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Others have stated this, but I wanted to talk about the fact that a Gunslinger is largely the exact same class/role as a Fighter that doesn't have the same firepower:
1. They lack anything above Light Armor, which should add some diversity, but with their main schtick being DEX based attacks, it largely plays the same as an Archer with PBS on Fighter. No real change to the Class.
2. Lack of AoO, which also doesn't make as much of a difference to Gunslingers with Guns (since it has to be a melee attack). You gain a "way" benefit instead, but I don't know that I would put an encounter opening move on the same level as the one of the most powerful martial reactions in the game.
3. Lack of choice on weapons pidgeon holes you into smaller combat versatility. This is supposed to be alleviated by Class Feats that accentuate Firearms, but the reality is that some of those Feats end up just being "buy backs" for powers that Fighter already got. Being the best at guns when guns are the same as any other weapon just means you have less options to choose from than the fighter.
4. Feats aren't the only thing that make up a Class, generally, when it is a Class Path based Class. The current Class paths don't really serve to change the playstyle of the Class so much as they enforce them with restricted access in some cases (and in others, they don't really change/enforce anything at all). Ways in general are rather flimsy as a defining choice. The Sniper can't always be sniping even with heavy focus on it, the Drifter can't always be using melee and in some cases shouldn't be, and the pistolero (the most flexible IMO) doesn't really have an identity at all, it's just the "default" gunslinger to me (as pretty much either of the other two styles can be done by this one as well).
5. Thematically, if you said Fighters can take any of the Gunslinger Feat options, the two Classes would play identical. Now personally to me, I think if you can't compare two Classes and see immediate and distinct differences before feats, then you have a real problem. The truth of the matter is that a Fighter "swallows" the Gunslinger in terms of proficiency. It has all the proficiencies the Gunslinger has and then some.
So what to do right?
Now personally, I had seen the Class coming to PF2 in a totally different light, but I think that expectation is likely not to be a thing.
Thus the next best route I think would make sense to explore is making the Ways a lot more distinct as Class choices. Instead of making each way Initiative/first round based, just give every Gunslinger Improved Initiative for free and then grant them something else that gives the Gunslinger something distinct.
In addition, I think all Gunslingers absolutely 100% need a "secondary weapons" option that allows you to carry Proficiency (at least in part) to your other weapons. These weapons can be weaker, simple, or some other restricting metric so as to keep them from overpowering the Fighter's niche (too many weapon group proficiencies is basically "all of them").
What do you all think? At this point, I've submitted my surveys and finished out my playtest and I'm just left feeling "Why wouldn't I just play Fighter and give him a gun?"
Where are you all? How do you feel about the Gunslinger as it compares to the other Classes in the game?
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The gunslinger, as it is designed, should be a class archetype modifying fighter or just a set of fighter feats. It does nothing that doesn't fit into those frameworks with trivial adjustments.
This won't happen, since Paizo seems committed to making it a stand-alone class regardless.
Part of the issue is that "fighter" covers a great breadth of concepts, but even if you fragmented fighter into discrete functions, I still don't like basing a class on a weapon group. That level of focus should be constrained to archetypes if needed at all.
I'm really unsure how to weigh "the fighter is one of the two classes that lacks a class path" in terms of the budget for the class. Like generally a class path gives you something (albeit some give you more than others), and in the gunslinger's case you get training in a skill plus three deeds which is more than a some other classes paths have.
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Its a bit of a compounding problem right now. Guns are luckluster and the Gunslinger is left feeling largely like a bunch of duct tape that is used to fix that problem. This problem has to be solved first, before we can even take a look at the class.
Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of good ideas and concepts here. It just doesn't work in tandem with legendary proficiency eating up all the potential for making the class unique. The fighter can pull that off, simply because versatility is his thing and it fits the class fantasy. No super fancy and complicated bells and whistles, just tons of ways to do bad things to your enemies in any way your hearth desires. The gunslinger can't fit into that space and shouldn't, for obvious reasons.
What we are left with is a class that has no unique mechanical identity. That is by far the biggest issue I see. If we don't get rid of legendary weapon proficiency in exchange for meaningful core mechanics, this class will always feel like a ranged fighter. No amount of extra feats or buffs will change that.
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I like having the gunslinger as a separate class, but I do agree that there should be a lot more going on with the ways. Right now, there are 3 deeds each, some of which exclude a common play type that shouldn't be excluded from the given way (looking at you Rebounding Assault and Finish the Job), and 1 way-exclusive feat each. Each deed and the respective feat for each way is either an action of varying significance (compare Reloading Strike with Shattering Shot for example) or a minor benefit to the first turn of combat.
I'd kind of like to see this turned into something similar to Rogue's Racket or Swashbuckler's Style where they heavily influence the way that you play from the outset, with tangible bonuses to those styles of play, and then a slew of supporting feats or class features that further build on the base.
I don't really mind that the gunslinger is focused so heavily on firearms (and to a lesser extent crossbows), as it's a defining part of the trope that they're playing into, but I definitely want to see some more class features that aren't simply band-aids to make firearms viable weapons (note, not good weapons, just viable :/).
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When the identity of Fighters in 2e is "the best at using weapons" and a class comes along with "the best at a specific weapon type" as their schtick the line that separates them ought to get very muddled; honestly for the Gunslinger to feel unique they should lean fully into supporting reload weapons (Dual-Weapon Reload as a baseline, different Running Reload style feats to alleviate action economy, options to reload without incurring AoOs, potent options in their first range increment such as flanking from a distance, maybe additional precision damage to pick up the slack from needing to reload if the proficiency is bumped down to Master) and trick shots alongside more class features (Grit&Tenacity and True Grit would make for fantastic class-fantasy aligned defensive boosts).
And that's not getting into the guns themselves that at the moment are extremely pigeonholed into the crit-fishing territory that can swing from being devastating encounter destroyers to feeling like you're shooting pebbles if the crits decide they aren't showing up that day; they're also extremely unattractive to 90% of the other classes instead of interesting but niche picks balanced with the other options. Within the playtest rules the Gunslinger isn't just the best at using firearms, it's one of the few that can do so without dumping their DPR and action economy for the sake of flavor.
As the class stands right now it doesn't do enough to support reload-based weapons and the heavy action and DPR penalty associated with them, leading to options such as adopting Archer/Mauler/M.A. archetypes to transfer one of their biggest strengths (cream of the crop proficiency) to less-finicky weapon types such as bows, and that just feels like a very roundabout way of playing a Fighter with a cowboy hat and a straw grass in their mouth.
I'm really unsure how to weigh "the fighter is one of the two classes that lacks a class path" in terms of the budget for the class. Like generally a class path gives you something (albeit some give you more than others), and in the gunslinger's case you get training in a skill plus three deeds which is more than a some other classes paths have.
Let's look at the Deeds though:
Drifter
Into the Fray - A free move on the first turn basically, as weapons drawn is largely inconsequential. Doesn't really change the playstyle of the class at all
Rebounding Assault - Doublestrike with extra steps and also arguably not that great at doing anything other than being a weird way to use a Melee weapon + Firearm in tandom
Drifter's Wake - Absolutely cool. 15th level though and doesn't really change the playstyle (it's just a bunch of attacks, kind of like Dance of Thunder but worse).
Pistolero
Ten Paces - Incredible Initiative and a 10ft step at the start of your turn. Kinda same thing as Drifter, doesn't change the playstyle and occurs only on the first turn.
Pistolero's Return - Attack of Opportunity with Ranged weapons too but at level 9 with a much tighter restriction on trigger that you can't really "tactically" take advantage of IMO
Finish the Job - Not bad, it's basically a Press without being a Press with no MAP. Solid in power, but not much flavor.
Sniper
One Shot, One Kill - bonus damage on first hit. Not much going on.
Vital Shot - Power Attack with extra steps and later level
Ghost Shot - It basically allows you to fulfill your concept of Sniper on more than the first turn. Solid, but again, really late at 15th
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In short, calling them "3 Deeds" is like calling 3 peas "3 vegetables" when the Fighter is holding a Tomatoe and a Potatoe.
If I had a choice between "Sword and Pistol" vs. Into the Fray, I would choose Sword and Pistol every single time as a Drifter. I'd rather they get less skills and a bonus Skill based on Path than justifying the weaknesses of the current Ways based on a single Skill proficiency.
And if my choice was all 3 Deeds for one of those vs. AoO and Shield Block at level 1? I'd choose the latter (and I'd argue they get way more than just those two, that's just the first level comparison).
I blame the fact that is a class that specializes on a specific weapon group when we have already a class that specializes in a weapon group of their choosing and both have the damage enhancing mechanic being legendary in weapons that basically eats all the power budget of the class.
The main thing is that the increased proficiency is a multiplicative bonus and ranged attacks are weaker than melee STR ones by default for balance purposes because of range, if you played a finesse fighter with 10 STR or an archer one you see the lack of damage as well because that damaging boosting favors high die weapons an the STR damage bonus.
An additive bonus however like the Rogue Sneak Attack or Ranger Precise Edge works better for that type of weapon because they don't care about die size. Of course that would mean giving up legendary on weapons, however I doubt that people would vote that... unfortunatelly...
And I disagree with giving Gunslinger a secondary weapon btw, because fighter by itself only specializes in ONE group and keep that way until lvl 19.
And I disagree with giving Gunslinger a secondary weapon btw, because fighter by itself only specializes in ONE group and keep that way until lvl 19.
I think you're missing what I'm saying by secondary weapon proficiency.
For instance, picking "Sword" as a Fighter claims all of the following weapons:
- Greatsword
- Shortsword
- Longsword
- Rapier
- Falchion
- Saw-tooth Sabre
- Dogslicer
- Bastard Sword
- .... etc.
You get the idea. The above weapons are all over the place, from one handed with finesse, none of which are Simple, some two-handed, and with varying traits.
Giving Gunslingers access to a "single one handed simple weapon" for instance is not even close to the same level of value, not just because it functions as less weapon options but also because Simple weapons (and in particular one-handed weapon) are weaker by a measure.
Besides, all you do by restricting access to a Secondary weapon in the case of say the Way of the Drifter is that now I pretty much have to MCD for a way to get my Proficiency for my melee strikes (Martial Artist, Mauler for Bastard Sword, etc).
Why not give me a reason not to go outside Class by providing alleviation in Class?
Considering the devs already stated this idea was batted around for the Playtest Gunslinger, I see no reason we shouldn't entertain it coming back in some form and it definitely can be appropriately powered so as to not take the Fighter's spotlight given certain criteria for what qualifies.
Gunslinger is a fighter archetype in my head, no way around it, but if it makes Paizo happy to break out fighter archetypes on their own, then whatever.
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Fatal was a mistake.
The only reason Gunslinger "needs" to be Expert-Legendary is because how swingy firearms are.
Picks work because they never are mandatory so people who don't like crit fishing can just use another weapon. They also add STR to damage so not criting doesn't feel like garbage.
Getting rid of fatal would be the first step to make both firearms and the gunslinger feel better.
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Fatal was a mistake.
The only reason Gunslinger "needs" to be Expert-Legendary is because how swingy firearms are.
Picks work because they never are mandatory so people who don't like crit fishing can just use another weapon. They also add STR to damage so not criting doesn't feel like garbage.
Getting rid of fatal would be the first step to make both firearms and the gunslinger feel better.
Just out of curiosity on the last comment, I'm not sure what ways that Firearms could be changed that makes sense as a weapon without Fatal.
Personally, I would have liked to see the inverse of the Unsteady trait in a "Steady" trait. AKA Something akin to the Parry action but specifically for Firearms, perhaps even something as simple as aligning the sight on the weapon.
Then give Gunslingers interesting action economy based feats to work with the Steady action that make it not as taxing to do.
Then again though, Reload is already pretty action intensive and adding a whole other action to firearms makes them even more rough to use on a per turn basis.
Basically, I'm not sure how much more Guns can actually change and still be reasonably felt as Guns.
While they may not be currently "good" by some metrics, they do at least feel like they are in fact firearms (IMO).
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I think Fatal works for guns since "getting shot" is either "incredibly damaging" or "less traumatic than the vast majority of other things people can hit you with in this game."
Like if the bullet starts ricocheting around inside of your ribcage or your skull, you're dead. But if you're going to get wounded in the leg an axe is going to do a lot more damage than a gunshot... unless it hits the femoral artery.
Remember, a broadhead arrow is going to leave a bigger hole in you than a musketball, it's just that the arrow is going to go straight through but lead balls bounce when they hit hard things like bone.
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Fatal was a mistake.
The only reason Gunslinger "needs" to be Expert-Legendary is because how swingy firearms are.
Picks work because they never are mandatory so people who don't like crit fishing can just use another weapon. They also add STR to damage so not criting doesn't feel like garbage.
Getting rid of fatal would be the first step to make both firearms and the gunslinger feel better.
Just out of curiosity on the last comment, I'm not sure what ways that Firearms could be changed that makes sense as a weapon without Fatal.
Personally, I would have liked to see the inverse of the Unsteady trait in a "Steady" trait. AKA Something akin to the Parry action but specifically for Firearms, perhaps even something as simple as aligning the sight on the weapon.
Then give Gunslingers interesting action economy based feats to work with the Steady action that make it not as taxing to do.
Then again though, Reload is already pretty action intensive and adding a whole other action to firearms makes them even more rough to use on a per turn basis.
Basically, I'm not sure how much more Guns can actually change and still be reasonably felt as Guns.
While they may not be currently "good" by some metrics, they do at least feel like they are in fact firearms (IMO).
I think there is this kind of feeling among this forum that weapons have to have a niche or something to be justified as weapons. I don't think that's true.
Afterall, what is the niche of swords? Doing slashing damage? Or what is the niche of axes then, the sweep trait? There are lots of slashing weapons that are not swords and some sweep weapons that are not axes.
I agree that guns have to feel like guns but honestly, as long as they are ranged weapons that need to reload from time to time they will feel like firearms to me.
The need of them being mechanically different to other weapons has nothing to do with them feeling like guns or not.
I would be fine with them being high damage dice ranged weapons with lower range than bows and crossbows, reload and extra damaging traits. Some of them could have Fatal, others have Deadly. they could even have a completly new trait (like the previously discussed half dex to damage, +2 static damage would make adjusting early game numbers easier). Don't see why having That much of a difference between regular hits and critical hits would make firearms feel more like firearms. By real life logic, a bolt in the eye is as deadly as a bullet and one adds nothing on crits and the other has Fatal.
Going back into the niche thing, remember that the only reload 1+ martial weapon we know of is the halfling sling staff (Which has demonstrated than having a bigger dice is not enough to compete with composite bows). Paizo could make almost anything and make guns stand out enough, as differenciating simple guns from other simple reload weapons seems easy enough.
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I agree that guns need more variety and any reloading ranged weapon really fits that niche. Fatal doesn't seem like a good way to define ALL firearms.
I like fatal on the more sniper-y weapons like the musket (long barrel, single shot weapons). I like spread on the blunderbuss. Those seem like 2 solid niches.
I don't like fatal on some of the more pistol type weapons, the things I'm not seeing as something a sniper would focus on. Something that really emphasizes their generally close range and common integration with melee (sword and pistol) would be much better ten fatal. Or something to emphasize their disposability.
Another potential niche is a weapon with a magazine, or multiple shots before reloading. And that doesn't necessitate fatal either.
The way the gunslinger is set up just doesn't make sense to me. I feel like guns are purposely swingy and bad just to justify the gunslinger's existence. This also makes gunslinger feel like a bunch of feat taxes and negatively impacts the fun factor of the class. Thus we get discount Fighter, except they focus on ranged only.
There are some feats that feel like taxes, but only because guns are pretty janky right now. I think that if the guns proposed in the playtet had a couple more bullets in their chambers, that would make things like risky reload and reloading strike attractive but less mandatory, since some guns would reload less often and others more often (probably with a damage or beneficial trait trade off).
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I'm really unsure how to weigh "the fighter is one of the two classes that lacks a class path" in terms of the budget for the class. Like generally a class path gives you something (albeit some give you more than others), and in the gunslinger's case you get training in a skill plus three deeds which is more than a some other classes paths have.
I've given it some thought, and the ways seem to be weighted as equivalent to AoO and the two combat flexibility feats. Which means fighters are still beating the pants off of Gunslingers.
Their chassis is short at least 1 class feature, arguably 2 or 3 given the narrower applicability of the features they do have.
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One thing that I think is getting tried out in the playtest is looking at the gunslinger as a character who does more than just fight. There are way more utility feats in the gunslinger tool kit than there are in the fighters, and they get an extra skill. I am not saying that it is enough, but the playtest Gunslinger is different from the fighter in that it has a lot more utility options on it. Right now a lot of those utility options are difficult to figure out how to use in play, but it is interesting.
Like the 20th level Slinger's reaction feat is really interesting, but requiring a loaded gun to pull off most of the coolest reactions makes it kind of a moot feat.
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One thing that I think is getting tried out in the playtest is looking at the gunslinger as a character who does more than just fight. There are way more utility feats in the gunslinger tool kit than there are in the fighters, and they get an extra skill. I am not saying that it is enough, but the playtest Gunslinger is different from the fighter in that it has a lot more utility options on it. Right now a lot of those utility options are difficult to figure out how to use in play, but it is interesting.
Like the 20th level Slinger's reaction feat is really interesting, but requiring a loaded gun to pull off most of the coolest reactions makes it kind of a moot feat.
I mean I fail to see how there's more utility honestly. Most of the feats are offensive, and there is about 1 Feat every other feat tier that you could maybe argue is utility depending on how you want to define it.
I do not consider "Risky Reload", "Reloading Strike", etc. to be "utility" just in case that's the definition we're working with.
And even if "hey they have more utility!" was the intended direction, when you feel like you can't afford the Utility options at all because the rest of the Feats are too necessary to actually function (Firearm Ace, Reloading Strike, etc.) it doesn't really matter.
Besides, when you give a Class legendary attack proficiency, you're all but relegating them to non-utility actions in combat anyways or they won't be taking advantage of their main Class Feature.
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PF1 making people with crossbows or guns take a bunch of feats to make them able to reload for a free action is not a thing I want to see back.
I'd rather get more stuff like "reload and move with one action" (reloading needs you hands, and maybe your eyes, but the rest of your body can do other stuff) than to remove the reloading cost.
Like "This bullet's got your name on it" as a reload+intimidate check is such an obvious thing to give the class.
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Like "This bullet's got your name on it" as a reload+intimidate check is such an obvious thing to give the class.
ROFL, if they don't make this Feat I will homebrew one. Love it.
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They really should just add, at level 1, 3 class features:
1) Reload Ace, which is a cut/paste of crossbow ace, just with all Reload weapons that have a reload value of 1 or higher.
2) Running Reload
3) An ability that lets you reload with both hands full (not dual-weapon Reload, as that would mean dual weapon GSes are unable to use their reload+X feats).
Then add feats to expand your running reload, e.g.
The afforementioned “This bullet has your name on it”
Acrobatic Reload - “When you use Running Reload, you can replace the Step, Stride or Sneak with Tumble Through or Stand”
Empty Chamber - “When you use Running Reload, you can replace the Step, Stride or Sneak with Feint. If you do, the Feint can target a creature up to your weapon’s first ranged increment” (replacing warning shot).