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https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=322
The multiple attack penalty applies only during your turn, so you don’t have to keep track of it if you can perform an Attack of Opportunity or a similar reaction that lets you make a Strike on someone else’s turn.
https://2e.aonprd.com/Actions.aspx?ID=82
If you have a multiple attack penalty and your readied action is an attack action, your readied attack takes the multiple attack penalty you had at the time you used Ready. This is one of the few times the multiple attack penalty applies when it’s not your turn.
https://2e.aonprd.com/Traits.aspx?ID=133
Because a press action requires a multiple attack penalty, you can’t use one when it’s not your turn, even if you use the Ready activity.
Reaction dont use MAP
Ready says it use
Press says you cant use Press because you dont have MAP
The rules contradict each other.
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In Pathfinder, specific rules override general rules.
First,the "Readied Action" rule changes how an action that you make on someone else's turn works. The rule specifically says that it overrides the wording in the Reaction rule.
Next, the Press trait changes how the Readied action works. It specifically says that you can't use a press action if it's not your turn.
So there's no ambiguity and no contradiction. If you're using an action with the Press trait, you can't take that action if it's not your turn.
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In Pathfinder, specific rules override general rules.
First,the "Readied Action" rule changes how an action that you make on someone else's turn works. The rule specifically says that it overrides the wording in the Reaction rule.
Next, the Press trait changes how the Readied action works. It specifically says that you can't use a press action if it's not your turn.
So there's no ambiguity and no contradiction. If you're using an action with the Press trait, you can't take that action if it's not your turn.
General: Reaction dont use MAP
Specific: Ready reaction use MAPContradiction: Press Trait says Ready reaction dont have MAP vs Ready action says it does.
In Pathfinder, specific rules override general rules.
First,the "Readied Action" rule changes how an action that you make on someone else's turn works. The rule specifically says that it overrides the wording in the Reaction rule.
Next, the Press trait changes how the Readied action works. It specifically says that you can't use a press action if it's not your turn.
So there's no ambiguity and no contradiction. If you're using an action with the Press trait, you can't take that action if it's not your turn.
General: Reaction dont use MAP
Specific: Ready reaction use MAP
Contradiction: Press Trait says Ready reaction dont have MAP vs Ready action says it does.
Incorrect, it's 3 levels of specificity.
The press trait is more specific than the ready trait for this specific scenario.
Press is saying you can't use it when it's not your turn (typically because you don't have MAP) but goes on to say you still can't use it with a readied action. No explanation for why is given, but there's no contradiction. Despite the fact that your readied action could have MAP, you're still not allowed to use readied actions with the Press trait.
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Incorrect, it's 3 levels of specificity.The press trait is more specific than the ready trait for this specific scenario.
Press is saying you can't use it when it's not your turn (typically because you don't have MAP) but goes on to say you still can't use it with a readied action. No explanation for why is given, but there's no contradiction. Despite the fact that your readied action could have MAP, you're still not allowed to use readied actions with the Press trait.
It explicit says:
Because a press action requires a multiple attack penalty, you can’t use one when it’s not your turn, even if you use the Ready activity.If MAP its a requirement and it says that you dont meet this requirement, you cant have MAP during the ready action.
So you have MAP and can use Press with a Ready Action, or you dont have MAP with the Ready.
To have the meaning that you are saying, the text should be fixed to:
Even if you use the Ready activity, you can’t use a press action when it’s not your turn.
NO, it's telling you that despite the fact that you could have MAP with the readied action, you still can't use readied actions with the Press trait with no explanation as to why.
But I can understand why you might think the first part of the sentence before the first comma would be applied to the last section. It could be worded better to make it clear that not being able to use Press even if you have a readied action with MAP is separate.
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There is MAP on the Raadied actions. There has been other threads discussing that point.
The Press trait explicitly says it cannot be used with the Ready Action.
I don't see any conflict.
I think you are trying to connect the language in Press to all actions that Ready is used for and it does not apply to them.
Incorrect, it's 3 levels of specificity.The press trait is more specific than the ready trait for this specific scenario.
Press is saying you can't use it when it's not your turn (typically because you don't have MAP) but goes on to say you still can't use it with a readied action. No explanation for why is given, but there's no contradiction. Despite the fact that your readied action could have MAP, you're still not allowed to use readied actions with the Press trait.
It explicit says:
Because a press action requires a multiple attack penalty, you can’t use one when it’s not your turn, even if you use the Ready activity.If MAP its a requirement and it says that you dont meet this requirement, you cant have MAP during the ready action.
So you have MAP and can use Press with a Ready Action, or you dont have MAP with the Ready.
To have the meaning that you are saying, the text should be fixed to:
Even if you use the Ready activity, you can’t use a press action when it’s not your turn.
Uh, that's actually exactly what the Press Trait says, at least when I looked it up on the Archives of Nethys. Emphasis added by me:
Source Core Rulebook pg. 635 2.0
Actions with this trait allow you to follow up earlier attacks. An action with the press trait can be used only if you are currently affected by a multiple attack penalty. Some actions with the press trait also grant an effect on a failure. The effects that are added on a failure don’t apply on a critical failure. If your press action succeeds, you can choose to apply the failure effect instead. (For example, you may wish to do this when an attack deals no damage due to resistance.) Because a press action requires a multiple attack penalty, you can’t use one when it’s not your turn, even if you use the Ready activity.
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Uh, that's actually exactly what the Press Trait says, at least when I looked it up on the Archives of Nethys. Emphasis added by me:Source Core Rulebook pg. 635 2.0
Actions with this trait allow you to follow up earlier attacks. An action with the press trait can be used only if you are currently affected by a multiple attack penalty. Some actions with the press trait also grant an effect on a failure. The effects that are added on a failure don’t apply on a critical failure. If your press action succeeds, you can choose to apply the failure effect instead. (For example, you may wish to do this when an attack deals no damage due to resistance.) Because a press action requires a multiple attack penalty, you can’t use one when it’s not your turn, even if you use the Ready activity.
I dont know if this is a language barrier ( since english isn't my native language), or many years as a software developer using logical clauses.
But slicing the text as logical validations its false.
I think is just the text that isnt clear enough.
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What's unclear about "you can't use one when it's not your turn, even if you use the ready action?"
I can see why that sentence is frustrating, but I would just focus on this part "...you can’t use one when it’s not your turn, even if you use the Ready activity." You can't use a press as a ready activity because press explicitly says so. Regardless of the reason given in the first part of the sentence.
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What's unclear about "you can't use one when it's not your turn, even if you use the ready action?"
The part not quoted. Because its no a valid reason.
If a premise is false, all the rest of a text is false too.Because John Doe commited a crime, he must be sent to prison, even if he is innocent.
Because the earth is flat, you cant use a globe to represent it, even if you prove the circumference.
So?
Yeah, there's a bit of a wording SNAFU there, but the intent is pretty clear that you can't ready actions with the Press trait. Maybe Paizo will issue an errata removing the "Because a press action requires a multiple attack penalty" part of the sentence, but I don't think it's a big enough deal for them to make it a priority.
I have to agree with Ventnor, while the wording should be fixed "even if you use the ready action" is really about as explicit as you can get.
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I can follow Samir's reasoning.
I don't give it for granted, but it's really plausible that paizo forgot about the fact you maintain your MAP even on readied actions.
As for me, given the fact a character suffers from map, I see no reason not to grant him the possibility to ready a press action.
That would help the press actions to be more useful in many situations, like ready an aggressive shove after the first attack hit. Or a shatter defenses to enable an ally to demoralize first. Or Advantageous Assault to wait for a trip at the opponent...
Uh, that's actually exactly what the Press Trait says, at least when I looked it up on the Archives of Nethys. Emphasis added by me:Source Core Rulebook pg. 635 2.0
Actions with this trait allow you to follow up earlier attacks. An action with the press trait can be used only if you are currently affected by a multiple attack penalty. Some actions with the press trait also grant an effect on a failure. The effects that are added on a failure don’t apply on a critical failure. If your press action succeeds, you can choose to apply the failure effect instead. (For example, you may wish to do this when an attack deals no damage due to resistance.) Because a press action requires a multiple attack penalty, you can’t use one when it’s not your turn, even if you use the Ready activity.
I dont know if this is a language barrier ( since english isn't my native language), or many years as a software developer using logical clauses.
But slicing the text as logical validations its false.
I think is just the text that isnt clear enough.
In general, people don't speak the way programmers program code. Trying to apply that level of strict adherence to something that's written in a casual manner simply doesn't work. The CRB is mostly written in informal English to make it friendlier.
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In general, people don't speak the way programmers program code. Trying to apply that level of strict adherence to something that's written in a casual manner simply doesn't work. The CRB is mostly written in informal English to make it friendlier.
I dont know if this is a language barrier ( since english isn't my native language), or many years as a software developer using logical clauses.But slicing the text as logical validations its false.
I think is just the text that isnt clear enough.
I'm just saying that this is avoidable, if you remove the false condition at the start of the sentence, it will continue with the same language and avoid any misleading interpretations.
I agree it could be worded better, but I don't think anyone is jumping to incorrect interpretations.
I think it's pretty clear that you can't use Press actions on Readied Actions. And it's also pretty clear that MAP applies on Readied Actions.
I think you arrive at those same conclusions, you're simply annoyed by the wording because you feel it to be a contradiction.
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I agree it could be worded better, but I don't think anyone is jumping to incorrect interpretations.
I think it's pretty clear that you can't use Press actions on Readied Actions. And it's also pretty clear that MAP applies on Readied Actions.
I think you arrive at those same conclusions, you're simply annoyed by the wording because you feel it to be a contradiction.
I don't know which text are incorrect, you are expecting that the right text is the one in Ready action and not the one in the Press trait, because you think that would be the more balanced way to play. But either one has the chance of be fixed.
You cannot use Press with a ready since you are not suffering from a MAP since MAP disappears at the end of your turn. Lets say you use the Ready action to throw a dagger at someone to disarm them if they draw an item, but you also have Attack of Opportunity. The ready will suffer from an inherited MAP that is unique to that reaction, but you yourself do not suffer from MAP. You could do an Attack of Opportunity without MAP.
If Press said, "You can only use an action with the Press trait if the action suffers from MAP" then you'd be correct Samir, however it does not and so the others are correct.
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There isn't contradiction on what rules apply. It's clearly stated that Press action can't be used when Readying an action.
But there is contradiction in the explanation of the rules. The Press rules say the reason you can't do it is because Readied Actions don't have MAP - that explanation is confusing. I guess that's where Samir's problem is. Without that note the rules would be more clear.
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I can follow Samir's reasoning.
I don't give it for granted, but it's really plausible that paizo forgot about the fact you maintain your MAP even on readied actions.
As for me, given the fact a character suffers from map, I see no reason not to grant him the possibility to ready a press action.
Expect for the fact that it says you can't use a press action with the ready action.
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There isn't contradiction on what rules apply. It's clearly stated that Press action can't be used when Readying an action.
But there is contradiction in the explanation of the rules. The Press rules say the reason you can't do it is because Readied Actions don't have MAP - that explanation is confusing. I guess that's where Samir's problem is. Without that note the rules would be more clear.
Exactly.
The explanation is wrong and that's my point. A false premise invalidate an argument.|
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I suggest you to read my last post ( the one before yours ), in order to better understand what I meant to say.Expect for the fact that it says you can't use a press action with the ready action.I can follow Samir's reasoning.
I don't give it for granted, but it's really plausible that paizo forgot about the fact you maintain your MAP even on readied actions.
As for me, given the fact a character suffers from map, I see no reason not to grant him the possibility to ready a press action.
Ok. At the time I replied it was to that first post, before you clarified what you were saying.