Mounted Combat Charge, w / Full Attack, with Lance.

[RoseyNZ]

Hi Fellow Pathfinders! GMs, Players, Everyone else who's here.

I realize there are lots of other threads, but I can't find the exact same scenario.

[TL;DR] - Mounted Ranger wants to do 3 charge attacks in 1 round.

I have a player, he's pretty good, generally, but likes to power game in a specific way. He likes to pick a theme and plow headlong into it. So I'm going to give a breakdown of his main character points and my concerns and then hopefully, someone will post a link, or a quote, or something that will put this to bed.

Character: Level 15 Gnome, Ranger, Cat Companion, Always mounted, strapped in, +4 Holy Keen Called Lance, +3 Rhino Hide.

Important Feats: Spirited Charge (3x Lance Damage on Charge), Mounted Skirmisher (if Mount moves, you can still take a Full Attack Action), Hammer The Gap (During a Full Attack Action, extra damage per attack)

Ranger starts combat with a charge, with mounted skirmisher, he's claiming he can charge on his mount, then take a full attack action, which is currently 3 attacks, and at 3x damage on lance when charging. It's possible to do 18Dmg x3 for charge (54), +18 dmg for the Rhino hide (3d6), 72 Damage, x3 attacks = 216 dmg, then Hammer the gap could add 3 points, assuming they all hit. So in a single round, he could do a 218points. It's rough maths, but that's single shotting a lot of big bads.

Now, I'm a pretty chill GM, I like my players take on their characters, and I generally say "it's on you to know what your characters can & can't do, but there may be times that I'll question it." which is what happened last night. I failed to learn proper Charge combat rules, which, in every part of the "charge" & "mounted charge" rules, indicates that at the end of the charge, the character can attack once. EXCEPT! Mounted Skirmisher, if your mount moves more than 5ft, you can take a Full Attack Action.

His interpretation - Charging is moving, there for after the mount charges, he can take a full attack action, of 3 attacks using charge damage, x3 Lance attacks, 3 Attacks. ((1d8+10)x3, +3d6)x3 attacks)

My Interpretation - Charging is a full round attack, after the charge, he can either: take a full attack action, 3 attacks, at normal lance damage, 1d8+10, or he can take 1 attack as a charge (1d8+10)x3, +3d6.

He has ride-by, which means he can do several charges over the combat, but he feels that theres no point taking hammer the gap, instead taking vital strike instead. Of which I agree, taking a single strike, compounding that damage on a single strike.

Now, being the "good guy gm" I feel bad that what his interpretation of it is, conflicts with mine, but being able to do ~200 damage in a single charge seems OP, when the likes of the Huge Frozen Worm they fought last night, the CR17 Wendigo they'll fight next week, and the undead ghosts that they'll end up fighting, all have sub 200 hps.

The Rest of the Party is a Wizard, Witch, Paladin & Barbarian, so their damage output is quite substantial, Far from glass canons though. I'm happy to increase the difficulty of some encounters, but if a Ranger can kill a huge entity in 1 round, why would anyone else need to be there?

[Quixote]

So what I can see after looking around a bit is:

1. Mounted skirmisher specifically says that your mount can only move their speed or less for you to get a full attack. Which doesn't specifically prohibit charging, but it definitely puts a limit on things.

2. The bonus damage from a lance and from Spirited Charge applies to first attack you make on the charge, not all of them.

So, upon charging, he should get one attack at triple damage plus rhino hide and two more at normal damage.

Also, just to point out: Hammer the Gap is...not a good feat, at all. And furthermore, calculating the max possible damage is seldom useful in and of itself. I'd use a DPS calculator to get a feel for how much of a threat a given source is.

And one last thing: if you play the wedigo right, it is just absolutely brutal.

[avr]

Mounted skirmisher is a move + full attack, but not a charge + full attack. For the latter you need pounce - there's several ways. Mounted skirmisher just doesn't happen to be one of them.

If they do get pounce then the triple damage works on the first attack only. FAQ.

[Lelomenia]

You were correct, Lance doesn’t work with a Mounted Skirmisher full attack.

And also as above, by FAQ lance only deals increased damage on the first attack of a full attack at the end of a charge (which can be achieved via Pounce, but not Mounted Skirmisher).

Also, Rhino Hide damage isn’t doubled/tripled by lance charge nor by criticals.

That said, at that level with reasonable Str and Power Attack, he should be around 34ish damage before extra dice, so over 100 on the first attack would be expected.

[RoseyNZ]

Thanks for the replies.

I've decided that 1 charge attack + additional normal attacks works well with the theme, but doesn't break the game as such.

I know that Rhino hide is precision damage, which was a rule I had to enforce when he first got it.

Mounted Skirmisher was the argument around the wording of Full Round Action of Charge, and "if the mount moves etc" if the feat stated "if the mount takes a move action to do move at least 5ft" but it doesn't.

written vs intent - the bane of gaming groups

I am looking forward to the wendigo fight tbh. most of the fights aren't just straight up combat, so yes, although it's possible, it's not like it is game breaking.

[vhok]

if your mount is charging you count as charging, meaning +2atk -2AC 1 attack and you used both of your actions

FAQ

Mounted Combat: When making a charge while mounted, which creature charges? The rider or the mount?

Both charge in unison, suffer the same penalty to AC, the gaining the same bonus to the attack rolls and following all other rules for the charge. The mounted combat rules are a little unclear on this. Replace the third paragraph under the "Combat while Mounted" section on page 202 with the following text. Note that a "mounted charge" is synonymous with a "charge while mounted," and that when a lance is "when used from the back of a charging mount" it is during a mounted charge not when only the mount charges.
A mounted charge is a charge made by you and your mount. During a mounted charge, you deal double damage with your first melee attack made with a lance or with any weapon if you have Spirited Charge (or a similar effect), or you deal triple damage with a lance and Spirited Charge.

[*Thelith]

Yeah,
It's either charge and get your bonus charging damage with your lance as your only (one) attack.

Or move with your mount+feats and get all of the attacks with no bonus for charging.

Charge isn't a move, it's a special full round action.