Guns & Gears describes Alkenstar and lets you play characters that thematically fit (Gunslinger, Inventor), and then Book of the Dead is written in parts by Geb himself and offers undead PC options - neatly covering 2/4 nations in the Impossible Lands. I think that’s the AP and Lost Omens book to look out for.Something else to consider. The Absalom sourcebook was supposed to come out in tandem with Agents of Edgewatch, and the APG (which introduced two classes that are thematically great with AoE) was released in tandem. The Mwangi Expanse sourcebook came out just before Strength of Thousands, and Secrets of Magic was supposed to come out in tandem with it. There's a pattern starting to emerge here, is what I'm saying. Throw in the Kineticist's popularity, and I think you're right about the playtest. And if you're right about that, then chances are good that next summer will make you very happy.So... you think Book of the Dead is going to come out alongside an undead-themed adventure path?
Based on what we know it seems likely that Book of the Dead will release alongside Quest for the Frozen Flame. They're both due out in Q1 of '22. Theoretically, if it comes out in March and the unknown AP after QfFF should start in April so maybe that will match up. What AP or other material is GnG synching up with though? What Core or Lost Omens book was Fist of the Ruby Phoenix matched up to? I don't think there's really a pattern here. Looks like we'll find out at GenCon.
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Like I said, it's a flavour thing. The pure force of will vs magic.
Which in pathfinder is a non-distinction. "Pure force of will" producing supernatural effects is magic.
Calling on the aid of your deity is magic.
Calling on the spirits of the forest is magic.
Knowing advanced formula for the underpinning of reality to blast someone with a fireball is magic.
Your hangup, from what I'm reading, is that Psychic/Psionic/Occult is not-magic, which isn't true in Pathfinder, setting or mechanics wise.
While I think the whole psionics and magic thing is derailing this thread, psychics have kind of always been in Golarion. In terms of magic and psionics/psychics in the same setting (other than Golarion), Marvel has Dr Strange, Scarlet Witch and Professor X in the same setting without issue. Dark Sun was an incredible setting and had both magic and psionics together. I think Spelljammer did too and the earlier editions of Forgetton Realms. Also Eberron which in my opinion is the closest DnD setting to Golarion successfully mixed the two without issue.
I think Golarion could do it easily enough, the psionics mechanics may not be the same as PF1, 3.x editions but the flavour is cool and can easily be incorporated.
I speak as someone who likes psionics and would rather they worked more as levelled up 'powers' with feats to improve themes and less like spells (memorized effects). Not that a lot of how that is handled isn't flavour or that you couldn't somewhat flavour a caster that way.
What I want to see is a couple of non-caster classes that really push what focus spells can do without it being a martial class. So maybe something like a non-martial monk.
Thinking about it Kineticist and Shifter could be done off the same base class, effectively one is just 3.x's psychometabolism (shifter) and the other is just psycho-kinetism. Mentalist could be done similarly for Telepaths but all could use be done using the same model if they nail a good way to do kineticist powers.
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Here's a hint. We won't have two playlists going on simultaneously.
I can't believe no one's replied to this yet! Thank you Aaron for the hint! So gencon announcement sounds likely to meeee
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Thinking about it Kineticist and Shifter could be done off the same base class, effectively one is just 3.x's psychometabolism (shifter) and the other is just psycho-kinetism. Mentalist could be done similarly for Telepaths but all could use be done using the same model if they nail a good way to do kineticist powers.
I think THAT would be hitting the “that’s an awful lot for a single class” limit, but we’ll see.
If kineticists partially absorbed with an elemental spirit and that fueled their powers, allowing them elemental abilities and bodies, then perhaps. The Elemental Host 3pp class attempts that, and I certainly like it.
I feel like that would likely be short changing both classes though.
Oh, and just to be annoying; I would still prefer Arcane flavor kineticists. The mind + matter that Arcane wound up with fits the theme better than Mind + Spirit of 2e occult.
I would not have said that in PF1, it is wholly down to how the traditions wound up in PF2.
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I think you missed where I said I didn't have a problem with magic. If it's flavoured as magic I'm fine. Like I have a problem with the Dreamscarred Press Psionics moreso than the Occult classes.
Not particularly happy about the later but it's close enough I may not entirely ban it from my table.
I didn't miss anything, you're trying to treat Occult and Psychic magic as... not magic. They're magic. Full stop. Occult isn't "close" to magic. It is full on magic.
It's not Magic (Arcane and Divine) and Occult. It's Magic (Arcane, Divine, Primal, Occult).
Also Dreamscarred Press is not Paizo and Paizo does not use their products in their setting.
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Here's a hint. We won't have two playlists going on simultaneously.
...now to drive myself crazy wondering if "playlist" was actually a typo or if its the key to the hint.
If you meant Playtest, that means it won't happen until after September 24th, since that's when the Starfinder Evolutionist playtest will end. That playtest was announced on the 19th, and begins on the 2nd, so if Paizo did the two playtests back to back, it'd have to be after it ends on the 24th... coincidentally gencon is that week. Usually the next summer book is a gencon announcement, and Sayre even jumped into a recent thread to emphasize that gencon is THE tabletop con.
So you guys will be holding off for gencon's postponed date to make the announcement, is my guess, with the announcement hitting right at the tail end of gencon and right before the evolutionist ends a few days later.
Hell, lets put the announcement on September 19th (the last day of gencon), and the actual playtest on October 2nd to mirror the evolutionist playtest timing.
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Here's a hint. We won't have two playlists going on simultaneously....now to drive myself crazy wondering if "playlist" was actually a typo or if its the key to the hint.
If you meant Playtest, that means it won't happen until after September 24th, since that's when the Starfinder Evolutionist playtest will end. That playtest was announced on the 19th, and begins on the 2nd, so if Paizo did the two playtests back to back, it'd have to be after it ends on the 24th... coincidentally gencon is that week. Usually the next summer book is a gencon announcement, and Sayre even jumped into a recent thread to emphasize that gencon is THE tabletop con.
So you guys will be holding off for gencon's postponed date to make the announcement, is my guess, with the announcement hitting right at the tail end of gencon and right before the evolutionist ends a few days later.
Hell, lets put the announcement on September 19th (the last day of gencon), and the actual playtest on October 2nd to mirror the evolutionist playtest timing.
Which is what I predicted way back on the 5th post of this thread.
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Here's a hint. We won't have two playlists going on simultaneously....now to drive myself crazy wondering if "playlist" was actually a typo or if its the key to the hint.
If you meant Playtest, that means it won't happen until after September 24th, since that's when the Starfinder Evolutionist playtest will end. That playtest was announced on the 19th, and begins on the 2nd, so if Paizo did the two playtests back to back, it'd have to be after it ends on the 24th... coincidentally gencon is that week. Usually the next summer book is a gencon announcement, and Sayre even jumped into a recent thread to emphasize that gencon is THE tabletop con.
So you guys will be holding off for gencon's postponed date to make the announcement, is my guess, with the announcement hitting right at the tail end of gencon and right before the evolutionist ends a few days later.
Hell, lets put the announcement on September 19th (the last day of gencon), and the actual playtest on October 2nd to mirror the evolutionist playtest timing.
But if he meant playlist, we'll have to find his Spotify to know more.
Which is what I predicted way back on the 5th post of this thread.Here's a hint. We won't have two playlists going on simultaneously....now to drive myself crazy wondering if "playlist" was actually a typo or if its the key to the hint.
If you meant Playtest, that means it won't happen until after September 24th, since that's when the Starfinder Evolutionist playtest will end. That playtest was announced on the 19th, and begins on the 2nd, so if Paizo did the two playtests back to back, it'd have to be after it ends on the 24th... coincidentally gencon is that week. Usually the next summer book is a gencon announcement, and Sayre even jumped into a recent thread to emphasize that gencon is THE tabletop con.
So you guys will be holding off for gencon's postponed date to make the announcement, is my guess, with the announcement hitting right at the tail end of gencon and right before the evolutionist ends a few days later.
Hell, lets put the announcement on September 19th (the last day of gencon), and the actual playtest on October 2nd to mirror the evolutionist playtest timing.
Great minds think alike? ^_^
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Spooky month being the playtest would be cool for Occultist introduction
Here's a hint. We won't have two playlists going on simultaneously....now to drive myself crazy wondering if "playlist" was actually a typo or if its the key to the hint.
Perhaps it refers to a list of classes being playtested for a particular book. Like the Firearms, Inventor and Gunslinger playtests were all conducted at the same time, but the batch was part of the same playlist for the release of Guns and Gears, and not at the same time as the playlist for Secrets of Magic consisting of Summoner and Magus.
But Free RPG day comes before
It would be for Book of the dead or something?
I think if a new playtest is happening, we can potentially expect a new book of classes being announced in either September or August with a playtest start in October.
Could be totally off, but that's my guess.
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But Free RPG day comes before
It would be for Book of the dead or something?
Free RPG Day has confirmed to be a Strength of Thousands tie-in, I believe, unless you’re referring to next year.
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I wonder if they can roll up psychic, mesmerist, and occultist and strain it all into a weird general eldritch class
I could see a dedicated Occult full caster with flavor/subclass options for Psychic, Mesmerist, and some weirder options besides, while the Occultist/Antiquarian is there with all of their weird haunted relics.
Well if occultist was the main and they each had a bonded relic that facilitated each sub class (mesmerist a metronome, psychic a crystal ball, etc) that might work
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Well if occultist was the main and they each had a bonded relic that facilitated each sub class (mesmerist a metronome, psychic a crystal ball, etc) that might work
I can imagine many players would find this deeply stifling, as it limits character options so much.
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Free RPG Day has (been) confirmed to be a Strength of Thousands tie-in, I believe(,) unless you’re referring to next year.Strength of Thousands book 5 mentioning StarFinder's setting and Q4FF was made by StarFinder's staff.
Anything StarFinder related then? But not Technomancer...?
Pathfinder's solar system well predates Starfinder existing; Distant Worlds detailed every single planet in pretty considerable detail back in 2012, while the fourth volume of Reign of Winter was set on Triaxus and released in 2013. The Doorway to the Red Star (the portal to Akiton the Strength of Thousands volume is named for) was first mentioned back in 2008, if the wiki can be believed.
Space stuff =/= Starfinder, and I don't expect you'll ever see a higher-tech full Class for 2e than those coming in Guns & Gears.
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I'm really looking forward to more lore on the Door to the Red Star. I know it's a pipedream but Contemplatives as a playable ancestry would be just so very grand.
This might be cowardice, but I'd honestly rather see a writeup of the Hyrki humans that call Akiton home; it would be tough to get a levitating brain from another planet to fit as a PC in most campaigns, but a red-skinned human who's ultimately just from a /very/ distant country would be a lot of fun.
I do have question over the "fantasy of Kineticist". Because where does this even come from? Specifically the burning the HP to boost. Is that from somewhere or was it just part of the 1E rules.It’s from horror versions of psionics, like in Carrie or Scanners. Burning yourself up to empower your psychic abilities is a pretty common trope. Even the 3.- wilder had that.
I think while a lot of *players* think Avatar, the writing was initially something like Legion or one of the others I mentioned. Though certainly there are archetypes and options that leaned very hard into Avatar, as that was too big to ignore.
This would explain a lot as I am utterly unfamiliar with those :-)
Thanks
Are they called Kineticists anywhere out of interest? Gathered that was a unique paizo name ...
1). You are right of course. But how well received would alternative like Drained or something akin to Life Oracle's curse be among the fans? I have a slight hunch
2). This is new to me having GM'd one for 13 levels in 1E. They lost HP certainly. But somehow nearly always seemed to end up with the most HP even after all this unless you got really cavalier with Burn which most people did not.
Overflow boosted Con to offset the HP loss anyway - unless we played that wrong...
3). I don't see how this is something I "got wrong". I don't recall saying they weren't the first?
You make a good point on scaling cantrips being inspired by the blast. But surely you know what the reaction of the fans is when you try to suggest the kinetic blast be like scaling cantrips. I do - because I have. It is met pretty much with fury. The implication...
1) Yes burn has always been a debatable part. But it has always been crucial to it. And like Animated Paper said, it could easily be made into a level 1 feat for people who want it.
2) You don't say the class whose main attribute was Con easily had the most HP? Its almost as if people maxed out Con to get the most damage, DC, and burn. Also yeah people didnt use too much burn. But thats the point, the class presents you the tools. But you as the player choose how much is enough, and every player picks differently.
3) Kineticist Blast are the inspiration for Scalling cantrips. But that does not mean they should be the same. Kinetic Blasts have always been stronger than cantrips and comparable to martials in damage.
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...The fact you had to ask what is the fantasy...
* Carrie
* Elfen Lied
* Magneto
* The human torch
* Iceman
* Elsa
* Gaara
* Ghost Rider
* Swamp thing
* Wind Dancer
* W.I.T.C.H
Etc.Kineticist honestly covers so many series, heroes, magic systems, etc. Its easier to find a character that connect to Kineticists than one that connects to Vancian casting.
You misunderstood (or I badly wrote) what I meant by point 2. You were suggesting that overflow wasn’t really a buff because of con damage - but overflow boosted con which largely offset burn. Players were discouraged from spending more than it was to get the offset overflow granted you by the design. This would almost certainly change
Thanks for the examples. Really wouldn’t have pegged magneto or ghost rider in there.
But I wouldn’t consider many of those to be con focused characters who used burn and overload. What you are describing is at will casters not using vancian system (which is unique to d20 based products).
My example is from a urban fantasy book series called Hellequin chronicles where the “sorcerers” are attuned to elements - usually two and eventually with power those can fuse and then add in “matter” and “mind” and things like that. But they can definitely overload themselves. Except in this they are then taken over by a “nightmare” inside their head and usually can’t come back from it easily
Now to figure out if "gunslinger" and "inventor" was two playtests, or one "guns and Gears" playtest...Since the question was more about when we would get the playtest announcement, I think it is safe to assume that Aaron means it will happen after the starfinder playtest.
When is that running? I kind of tune out starfinder
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Well if occultist was the main and they each had a bonded relic that facilitated each sub class (mesmerist a metronome, psychic a crystal ball, etc) that might workI can imagine many players would find this deeply stifling, as it limits character options so much.
Sorry I should have clarified but was on mobile.
For Mesmerist my thought was they could have some kind of bonded item that draws attention to itself. Whether that be a coin on a string, a swirling pendant, a metronome, or some shiny stone/jewelry that evokes their magic by others looking at it.
With the Psychic, similar bonded item in tea leaves bowl, crystal ball, helmet, goggles, etc. that facilitates their ability to "see things" that only a psychic could see.
They both get access to spooky scary magic, but their main "bonded object discipline", if you will, helps facilitate the types of magical powers they evoke the strongest.
Almost like Wizard schools but not in a sense, where the bonded object disciple is the vessel by which you evoke your powers.
Clear as mud? :P
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I do have question over the "fantasy of Kineticist". Because where does this even come from? Specifically the burning the HP to boost. Is that from somewhere or was it just part of the 1E rules.It’s from horror versions of psionics, like in Carrie or Scanners. Burning yourself up to empower your psychic abilities is a pretty common trope. Even the 3.- wilder had that.
I think while a lot of *players* think Avatar, the writing was initially something like Legion or one of the others I mentioned. Though certainly there are archetypes and options that leaned very hard into Avatar, as that was too big to ignore.
This would explain a lot as I am utterly unfamiliar with those :-)
Thanks
Are they called Kineticists anywhere out of interest? Gathered that was a unique paizo name ...
Uh…no. That is really, truly, absolutely not unique to Paizo. Pyrokinesis, Hydrokinesis, Cryokinesis, Telekinesis, Aerokinesis, and so on are the proper terms for psychic or magical manipulation of energy and matter, in usage since the 19th century when occultism was really having a boom. Combining them all into a single class for clarity of mechanics has been done before as well. I’m not sure if anyone has called the resulting combination a Kineticist, but if you think of the class name as “ ‘kineticist” instead, as in a contraction of the larger terms, it might be more obvious.
But I wouldn’t consider many of those to be con focused characters who used burn and overload.
This specific combination of elements might be unique to Paizo, however. Individually, all draw from the same well of late 19th/early 20th century occultism that the entire rest of OA draws from, but I can’t think of an example of all of them put together. Which is why for me, it would be interesting but not necessary for this to be retained in 2e. It’s the not slot casting on a caster chassis I’m after, not necessarily burn or con or even elemental themed abilities.
Which is what I predicted way back on the 5th post of this thread.
Hell, lets put the announcement on September 19th (the last day of gencon), and the actual playtest on October 2nd to mirror the evolutionist playtest timing.
I strongly concur with this logic. I was hoping there would a third PF playtest tbh, maybe 2 1 class tests and 1 2 class test, starting with Paizocon (and giving a break for holidays and con prep in between playtests) but alas I was wrong.
Maybe next year!
Which is what I predicted way back on the 5th post of this thread.
Hell, lets put the announcement on September 19th (the last day of gencon), and the actual playtest on October 2nd to mirror the evolutionist playtest timing.I strongly concur with this logic. I was hoping there would a third PF playtest tbh, maybe 2 1 class tests and 1 2 class test, starting with Paizocon (and giving a break for holidays and con prep in between playtests) but alas I was wrong.
Maybe next year!
I'm afraid this might turn out to be unlikely; at least, 4 classes being playtested in a year. I forget if it was stated on one of the streams or if I read it on one of the Discord Q&As during PaizoCon, but, one of the developers/designers said that Paizo does not want to be developing/playtesting as many 2E classes in such a short timeframe as what they have done between the ones for the APG (4) and then the next year with the Magus & Summoner followed soon after with the Gunslinger & Inventor in the same year. Apparently, that many in such a short time frame is quite a strain on the developers with everything else they have to work on. Furthermore, they prioritized the playtests they had up to this point because 2E was still young and classes like the Magus, Summoner, and Gunslinger were in such high demand from the playerbase while also fitting strongly with the themes of the major rulebooks they wanted to work on for the development of the game line as a whole.
This leads me to believe we will never get more than 3 2E classes playtested in a single year again; more likely no more than 2 at a time within any given 6 month timespan, if not a year, is my supposition. Now that the 2E system is a little older and they have some of the most highly demanded classes are out they can focus on development of some newer, unusual, and more experimental products that can expand the game in new ways and bring back older edition stuff in a more even-measured pace without being in such a brake-neck rush.
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i hope they focus on expanding existing classes and additional content instead of new classes, I love new class feats and archetypes
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This leads me to believe we will never get more than 3 2E classes playtested in a single year again; more likely no more than 2 at a time within any given 6 month timespan, if not a year, is my supposition. Now that the 2E system is a little older and they have some of the most highly demanded classes are out they can focus on development of some newer, unusual, and more experimental products that can expand the game in new ways and bring back older edition stuff in a more even-measured pace without being in such a brake-neck rush.
Which would make 3 playtests of 1 class each even more tempting in that case. Or a system, like the 2e Mythic or Mass combat; give a system enough complexity and I could see it being worth playtesting even without a class.
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As far as Occult casters go, and returning again to the NPCs in Ruby Phoenix, the Harrower on page 35 in book 2 leaps out. I know many of us would like to see that, and it would be the first class that was solidly Golarian in nature.I loved harrower, and the harrow book is still one of my favorite splatbooks from 1e (the alchemy one is still #1). I never got to play the class, but I was full on prepared to buy the deck and learn how to fortune tell with ut because I liked the flavor that much.
Idk if I'd want it being occult only though I'd rather is be an archetype for casters, so that, say, my desna cleric could be a harrower alongside the enigma bard peering into to future with their strange powers, or the varisian divination wizard who's deck is their arcane bond, etc
You're missing a lot of opportunity for cool things if the Harrower is an archetype you can toss onto any caster imo. If you're a wizard/harrower you're a wizard who gets minor random bonuses, if you're a harrower then you live and die by that card draw. I'd really love to see the Harrower as essentially a full-class version of the concept introduced by the Ancestors Oracle.
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Stances with Kineticists seems like it could open up quite a lot of options.
You could have some basic stances per element that would give a decent repeatable elemental attacks, with certain reasonable restrictions on the Kineticists to keep in the stance.
Something the Kineticist stances might offer outside normal stances would be a way to power them up using a focus spell/point. This would boost your damage or give you a useful damage rider or such for your attacks.
They could also have Focus Cantrips which might be tied to given stances or elements, and you can generally only cast the cantrip while in a the given stance or element. Some exceptions might exist and instead be limited that you can't be in a stance other than 'such and such element'. If for instance there was a 'feather fall equivalent' cantrip reaction one.
If you power up your Stance via a focus spell, the stance gets its bonus 'rider' for the entire time you maintain the stance, not just a single round. Perhaps it might even allow you to change stances if both stances share the same element tag.
So if you are fighting a Kineticist you try to force them to break out of their stance, after they have powered it up... or ideally force them to be unable to enter/maintain their stance during the whole encounter. But at lest if you drop them out of their stance, they lose the rider, and would have to repower it up.
Perhaps, Burn might be a mechanic allowing a kineticist to spend an action to empower their stance without having to spend a focus point on it, but at the cost of some damage or getting a burn condition starting at the end of their turn that counts as if a temporary drained condition which goes away only after refocusing activity later.
They might have a feat that counts for prerequisites and abilities as if they took/had the Primal Sorcerer multiclass feat to get some regular cantrip slots, and can use it to progress in other sorcerer multiclass feats, but does pick up the limitation of not being able to take another archetype. [and this wouldn't be allowed to stack with a normal sorcerer multi-class dedication as it otherwise counts as it, but if they want, rather than take the class feat version, they could take the actual multi-class sorcerer dedication to pick up a non-primal sorcerer multiclass. However it would have the typical limitation on taking/completing new archetypes.] Of course, thinking back, I guess others take on them may be Occult, but at least my initial feel for them would make them primal. Perhaps the different elements might be tied to either Primal or Occult traditions.
So rather than being slot casters, they would be being they would manifest their abilities, like lighting a fuse, and trigger themed abilities round after round. But if they interrupt it with something outside the scope, getting re-started takes more effort or they aren't at full power.
Actually, thinking about it, I tend to think of kineticists as being rather primal, but image warlocks being similar in play style, but could imagine warlocks being tied to a more Occult power source and abilities.
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On the more general topic, it would be nice to see some playtest that aren't just new classes, as someone mentioned. Playtests of new subsystems. Someone suggested mass combat, but I believe a portion of that is probably included in the Kingmaker rewrite, and if I understand, those base rules are probably already written.
I think Mythic is a mix of two elements Style (basically people whom are more likely to spectacular, even early in their career) including an opening of their power ceiling a bit. Additionally, it involves taking challenges and character power above 20th level.
Unless they decide to re-write Wrath of the Righteous, I'm not suspecting we will see Mythic at the top of their list of topics to write the rules for. It seems like it caught a lot of bad attention for being prone to being OP and hard to balance out. I'm not exactly sure how popular Wrath of the Righteous was in their list of APs, but it apparently had enough interest to catch the attention of Owlcat for doing their second computer game, so I suppose it might not be impossible.
Something we might get to see in playtests might include things like new Class Archetypes or new class paths for already established classes. Since they wouldn't be an Entire class they probably would not be as much page count or focus, so we might be able to see a few of them in a playtest, and use less resources than trying to do multiple full classes.
So if Inquisitor became a Methodology of an Investigator, or a Doctrine for a cleric, or similar implementation, I think that would require less Developer resources to produce and track. Not saying Inquisitor shouldn't be its own class, but it would be nice to see some of the established classes expanded.
like someone else said upthread I'd be fine with just new classes. Inventor is solid and if they're inspired by something I'd take that over kineticist or psychic, regardless of how much I want them.
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i hope they focus on expanding existing classes and additional content instead of new classes, I love new class feats and archetypes
I see no reason why they can't do both. They did that for 1e.
I would think it's hard to gage which is better, bringing back old classes or making new ones. On the one hand, bringing back old classes will make the transition of 1e players to 2e a little easier, some people are very tied to certain classes. On the other hand, bringing totally new and fun classes has its own perks, working perfectly with the system and drawing attention of its own.
As has been echoed on these boards and other forums, I think kineticist, occultist, Inquisitor and shifter should be ported. I think after that, a book of class archetypes giving things like brawler, hunter, shaman, skald, ninja, etc. As much as I love the inventor, getting the bulk of old 1e favorites to the new system would be nice to get out of the way.