteed damage on a hit is nice, but I was really left feeling that raging didn't benefit me in the long run - I felt like I was overall doing more damage with the greataxe than I was with my bite
That might be the feeling, but it isn't true. Mathematically, a damage die bump is equal to one point of damage on average. So 1d12+4 = 1d10+5 in the long run. You're coming out ahead with the rage. Now, the agile attack will definitely do less damage on your first strike and might on the second as well (several damage dice and half rage) but may still come out ahead if you're doing a third attack.
You'll also notice the difference more once runes come into play, assuming you enchant handwraps and not the axe.
However, if you don't want to utilize the superior defenses and flexibility of the animal instinct in favor of raw damage, and carrying an axe clearly doesn't bother you... Than play a dragon instinct beast kin. Even if you don't use the bite you wind up a very similar thematic vibe and more damage. (1d12+8.)
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I think people are forgetting that for PFS the Beastkin versatile heritage is, in fact, rare per the tag and thus can only be accessed with enough points saved up to buy it. The user may not have the points on hand to simply just unlock this heritage. I know I don't.
The other problem is the cost. Have a weapon and natural Strikes means that you have the double of the cost with runes that makes this economically prohibitive. So this 1d12+4 probably is inviable after level 1.
I've gotten my answers, looked at my math, etc, and it's all good now - but I have another question stemming from this thread - a lot of answers saying "you seem to love the axe"... makes me wonder what do -you- do with a 1st level Animal Barbarian? It's not about wanting to keep the axe, the axe is to, y'know, have a weapon when I'm not raging. IF I went with Orc, I'd be more than happy to be a pugilist and not use manufactured weapons at all; but as an Ulfen human, having an axe until I go all furry and feral just seemed like the most sensible thing. :P
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I rage immediately usually
I rage immediately usually
Granted, it depends largely on playstyle, GM, etc, but when I only have 12 rounds of Rage, I find I want to hold back to make sure I have them available for the "main course", as it were. ((Especially considering this specific character is in PFS, who usually has a 'BBEG' for each session.))
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but when I only have 12 rounds of Rage,
That sounds like edition confusion.
PF2 Rage lasts for 1 minute (10 rounds). Most battles last about 4 to 6 rounds.
And Rage renews automatically after 1 minute after the Rage ends.
There is no limit to the number of times per day that you can use Rage.
At least not a practical limit that you are actually going to reach. There is technically a theoretical limit based on the number of minutes in a day, but...
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but when I only have 12 rounds of Rage,That sounds like edition confusion.
PF2 Rage lasts for 1 minute (10 rounds). Most battles last about 4 to 6 rounds.
And Rage renews automatically after 1 minute after the Rage ends.
There is no limit to the number of times per day that you can use Rage.
At least not a practical limit that you are actually going to reach. There is technically a theoretical limit based on the number of minutes in a day, but...
...
This just in, I am apparently a potato and you are quite correct. That settles a lot of things, then. Thank you for pointing this out to me~
but when I only have 12 rounds of Rage,That sounds like edition confusion.
PF2 Rage lasts for 1 minute (10 rounds). Most battles last about 4 to 6 rounds.
And Rage renews automatically after 1 minute after the Rage ends.
There is no limit to the number of times per day that you can use Rage.
At least not a practical limit that you are actually going to reach. There is technically a theoretical limit based on the number of minutes in a day, but...
You can also extend the rage duration with Second Wind but being honest I never saw this being used.
You can also extend the rage duration with Second Wind but being honest I never saw this being used.
I have seen one battle that lasted so long that the two Barbarians were about a round or two away from running out of the 10 round Rage time. It was a multi-stage battle where the enemies were fighting from a fortified location that we had to spend time dismantling and then additional fresh enemies joined the battle after we were nearly done with the first wave.
Curiously despite the lower AC the barbarian becomes pretty resistant due their high HP. Sometime endures more than heavy armored fighters.
Curiously despite the lower AC the barbarian becomes pretty resistant due their high HP. Sometime endures more than heavy armored fighters.
Sometimes. It depends on what they are up against.
What I have noticed in my limited experience playing alongside both classes:
Against a bunch of lower level enemies the Barbarian can handle more chip damage than the Fighter can.
Against higher level enemies the hits that the Fighter is taking will go through their HP slower than the crits that the Barbarian is taking.
Depends on the barbarian, too.
Giant Instinct with a two handed weapon actually does eat enough crit to end up being kinda glass cannon even with all of those HP.
Animal Instinct with a good shield (and grabbing block) is a super thick meat wall.
Giant Instinct with a two handed weapon actually does eat enough crit to end up being kinda glass cannon even with all of those HP.
Can confirm. We just had ours go from full HP to KO in one round. Granted that was from 3 equal level enemies hitting him at once. But still...
Also, had to go check. Not Giant instinct. The one in our game that just went down in one enemy volley is a Dragon instinct with a 2-hand weapon.