As the title says, I think it might be a good idea to expand on the Half-Dragon creature template and turn it into a Versatile Heritage. I'm sure I speak for many when I say that we would like to see a player option that is related more to True Dragons than some of the other Ancestries we have and will come to see. Kobolds, Wyvaran, and Dragonkin (which I expect to be playable at some point) are great, but I'd like to see something a bit more. Something that one could say with certainty that their character is related to Dragons. And with Versatile Heritages, I feel this would be an excellent time to do so; and to do so in a way that is more inclusive to all the septs of True Dragons.
My basic idea is this: Half-Dragon, known either as Draconians or Dragonborn (pretty sure at this point, the name is no longer owned by WotC; given the Dovahkiin. Could be wrong.), is a Versatile Heritage applicable to all Ancestries (even Kobold, who can henceforth claim actual draconic lineage). Obviously, the Heritage gives all sorts of benefits and feat options, but what I really want to see is Lineages based on the seven families of True Dragons and maybe even some Lesser Dragonkind, like Linnorm. In doing this, they can make them feel just a bit more unique. Someone who counts a Red Dragon amongst their bloodline surely should feel different compared to a descendant of the dynasty of Sovereign Dragons in Tian Xia.
Any further ideas to expand on this concept at all? I realize that a lot of True Dragons, atm, feel relatively similar; so a lot of Half-Dragons probably would as well. But with enough brainpower, we can figure something out. Some might bring up the argument of creating a completely unique Ancestry in order to keep Half-Dragon as a template. Which is fair. The ability to create draconic creatures on the fly is one that should stay. But, maybe just rename it Draconic or something.
There have been a lot of indications from assorted Paizo personages that they would rather leave playable dragon people to WOTC, and they definitely wouldn't use the same name that WOTC uses even if it wasn't a possible copyright issue (which it may still be a copyright issue, Bethesda likely gets around it because the Dovakhin isn't a dragon person and is primarily in a different form of media) simply because that would be very unoriginal. If they did do dragon people again, it would likely be the pre-existing dragonkin from pathfinder 1e (not-playable) and starfinder (playable) instead of being called dragonborn.
Basically, if you want it, you will need to homebrew it or wait for the inevitable third party supplement to add it.
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I’ve never personally been a fan of the visual design of Dragonborn since their introduction in D&D 4e.
The art direction in previous editions, namely 3.x, was generally somewhat more grounded and had a grittier quality to it. 4e Dragonborn looked and felt very much of the MMO era. Didn’t appeal to me.
I’m otherwise all for half-dragons as long as they aren’t meant to look like they fell out of Azeroth.
I feel like a "Lost Omens: Dragons" supplement is more or less inevitable at some point. Like, say, 4-5 years down the road. If such a thing happens, I would expect a heritage or ancestry to be in there.
It seems unlikely that it would be a versatile heritage if things go as far as the dragonborn.
At some point, I think "being completely covered in scales, having a reptile head, and a tail" might be slightly more defining to your lifestyle than whether your mother was a human or an elf. And one of the remaining major race differences- size- is already covered narratively by kobolds being the small dragon like race.
So the more likely option is the slighter option with simple horns, a few patches of scales, etc. ....and that can be hard to differentiate from tieflings in terms of general impression. Especially a human tiefling with the dragon spit feat.
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Not really necessary, in my opinion. Kobolds are a really dragon-themed full ancestry, and fill the niche of "dragonkin" quite well. Dragon Disciple and dragon sorcerers/barbarians are good options too.
I *would* get behind a FULL dragon ancestry in a powerful ancestries book, however.
While I don't think we need a half-dragon versatile heritage just yet (as we still are doing a lot of catching up and exploring new avenues), this sort of thing seems ripe for homebrew. I don't even think it would be that difficult in terms of balancing as many of the components there are present in other ancestry feats.
If I were to look at the number of options available for people who want a connection to draconic forebears, I'd have quite the number of options to choose from. I'd rather see something new.
I'm not here to argue the why or purpose behind the idea, only the how of it. Simply want to gain some ideas, provide some feedback, and hope that the good people of Paizo care enough to consider such an idea to include in a game system I adore. Could go back and forth on the semantics of the place this could fill within 2e till I'm blue in the face. Not what I wanna do here though. Just wanna have fun conceptualizing something that, if push comes to shove, I can simply homebrew in with the ideas of others interested in it. Although, I don't care to homebrew. I much prefer to construct characters and concepts within the lines of the rules present.
Personally, I want to be able to play a character who has ties to Dragons in a way not already presented in game. I don't want to play a small Kobold or a Draconic Sorcerer. I want to be able to play something like a descendant of the Sovereign Dragons of Xa Hoi, who has levels in Fighter or Swashbuckler (or Samurai, should it return), and actually benefits mechanically due to his birthright. Or, even a full Draconic Ancestry, such as the Dragonkin. This is part of my reasoning for opening this discuession. Plus, I like to pour through 1e lore and mechanics to see what can be expanded on. This was just one of those many things.
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I think the time is ripe for it;
- The versatile heritages from APG give a clear idea how it could be done
- People are interested in it
- 2E dragons actually can have shapeshifting abilities that last longer than a 10m quickie.
Mechanically, I think it's pretty straightforward, mostly looking at Tieflings. Taking the heritage would probably give you a vision upgrade (normal -> low-light -> darkvision), a dragon trait, access to draconic language, access to half-dragon feats, and access to dragon disciple dedication.
The feats then determine your physical expression; it could follow the Tiefling style where you can only select some physical things like claws at level 1, because you were born with them or not. On the other hand, your parent being a shapechanger might be enough to justify developing retractable claws later on as well.
Feats could cover a bunch of draconic attributes: claws/bite/tail, breath weapons, senses, a few innate spells, draconic arrogance giving you some social powers and maybe resistance to bullying mental abilities, maybe some imprecise sense to pick up on invisible thieves in your lair, temporary wings / continuous wings, energy resistance, and perhaps a full dragon form.
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Am I the only one that worries that we will see that same dragon breath chart again? The one used with barbarians, sorcerers, and kobolds?
Part of me feels it is far, far too soon. You would at least need something like Dragons of Legacy, where they do something other than the same metallic and chromatic set used in everything.
I think they should do it because dragons are cool, and kobolds aren't tall enough to be cool. They're only cute and fun.
Also a lot of my friends would be more excited to play if they could play as human-sized dragonfolk.
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Half dragon Characters are canonically way, WAY too powerful to ever be in consideration for actual Player Characters. It could exist for 1st ed as a Template because... well 1st ed didn't even TRY to care about level balance when it came to templates and threw out all of the math at a GMs whim.
They added 22 points to the Characters Ability Scores, permanent Flight, Darkvision, a Breath Weapon, Immunity to Sleep and Paralysis plus one type of elemental damage, +4 AC, and three Natural Attacks.
I don't ever want Paizo to try to cram all of this into an Ancestry selection of any type whatsoever. If 3PP wants to come along and create something that fills this space sure, go ahead but it will STILL either be way out of the ballpark in terms of how powerful a sub level 15 PC should be or would need to be nerfed down to the point where you're essentially just playing a Medium Kobold in the first place.
Half dragon Characters are canonically way, WAY too powerful to ever be in consideration for actual Player Characters.
I rather suspect that's because they are canonically half dragon. But a heritage modeled after aasimar/tieflings/etc would tend to be people with a dragon ancestor much farther away. Really "dragon-blooded" would be a better name, just as "elf-blooded" and "orc-blooded" would be better names in this edition for half-elves and half-orcs IMHO.
I'm pretty certain that 2e has proven at this point that it is a system more than capable of balancing out most of its options. We already have been presented with numerous other Ancestry options that were considerably stronger in 1e than the base Races; all of which are on equal footing with the base Ancestries of 2e. No reason that any Draconic-based Ancestry would be any different, even if they were canonically referred to as "Half-Dragons". Things like Flight, Breath Weapons, and other similar Abilities would most certainly be relegated to Ancestry Feats; which are themselves typically barred by a number of factors. No reason to believe they wouldn't be, or that the entire concept cannot be balanced in some way. They certainly wouldn't gain access to such ludicrous Stats or Abilities out of the gate; and definitely wouldn't have 22 HP, given that no other Half or Versatile Heritage modifies HP. At most, I'd assume they would start with minor elemental or energy resistance, which could be enhanced with further Feat options. At the very least, they would start with modified visual senses, as most of the other Half/Versatile Heritages do.
As far as names go; it isn't what I'm trying to focus on here. Dragonborn and Dragonian are just two examples of names I like. Dragonblooded would be fine but may work better as a Creature Template name, freeing up Half-Dragon. Dragonkin would also work well here, but it is taken. Personally, I would change the Dragonkin to Dragonians, to kind of match the naming convention of the Triaxians, or just give them an internal name like many Ancestries have now.
Again, this all comes down to providing a myriad of robust and variable options for people to play with. As Grankless said, Dragons are cool; but Kobolds, as cute as they are, shouldn't be the end-all Ancestry option to playing a character of Draconic origin. Not everyone wants to play a small character. I for one typically avoid them. And perhaps, again, you don't want to play a Class like Barbarian or Sorcerer to meet your narrative needs; or even have to take an Archetype for that matter. Versatility and options are Pathfinders strength, has been for a very long time. Nothing should be off the table to meet that philosophy.
No. Just no.
Like I said, this feels perfectly fine as a thing to easily homebrew. If the goal was to see who else was interested, you might be seeing the results of too much dragon stuff served up as options.
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We're just going to ignore the Wyvarans then.
The wyvarans are neat (and I forgot about them), but what the hell is with the wolf heads?
Someone ran with the old description of kobolds having dog-like heads.
With the discussion, and my own desire for a draconic version of a tiefling or aasimar... decided to whip this up after I got home from work today.
Isn't this basically Kobold ancestry? If so we'll seems fine.
a dragon character is a very interesting concept
dragon disciple dragon sorcerer dragon barbarian etc...
i always wondered what is the most dragon character i can make
a human with dragon blood + dragon sorcerer + dragon disciple is my go to so far
the one problem i always had is the character not being able to remain in the dragon form i don't even care about the power just keep him in
the dragon form permanently
there is the kobold but dignity wont let em play as one
a dragon character is a very interesting concept
dragon disciple dragon sorcerer dragon barbarian etc...
i always wondered what is the most dragon character i can make
a human with dragon blood + dragon sorcerer + dragon disciple is my go to so far
the one problem i always had is the character not being able to remain in the dragon form i don't even care about the power just keep him in
the dragon form permanentlythere is the kobold but dignity wont let em play as one
Dragon druid, eventually you can just stay a dragon for good. The problem is not being able to cast spells in a battle form...
Not really understanding the argument that their would be an oversaturation of Dragon based options. As it stands, there exist 3 classes, 1 archetype, and 1 ancestry that plays with a draconic theme; and a handful of feats. Dragons are a quintessential part of fantasy and is in no way exclusive to any setting. I.e: They exist in Golarion. Furthermore, people and creatures of draconic descent are extant within the Pathfinder universe and not all of them belong to any of the aforementioned options.
2e presents a prime system built to handle this idea in a fresh and balanced way. Again, the strength of Pathfinder is the plethora of options that allow for all sorts of playstyles and stories. Why would the developers, or the player base in this case, actively work to throttle that? You don't wanna play a draconic Human or Elf, or even a fully draconic Ancestry. Thats fine. Don't. But don't take that possibly from the rest of us.
And, I'm not disregarding the Wyvaran. I wholly expected them to return, just a matter of how. The Heritage system makes me think they will be a sort of advanced Heritage; something akin to the complexity of a Versatile Heritage, but specific to a certain Ancestry. Gillman seem like a good place for this too. But, I think if an Ancestry is to complex or too far detached from their parentage are likely to be full Ancestries; following the example of Android, who are a confirmed Ancestry.
Dragon druid, eventually you can just stay a dragon for good. The problem is not being able to cast spells in a battle form...a dragon character is a very interesting concept
dragon disciple dragon sorcerer dragon barbarian etc...
i always wondered what is the most dragon character i can make
a human with dragon blood + dragon sorcerer + dragon disciple is my go to so far
the one problem i always had is the character not being able to remain in the dragon form i don't even care about the power just keep him in
the dragon form permanentlythere is the kobold but dignity wont let em play as one
but then the power isn't coming from his dragon bloodline he is just using a polymorph spell
dragons descendant humans with draconic bloodline as well as entreat with forebears + dragons disciple feels like your character is becoming a dragon and its regarded by other dragons as one of then or close while druid its more like you you can shift into anything including a dragon
yes in practical terms the druid is better but it completely ruins the roleplay aspect and what designer thought the archetype designed to be focused on becoming a dragon should be worse at ti than a druid dammit you would think they would have fixed that from 1e if a class has the sole purpose of doing 1 thing it should always do that 1 thing better than anyone else
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I want to play a full blooded honest to goodness dragon, tired of beating around the bush!
I want to play a full blooded honest to goodness dragon, tired of beating around the bush!
i mean yeah pretty much everyone likes that but i find it hard to see paizo giving us that they don't seem to like this kind of idea for some reason
It's a bit more work to design, but I think either full dragon as ancestry, or maybe as a class (to spread your draconic growth over levels), is quite doable to implement in 2E.
Mommy dragon: they grow up so fast!
i totally agree that is perfectly doable and i'm all in for it but let me ask that what what the last time paizo allowed players to play as monsters even lower than their level in terms of power?
if i could i would love to play as one its sad because there are so many possibilities
imagine an animal that became a druid through the powers of nature and learned to speak so unlike humans he wants to protect nature and animals because they are basically what society is to us
imagine being a baby dragon that got your parents killed and you are chased by a pathfinder equivalent of the dragon cult so you need to disguise as a human and be on the move so you disguise as a sorcerer
imagine being a pharasmin who got turned into a vampire and now you are hunted by your peers including paladins inquisitors and war-priests so you must flee while searching for a cure as your atonement task
imagine begin a hyper realistic construct who for whatever reason came to "true" life and decided to escape his insane creator who now seeks to break him apart to leanr the secrets of sentience and souls
imagine being a wizard apprentice who found a fishy ritual to attain immortality except since you are level 1 and you don't realize its a ritual to become a lich and a amateur work as the author completely overlooked the sacrifices and phylactery now you are a variant version of a forsaken lich doomed to have your soul destroyed in a few years so you must look for an way to complete the ritual or face oblivion
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i totally agree that is perfectly doable and i'm all in for it but let me ask that what what the last time paizo allowed players to play as monsters even lower than their level in terms of power?
Never. But if there was a system to pull it off, Pf2 is capable of it.
I honestly can't think of a better set of tools to make classes that would have you play a dragon, undead lich/mummy, or Titan scion. You even have the ability to say Dragon players don't get ancestry feats; they instead get a preset list of powers at the set levels. Biggest problem I can see is that size would be an issue for dragons and giants.
Short of becoming a full dragon, I can see a Dragon Shifter that is RP'd as really a dragon shifted in humanoid form, who's class abilities are them shifting into their real form.
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i totally agree that is perfectly doable and i'm all in for it but let me ask that what what the last time paizo allowed players to play as monsters even lower than their level in terms of power?
PFS1 #7-99 Through Maelstrom Rift, is an adventure where everyone plays some kind of elemental creature, including a tiny dragon and a magma wurm.
By which I didn't want to say we should sit still now. But I think we'll probably get served by a third party product sooner than Paizo itself.
not a fan of 3pp its not allowed on society and many if not most tables i have seem don't allow it others require gm permission
like entering a table and not knowing whether the class you want will be allowed is not a good feeling