With Rage of Elements announced for 2023 and the Kineticist seemingly the sole playtest for next year, it seems the wait for a focused expansion on divine options will be a little bit longer... but we haven't formally had this discussion in quite some time, so I figured its worth reviving! The arcane got some love with Secrets of Magic, Guns & Gears delivered to mechanical martials, occult spookiness permeated the Dark Archive, and now Rage of Elements is full of primal wrath - so the blessed and the damned seem due for their turn eventually.
What would you want from such a book? What new classes and class options would you hope for within its covers? What's a novel framing device and additional content for it to hold? This is my favorite thematic space, and I've love to hear what everyone's wishes are.
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Book of the Dead was divine based and a big book.
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Book of the Dead was divine based and a big book.
It was consistently described as a bestiary, had a narrow theme, and included no classes. I don't think it's really a fair comparison.
Rage of the elements was described as being similar to the Book of the Dead.
And Secrets of Magic is not really an Arcane book, it does not favor arcane at all, it's a magic book and it basically have all traditions on it.
While I'm not really a fan of lumping the books into expectations for primarily one tradition or not (Dark Archive was pretty unique for being primarily occult-themed, and Rage of Elements seems to be more 'Elemental Planes and Elemental Planes accessories' than full Primal), I will say if we get a book whose design ethos is primarily divine-adjacent, it would be absolutely hilarious if it was written as though the bookkeepers of different faiths were vying for space on the page in various levels of tones. Similar to the forewords between the tradition masters in Secrets of Magic.
As for options and contents within the book? Obviously, a couple more Cleric doctrines would be interesting. Maybe an option for an (ironically) godless Champion?
It's hard to talk about specific gods, since that starts to tread the line of Lost Omens line products rather than rulebook products. But perhaps some kind of suggested variant system for creating custom Boons and Curses for players in campaigns where the gods of Golarion aren't present, or perhaps are following splinter sects of gods, or similar situations.
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My ideal framing would be that the work is a collection of Tabris' writings because I was a big fan of Book of the Damned, Chronical of the Righteous, and Concordance of Rivals, but them being the collected snippets of a scholar of a more knowledge-focused faith or member of the Esoteric Order of the Palatine Eye would also be cool.
Or, for a twist, the book is a field manual to how to combat faiths as written by the Rahadoumi Pure Legion.
Glad you've enjoyed those Tabris-penned pages! I imagine the Pure Legion would provide an interesting (albeit biased) perspective, though the notion of a Knowledge-domain priest would be the better approach in most cases.
Ooooh...or a 2-page section where the same concept or myth is examined and retold from four different scholarly traditions. For example, the battle to seal Rovagug as told by a Rahadoumi scholar, a Hellknight paravicar, a Sarenrite priest, and a Sarkorian god-caller.
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I could see a book written from the perspective of a priest of nethys meticulously documenting different aspects of faith.....including the inquisitor and or shaman
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There’s three big wants on my list, personally.
I’ve made plenty of ruckus about wanting the Inquisitor back. Champions cover defense and Clerics play support, but the fantasy of being an offense-focused agent of holy wrath is not currently covered well by 2e as-is. There’s enough thematic and design space for a full class here, and with Kineticist coming, it’s now the 1e class with the loudest crowd behind it. Some folks have expressed concern about the name, and I honestly don’t care either way; so long as the new name isn’t terrible, I’ll be content.
Support for non-deistic characters of faith. In a perfect world, this is done through a heavy Shaman rework, one that potentially rolls in elements of the old Medium, as this is the other class I’m clamoring for and it opens up a lot of character concepts. This could go hand-in-hand with profiling other spiritualities within the setting, which I would absolutely welcome.
Last is LN Champions, whose absence is striking giving the prominence of the character type both within Golarion (see the popularity of Hellknights) and the broader fantasy genre. The idea of an unflinching warrior of Law is iconic, while its presence also opens Champions up to some gods for whom Good or Evil feel a little out of character. I know many would want this paired with CN Champions (which I would welcome!), but I’m not greedy - the one would suffice.
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I'm less interested in a Divine book than an Occult book, Primal book, or Arcane book.
But my main want from a big Divine book is a deep dive into the various religions in Golarion that are unrelated to "Gods" (e.g. Rivethun, Sangpotshi, Juju & Wendo, etc.) and to provide options for playing Champions for people from these faiths.
The Cleric can remain the "God" class, sure, but you should be able to be a Champion of all those other sincerely held beliefs too. Having far more mechanical support for "I worship Iomedae" than "I believe the spirits of my ancestors watch over me" sends the unfortunate message that the Iomedaens are "correct" in a way that the ancestor worshipers are not.
I'd also appreciate more detail on the thousand gods of Vudra.
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I want the divine prestige classes back as either open archetypes or class archetypes for Cleric, Champion and maybe oracle. Inquisitor would be cool. The CN and LN champion causes.
Most of all I want Divine fighting techniques back as combat style archetypes. I specifically want Bladed Brush, Shooting Star and Tankard and Rapier above others but I would like to see as many as possible. I just don't see this happening tho because it takes a lot of room to print specific feats for a bunch of deities. If they don't appear in a book it would be nice if they could slowly appear as web supplements like some of the extra deites added to Gods and Magic afterwards.
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A Divine-ish book should expand upon deities and religions in general. More gods. More Empyreal Lords and Demon Lords, introduce other alignment-based demigods (Sakhil Tormentors, Daemonic Harbingers, Infernal Dukes, and so on). A deeper look at non-theistic religions like the Green Faith and the Prophecies of Kalistrade, and maybe ancestral traditions like the dwarven Rivethun or the elven Brightness. More Celestials, Fiends, and Monitors as well.
For players, I think the Medium would be good. The class could have complexity on par with the Kineticist depending on how they do it. If it's more streamlined, then adding the Inquisitor would also be good. I'd like Archetypes, and hopefully the Neutral Champions.
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Does Gods and Magic not count...? It didn't have classes, but it had feats, spells, and new gods, which are basically subclasses for clerics. (Deity choice is closer to what a bloodline or mystery gives you than doctrines, which don't really have any mechanical equivalent in other classes.) We've gotten a fair amount of divine archetypes, and divine already has the most classes in the game. Rage of the Elements, as Michael Sayre pointed out, is not strictly a primal book. Secrets of Magic wasn't an arcane one.
But if we did have the a new book, I'd take some of those old prestige classes as archetypes. Thing like Evangelist feel more like professions for classes. I'd like to see Inquisitor made into an archetype for similar reasons, but we could still get a striker divine class separate from the name.
What I want most is what Possible Cabbage points out regarding ancestors worship, which is probably where the Shaman fits in. I've felt like there hasn't been a good way to represent Shoanti mystics in PF2 and would like that fixed.
'Broader' Clerics in terms of doctrine and feat support as I do consider especially the Cleric to be extremely limited in terms of playstyle and feat selection, especially as many feats seem to have been written and/or work better with NPC evil Clerics in mind (and/or access to versatile font). And while some playstyles may be enabled by combining the correct archetypes this is not ideal, at least from my rather 'purist' point of view.
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Wait, we had tradition based books?
I mean I can see how dark archive is occult flavored yeah, but I didn't think any of books really counted as single magic books ._.; Or is this about thematic synergy? Like how secrets of magic explorers different magic traditions in bit of academic way, dark archives has spooky feeling, so expecting rage of elements to be kind of philosophical regarding how it tells lore bits?
Well anyway, I'd be happy with the LN/N/CN(or at least LN/CN) champions. Though I think adding more "subclasses" to other classes would be fun as well. Like making monk alternate "discipline" that switched legendary unarmored for legendary unarmed. Sure it'd be powerful, but fighter with monk archetype can already get flurry of blows and master unarmored is relatively squishy.
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I would love a themed book on Animism, Ancestral worship, and non-deific religions in Golarion. They exist and yet they always feel like an after thought to the system. It feels like there is a lot of room for Champions, for a potential Shaman class, for non-divine classes to have a religious purpose not just tied to a specific diety and the anathema and abilities of that deity.
I feel like it would bring both a lot of interesting mechanics and most importantly, an opportunity to expand on some really under-represented lore in Golarion.
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Oracle could use some more feat options.
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I know it may not be practical or an optimal use of space and there's some of overstepping there in the Cleric Dedication — But! But, but, but... Hear me out: Religious followers Archetypes.
Tired of having to hunt down Lore (Your Deity) or stretch your proficiency boosts thin to have Religion trained? Want to be able to use your deity's favored weapon? Want to have unique and flavorful feats to use during combat, that could very easily be analogues to the divine fighting techniques from the first edition?
Okay, I know that maybe not everything from that list can be granted, but c'moooon! Unique archetypes to the Core Deities, and maybe a few more, would be so cool! I... Can't imagine the page count and I understand that this might be a big ask, but I think they could work great for when your character really is a big follower of a certain deity, but they're not there yet to the level of proper clerics.
Also, I think that Divine Fighting Techniques — The Feat for each potential deity that has a follower archetype could be really cool and flavorful
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I know it may not be practical or an optimal use of space and there's some of overstepping there in the Cleric Dedication — But! But, but, but... Hear me out: Religious followers Archetypes.
Tired of having to hunt down Lore (Your Deity) or stretch your proficiency boosts thin to have Religion trained? Want to be able to use your deity's favored weapon? Want to have unique and flavorful feats to use during combat, that could very easily be analogues to the divine fighting techniques from the first edition?
Okay, I know that maybe not everything from that list can be granted, but c'moooon! Unique archetypes to the Core Deities, and maybe a few more, would be so cool! I... Can't imagine the page count and I understand that this might be a big ask, but I think they could work great for when your character really is a big follower of a certain deity, but they're not there yet to the level of proper clerics.
Also, I think that Divine Fighting Techniques — The Feat for each potential deity that has a follower archetype could be really cool and flavorful
Part of the reason I'm such a pest about the Inquisitor is that not every divine/religious character works as a Champion, Cleric, or Oracle, and sometimes even taking one as a multiclass is either unfeasible or unsatisfying. I'd gladly welcome tools to make a Ranger feel more like an Erastilian servant of nature, or one of Majagua/Kazutal's great hunters, and the same for other classes.
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My wishlist would be:
1) a divine offensive class that combines warpriest and inquisitor. Given that both classes offensive abilities were around self buffing, i dont think it would be too hard to make the core chassis a wave caster with a a damage boostin mechanic and then use class feats to hone in whoch flavors you want (or if you want to mix and match); skill utility and the like for extra inquisitor flair, focus spells and combat feats for warpriest flair
2) An Acolyte archetype aimed at casters or martials who would like casting; allows access to domain spells using you base class's spell prof rather than divine DC of higher and some other magic related faith abilities. This would make it easier to make priests of dieties that have strong connections to other classes, such as desna and bards, irez and nethys to wizards, irori and monks, etc. I imagine something like cathartic mage wher it's divine DC by default, but if you have casting prof, it uses that instead
3) CN, N, and LN champion causes. This actually burned me recently when I wanted to multiclass champion of sivanah but couldn't since I'm looking at making a CN trickster; and redeemer just doesn't have the flavor I want and Desecrator is totally wrong
4) new archetypes in general, acolyte was explicit because I REALLY want something like that
5) Expansion on doctrines and/or a new doctrine for clerics
6) As always, please for the love of desna offer support for existing classes. Tbh Cleric, Champion, Oracle, Witch, and Thaumaturge all lend themselves to a divine theme, but you could also dobcool stuff with say inventor making stuff that channels divine power and and mad science in one thing (plus we have a few tech gods), alchemists who brew Elixir and craft bombs with planear energy, etc
7) a little self serving, but perhaps a non evil, preferably good diety associated with alchemy, since all I got so far is a demon lord
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2) An Acolyte archetype aimed at casters or martials who would like casting; allows access to domain spells using you base class's spell prof rather than divine DC of higher and some other magic related faith abilities. This would make it easier to make priests of dieties that have strong connections to other classes, such as desna and bards, irez and nethys to wizards, irori and monks, etc. I imagine something like cathartic mage wher it's divine DC by default, but if you have casting prof, it uses that instead.
I didn’t realize how badly I wanted this! Like you mention, it definitely helps smooth out some of the weirdness with followers of Nethys and similar gods.
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7) a little self serving, but perhaps a non evil, preferably good diety associated with alchemy, since all I got so far is a demon lord
A goblin passes the Test of the Starstone?
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I was thinking a Tian deity, but that's not a bad idea Sanity.
Book of the Dead was divine based and a big book.It was consistently described as a bestiary, had a narrow theme, and included no classes. I don't think it's really a fair comparison.
It's too bad it did not have a class, as Mediums would have been thematically and mechanically appropriate. This would have been a great chance to showcase it with Divine underpinnings instead of the PF1 occult influence. Further, between Dark Archive, Book of the Dead, and the Blood Lords AP, a lot of abilities that I'd want to see on a Medium are now in the game.
I'm not sure what would have been taken out to make room, so I'm not too disappointed, but I do see it as a missed opportunity.
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Question: how folks feel about using Thaumaturge as their Divine Striker? I know the class officially dabbles in all traditions and in practice feels like it skews occult, but nothing stops you from leaning heavier into one tradition.
VampbyDay's guide makes a compelling case for using the Thaumaturge like an Inquisitor in hunting down enemies of your church. They've already got monster Lore and Bane. They have feats to throw holy symbols around. And they can use limited divine spells with the scroll feats. At early levels they are actually better than Champions at smiting friends. And with Breached Defenses they can rock all over most undead. And the Implements can check all kinds of god boxes, from Cayden Cailean to Iomadae to Nethys...
Not trying to yuck anyone's yum for a dedicated class, but you could maybe scratch that itch in the meantime.
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If you throw out the flavor entirely and replace it, you could make a thaumaturge look like it was tryig to be an intercessor... but it's not the same.
- The flavor is very different. That's not nothing. There's people for whom the flavor of the class is half the point.
- The crunch follows the flavor. The thaumaturge is assembling their effectiveness out of lots and lots of little widgy bits. Now, you can claim that those widgy bits are in some way divine widgy bits, and give a shout-out to things like saints relics and whatnot in the past and come up with something that looks like a divine class, but it's still one iwth lots of widgy bits. It doesnt' feel like you're channelign the power of the gods. It feels like you're thi guy who happens to own a fingerbone off of each of 17 saints, and is trying to work that advantage as hard as they can.
Now, "Thaumaturge with the serial numbers filed off, in a new coat of divine-colored paint" is probably a more satisfying fit for Intercessor than "Fighter with a wizard archetype" was for magus, but it's still not the thing that people actually want.
Huh. The Investigator is the martial detective. The Thaumaturge is the occult detective. The Intercessor is the divine detective? Huh.
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We've never gotten a book built around a single tradition before, so I'm not sure how likely we're to see one going into the future.
That said, some divine things I really want to see:
-An offensive divine magical class. Somewhere between the Magus and the Warpriest. PF2 still lacks for battlemages and there's a real opening for a divinely inspired character who specializes in smiting evil (or good, or law, or chaos, or whatever). It just feels like a big hole in the game's niches right now.
... A little bit cracked, but I've had this idea floating around in my head for a pantheist Medium ever since it was mentioned somewhere that they could be Divine. Something about the idea of a character who makes an offering to Gorum or Iomedae or General Susumu to become better at fighting with a weapon, or instead invokes Nethys to improve their spellcasting ability. I dunno, I think it'd be an interesting spin on the concept of the PF1 Medium, fit into this divine space people seem to want, while also taking a look at religion on Golarion in a different way.
The Thaumaturge is the occult detective
The Thaumaturge isn't Occult.
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I want a way for newer spells to be accessible through deities. As of now, we can only hope for new deities to incidentally provide such spells. Otherwise, they fall quite a bit behind.
This can be done in several ways but personally want it to develop as rules that allow you to personalize your deity's given spells in some way. It could replace some of the default spells with another spell with obvious limitations and guidelines to keep it in theme with the deity. Limits could include spell level, traits, or a combination of both. Maybe there could be something done to incorporate deity domains, but I'm not too sure.
We've adapted the custom staff rules to simulate something similar with some success. Since SoM, our Cleric players in particular were quick to point out that they had no natural access to many of the new toys that book flaunted. Thankfully, the custom staff rules came in the same book, so we just used that to allow a deity spell switch given a similar trait that wasn't too broad.
The Thaumaturge is definitely occult. It's not technically occult spell casting (as the thaumaturge doesn't cast spells), but the magic it does fits the description of the occult tradition SoM gives to a t. The use the power of story's, beliefs, and convictions to convince the universe to aid you in your quest.The Thaumaturge is the occult detectiveThe Thaumaturge isn't Occult.
Not to mention that the class was inspired by a number of occult detectives in fiction, like Constantine and Hellboy - neither of whom I would peg as an “Inquisitor,” personally.
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The Thaumaturge is definitely occult.
The Thaumaturge is emphatically a non-tradition class that scrounges ideas from across the spectrum. It has more Arcane abilities than Occult ones, and almost as many Divine or Primal.
If you want to reflavor your thaumaturge as primarily occult, in the same way someone upthread suggests reflavoring the thaumaturge as primarily divine, you can, but it's important to point out that's not in line with the basic assumptions about the class.
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Yeah, the Thaumaturge is purposefully and deliberately not affiliated with a single magical tradition, because thematically it represents the person who borrows from every single magical tradition.
It represents John Constantine because John Constantine is someone who consorts with devils (Divine), is friends with Swamp Thing (primal), deals with Wizards like in the Books of Magic (Arcane), and generally does a lot of Occult stuff.
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We're already seeing something like this in the game. it's minor, but if you check out the deities in Knights of Lastwall you'll notice that they grant different spells than their core rulebook counterparts in some cases, usually to favor more knightly, martial characters. Sarenrae grants Ant Haul rather than Burning Hands in KoL, for example.
I'm not sure why that info isn't up on AoN. Either way it's a glimmer that shows that a deity's granted spells aren't set in stone and presumably different regions or professions can ask for different spells.
I did not know that. Very cool.
I'm not much of a Champion player, but I love the idea of getting twisted versions of the Mercy feats. So instead of Lay on Hands, it would support Touch of Corruption, focusing on causing conditions instead of removing them. It can then be easily packaged as new archetype, basically as the corrupted counterpart of Blessed One.
This was probably more appropriate for Book of the Dead, but I'd still love to see it. My friend loves evil Champions so this has been more of a recurring topic since that book was announced. Although, this has been on their wishlist since the APG. As a fervent Blessed One enjoyer, I see the appeal, and you won't see me complaining about more options that grant focus spells.
Oracle could use some more feat options.Seconded. I'd really like some more generalized flexibility with Oracle, rather than your choice of mystery locking you into a specific playstyle.
Feats won't help there. They can't with the language about being unable to mitigate the effects of your curse. You'd need a full blown archetype to remove the curse entirely and replace it with something more flexible. But at that point, you've also removed like 80% of what separates the Oracle mechanics from the divine sorcerer.
Feats won't help there. They can't with the language about being unable to mitigate the effects of your curse. You'd need a full blown archetype to remove the curse entirely and replace it with something more flexible. But at that point, you've also removed like 80% of what separates the Oracle mechanics from the divine sorcerer.
I don't think the mitigation clause is the biggest culprit that bars flexibility. Most mysteries just naturally pushes you to a certain playstyle to really benefit from its strengths, whether it be through the curses themselves, the revelation spells, or both. A Life Oracle, for example, that doesn't take advantage of Life Link might as well play a divine Sorcerer. It's just not worth it otherwise.
Unless you mean how mitigation is a keyword many GMs are unforgiving about in context of the Oracle, then yeah, I completely agree.
Either way, I think it's possible for feats to patch this lack of flexibility. Specifically, feats like Forestall Curse which allow more control on when your curse advances. Unfortunately, being established at such a high level of 14, it's unlikely we'll be getting similar feats at early levels where it matters most. In particular, before 11th level when you get your major curse.
The lack of options to halt or lower your curse during encounters is what I think truly locks playstyle flexibility. With how high impact some curses are, even at moderate curse, it's pretty rough. Sometimes you just want to cast a revelation spell without completely locking down your character's playstyle options. Even as a once per day, Forestall Curse would help these situations perfectly, but again, it comes online too late to be relevant.
That's my point though. To make an oracle not locked into their curse's playstyle, you need to not advance your curse. And with the curse double edged sword mechanics being the main thing distinguishing the Oracle from the Divine Sorcerer, there isn't a compelling reason to print options for it. (Especially now that Tempting Curses and Curse Malestrom offer class agnostic options for the theme.) You also don't need new feats for it. You can simply not use your cursebound spells. Snag Lay on Hands or another archetype focus spell, and just live with the passive benefits of your curse and improved durability.
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I like the curse being thematically related to the mystery personally. I just want more mysteries.
That's my point though. To make an oracle not locked into their curse's playstyle, you need to not advance your curse. And with the curse double edged sword mechanics being the main thing distinguishing the Oracle from the Divine Sorcerer, there isn't a compelling reason to print options for it. (Especially now that Tempting Curses and Curse Malestrom offer class agnostic options for the theme.) You also don't need new feats for it. You can simply not use your cursebound spells. Snag Lay on Hands or another archetype focus spell, and just live with the passive benefits of your curse and improved durability.
See, I think you just described how feats could help. Getting Lay on Hands as a non-cursebound spell on an Oracle is huge. Just for one feat (Blessed One), you get access to a way to not advance your curse while simultaneously take advantage of your focus pool. For me, that curse management fixed mysteries that enjoy their moderate curse but have situational major curses. I love how it allows mysteries like Battle and Life to play with their curse at their own pace.
The Blessed One dedication is basically an honorary Oracle feat for me, but I still wish the class had more curse management feats of its own. We have Forestall Curse and Scapegoat Parallel Self, but neither are practical or accessible.
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With Dark Archive out, Oracles have a new fun venue for non-cursebound spells. Psychic Dedication can give you stuff like Amped Message or Amped Guidance.
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With Dark Archive out, Oracles have a new fun venue for non-cursebound spells. Psychic Dedication can give you stuff like Amped Message or Amped Guidance.
Yeah, it’s pretty great as another one feat investment, and it even gives you several options. Amped Guidance stands out as it fills a reaction slot Oracles typically don’t use.
If they can't adjust oracles then I'd be really excited for something like a Magus/Oracle hybrid class, spontaneous bounded divine casting with decent melee.
I've been trying to think what that would look like because the divine spell list is kind of crappy for spell strike options, so you'd need a new mechanic. Best idea I've come up with closer to the PF1 Warpriest: quickened self buff spells. But if you're just using your 4 slots a day to cast heroism on yourself I'm not sure why you wouldn't just play a fighter.
A prepared divine wave caster might be a better direction, as you could use those top level slots to heal and counteract things as needed.
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Speaking of the divine list, more spells that are true neutral deity friendly moving forward would be appreciated. Some SoM spells, like Deity's Strike and Divine Armageddon, do this already. Sure, both spells are less powerful when used with a true neutral deity, but it was nice they worked at all unlike some of the CRB divine spells.