So i came upon the possession feats: possess creatue, item and location.
They all require a minimum cha score. And being an evil outsider with x hd.
Now i am not sure character level = hd.
If it is. Does that mean even native outsiders can take this feat. Like tieflings ana aasimars who are evil.
Also what about companions and eidolins that can, with the right build, be outsiders?
Or the rare classes that allow to pick feats for familiars and gain an outsider improved familiar?
on ferther inspection since every class has a line saying :
'hit die :1dX'
and some refer to class abilities using their class levels as hit dice (such as barbarian's rage "The increase to Constitution grants the barbarian 2 hit points per Hit Dice..") seem to indicate that class levels can count as HD. while i'm not sure if getting possess creature is worth while, the number of shenanigans one can pull out with possess location and possess object is outstanding.
- for example, just by having a feather and the feat possess object one can make sure his party will always have the right feather token (with the Enhance power, cost 9pp. good thing the minimum to get the feat is at 9 hd), but that is on the small scale of what can be done, potions\ wands on moment's notice? other magical items as needed 1/day? (with a cap of 1,000 gp worth per hd)
Native outsiders are not considered Evil Outsiders even if they have an evil alignment. An Evil Outsider is an outsider with the evil subtype. While it is rare you can actually have a good alignment and still be an Evil Outsider.
Evil Subtype: This subtype is usually applied to outsiders native to the evil-aligned outer planes. Evil outsiders are also called fiends. Most creatures that have this subtype also have evil alignments; however, if their alignments change, they still retain the subtype. Any effect that depends on alignment affects a creature with this subtype as if the creature has an evil alignment, no matter what its alignment actually is. The creature also suffers effects according to its actual alignment. A creature with the evil subtype overcomes damage reduction as if its natural weapons and any weapons it wields are evil-aligned (see Damage Reduction).
So a Tiefling or Aasimar are not considered Evil Outsiders and as such cannot take possession feats. They also do not take double damage from the first attack of a paladins smite evil.
no. im sorry.
been an outsider and being evil is not always the same as being an outsider with the evil subtype.
not all evil outsiders have the evil subtype (that require them to be of a specific plane\s) for example
Ikelos, Urdefhan, Onyx Scourge, Sceaduinar and Sishkanset are evil and outsiders but do not have the evil outsider subtype.
the feat writer might MEANT to ask for evil subtype. but that is not what is written.
'evil outsider' is not the same as 'outsider (evil)'
Look up the Paladin's smite evil you called out. It say Specificly: "is an outsider with the evil subtype, an evil-aligned dragon, or an undead creature" not just evil outsider.
On the other hand the feat call it out to be "any evil outsider"
Evil Subtype: This subtype is usually applied to outsiders native to the evil-aligned outer planes. Evil outsiders are also called fiends. Most creatures that have this subtype also have evil alignments; however, if their alignments change, they still retain the subtype. Any effect that depends on alignment affects a creature with this subtype as if the creature has an evil alignment, no matter what its alignment actually is. The creature also suffers effects according to its actual alignment. A creature with the evil subtype overcomes damage reduction as if its natural weapons and any weapons it wields are evil-aligned (see Damage Reduction).
Benefit: Once per day, as a full-round action, a fiend can discorporate into a malign presence and target a creature within 15 feet. The creature targeted must succeed at a Will save equal to 10 + half the fiend's Hit Dice + the fiend's Charisma modifier or be possessed (see below). Targets under the effects of protection from evil, or related spells, gain a bonus to this save. Should a target succeed at its Will save, the fiend is forced back into its natural form and is stunned for 1 round.
The text of the Evil subtype specifically states that Evil Outsiders are called fiends. The text of the feat also specifies uses fiend in multiple places. That is pretty clear who can use the feat.
Not all outsiders that have an evil alignment are evil outsiders. Evil outsider is a specific type of outsider just like native or extraplanar. I game terms there is a difference between an evil outsider and an outsider who is evil. Those that you list all lack the evil descriptor so are by definition not evil outsiders. One of them is specifically a native outsider.
the fiend part is reasonable.
i can't agree with the later, there are N outsiders, LG\NG\CG\LE\CE outsiders etc. that is not the same as outsider(evil) by definition.
and you really don't have any proof for native outsider to not count as evil outsiders if they are evil (again evil outsider. not outsider(evil).
i can accept that a fiend must have be evil subtype beside being an outsider, that has definition.
but while fiend must be an outsider with the evil subtype. a simple evil outsider can be any outsider which is also evil. (again this feat call for fiends so that is that)
Outsider (evil) is a subtype, not an alignment feature. You can be a succubus and be an evil outsider while not being actually evil, but you are still a being made of evil quintessence. Meanwhile, you can't be a evil subtype Rakshasa because it native subtypes (at least the ones made from the material plane) doesn't have any alignment quintessence.
Exectly.
hence my seperation between an 'evil outsider' which is merely an outdider who is evil and 'outsider(evil)' aka 'fiend' which is an outsider with the sub type of evil.
And as i said if the feat didn't mention fiends specificly, mearly saying evil outsider would have been a wider option.
Also why the smite evil seperate and say outsider with evil subtype and evil aligned dragons and not just say evil outsiders and dragons.
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Possess Creature (Monster)
Source Pathfinder #28: The Infernal Syndrome pg. 57
Rare among common fiends, stand out in power above others of their kind.
...
To represent this, fiends who increase in power beyond the common representative of their kind gain access to the Possess Creature, Posses location and Posses Object feat ...
It is an article about fiends and the powers are for fiends, it uses the term in the correct meaning, so as a basis the feats are intended for outsiders with the evil subtype.
That notwithstanding, at p. 56, the same article, explicitly says that the GM can modify the feats for the use by other extraplanar creatures (even good ones), undead, things from other space, and so on.
So:
- without modifications only Outsider (Evil) can take it;
- with modification by the GM, Extraplanar outsiders and other stuff can take it.
Seeing how an eidolon works, I wouldn't modify it for one, nor for a native outsider. Maybe for a familiar, but familiars don't gain HD, so reaching 8 or more HD is difficult.
familiar doesn't עet hd beside it's starting HD, but got this:
"Hit Dice: For the purpose of effects related to number of Hit Dice, use the master's character level or the familiar's normal HD total, whichever is higher."
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familiar doesn't עet hd beside it's starting HD, but got this:
"Hit Dice: For the purpose of effects related to number of Hit Dice, use the master's character level or the familiar's normal HD total, whichever is higher."
Familiars
A familiar is an animal chosen by a spellcaster to aid him in his study of magic. It retains the appearance, Hit Dice, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, skills, and feats of the normal animal it once was, but is now a magical beast for the purpose of effects that depend on its type.
Having x HD is not an "effect", it is a statistic.
Taking a feat is not an effect, so counting the master HD as the familiar HD for effects does nothing for feat prerequisites.
Also, familiars don't learn feats over their base form, so unless you somehow got a devil that has the feat already to be your familiar, it wouldn't happen.
Also, familiars don't learn feats over their base form, so unless you somehow got a devil that has the feat already to be your familiar, it wouldn't happen.
please don't respond with an argumentative post if you didn't even bother reading the first post till the end.
as i originally wrote: " ..Or the rare classes that allow to pick feats for familiars..."
as far as i'm aware of there are 2 very specific archtypes that allow to pick up feats for familiars to gain.(beside familiar archtypes that straight out give specific feats, like valet).
(#1 under Transfer Feats (Ex)) & #2 under Lost Talents (Ex))
Unchained eidolons have alignment subtypes, so it would seem that RAW would allow one to take these feats. Flavor and RAI arguments are another issue, as always.