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the eidolon and summoner could have uses for its last action if boost was just rolled into the base eidolon (it would not imbalance anything) in some way and reinforce was made a reaction, but if you made it a reaction youd need other reactions to compete with it or you are just auto filling your reaction every round.
Martial, you do recognize that most classes damage boost abilities have action costs associated with them right?
For some, like Rage or Studied Strike the costs are explicit, and last for varied amounts of time. Rage costs one action per encounter, but comes with significant drawbacks. Studied Strike, by default, costs one action per attack. By comparison, Boost Eidolon costs one action but comes with zero drawbacks or limitations and can be applied to all attacks in a round - including three actions worth of strikes.
Hunt Prey also fits into this category.
For other classes, like Rogue Sneak Attack, the action costs are not explicit but they still exist. Turning on Sneak Attack requires any number of possible actions to set up flat footed, but it does require actions (though not always from the rogue).
Boost Eidolon being rolled into the base numbers would in fact be unbalanced relative to most Martial classes, as most Martial Classes have to pay some sort of "Action tax" or "Drawback Tax" to enable their damage boost... Fighters excepted. Summoners don't have anything that warrants them just getting a "free pass" here.
Summoners actually get a relatively good deal with Boost Eidolon, as one action lasts all round and has no drawbacks or conditions like Rage. Its just free damage.
The big issue is that its kindof boring... but that can be fixed.
It doesn't mean it should just be rolled into the numbers tho.
This post made me put some thought into ways that Boost Eidolon's damage mechanic could be adjusted to still be an action cost while being more interesting, and I think I might have thought of one. Its based on the idea of Rogue's action cost being tied to Movement, and could lead to the creation of some related effects down the line.
**Project Presence
Free Action, Somatic
Summoner, Eidolon, Flourish
Range 100'
Duration Until the end of the round.
You pull the tether comnecting you to your Eidolon taut, focusing a burst of energy down the line. Draw a straight line of up to the Range of this spell, starting from your summoner and passing through your eidolon, and select one target the line passes through. Your Eidolon deals 2[maybe more? Now that its position-based?] additional damage with its attacks against the designated target per weapon damage die.
This would allow for the action economy to be shifted to Summoner or Eidolon movement, similar to Rogue Flanking, and creates an extra interaction between the 2 character pair that is wholly unique at this point in the game. In addition, putting more of the emphasis on the Tether aspect could lead to feat suggestions down the line that could manifest the Tether for more combat options. (See the game Astral Chain, where the teher can be used to lockdown targets by encircling in them, or to launch charging foes by pulling it taut as they run past, perhaps could be recreated as a trip or a reaction of some sort here.)
I'd like to have a baseline reaction or free action, with frequency once per day and the requirement that your eidolon is manifested, which gives you temporary HP equal your level * eidolon's CON. These temporary HP go away if the eidolon is no longer manifested.
Maybe with a trigger like "if you would reach 0 HP", but that's not necessary.With that, you have an emergency reserve, your eidolon's CON score matters more, but it's still the same as having a lot more HP because you can't heal them.
That's not bad.
The Eidolon's CON once per day is fair.
Id suggested, or had been considering suggesting that the summoner's HP be reduced by 2 down to 8, but have the Eidolon be granted 2 Temp HP with potentially indefinite (or long) duration. With them being refeshed whenever the Eidolon is manifested. My concept had them only affecting things damaging the Eidolon, as I normally had the impression that the Eidolon was tougher than the summoners, generally. Since manifesting takes all three actions in a round, it felt like it was could have the impression being reasonable.
I had gotten a little concerned thinking about a 3 action activity restoring 40 temp HP per round potentially being able to be too much at 20th level. However, if the temporary HP were either the Eidolon's CON bonus in HP, or its level + its CON bonus, that might be less of a balance risk. (+ 6 temp HP would be very little, while 26 would seem potentially reasonable by 20th level) It returns a bit of validity back to the Eidolon being the more resilient entity, for those narratives.
I'll admit the primary thing that I don't like about it would be the potential complication of how to word the Eidolon having its own Temp HP, and when those HPs get expended. In basic theory, it is easy. (when damage done to Eidolon) but it gets more complicated if damage is being applied to both, especially if the Eidolon or Summoner took more damage, due to resistances or weaknesses to an area effect.
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the eidolon and summoner could have uses for its last action if boost was just rolled into the base eidolon (it would not imbalance anything) in some way and reinforce was made a reaction, but if you made it a reaction youd need other reactions to compete with it or you are just auto filling your reaction every round.
Martial, you do recognize that most classes damage boost abilities have action costs associated with them right?
For some, like Rage or Studied Strike the costs are explicit, and last for varied amounts of time. Rage costs one action per encounter, but comes with significant drawbacks. Studied Strike, by default, costs one action per attack. By comparison, Boost Eidolon costs one action but comes with zero drawbacks or limitations and can be applied to all attacks in a round - including three actions worth of strikes.
Hunt Prey also fits into this category.
For other classes, like Rogue Sneak Attack, the action costs are not explicit but they still exist. Turning on Sneak Attack requires any number of possible actions to set up flat footed, but it does require actions (though not always from the rogue).
Boost Eidolon being rolled into the base numbers would in fact be unbalanced relative to most Martial classes, as most Martial Classes have to pay some sort of "Action tax" or "Drawback Tax" to enable their damage boost... Fighters excepted. Summoners don't have anything that warrants them just getting a "free pass" here.
Summoners actually get a relatively good deal with Boost Eidolon, as one action lasts all round and has no drawbacks or conditions like Rage. Its just free damage.
The big issue is that its kindof boring... but that can be fixed.
It doesn't mean it should just be rolled into the numbers tho.
Fighters have +2 to hit more than any other class and don't have to pay actions for it. They also have abilities that give utility that don't cost more actions (or feats), and feats which outright reduce actions needed or allow certain attack combinations to work compared to other characters. Maybe the exception and not the norm, but "free boosts" with offense without cost are certainly not unheard of.
As for cost besides the action, it's potentially preventing the ability to strike with your Eidolon for passing damage while throwing out a spell or utilizing a staff/scroll. And this assumes you hit. You could miss and then have a round wasted because you decided buffing your Eidolon was a better use of actions. Even True Strike is a better boost than this.
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Fighters have +2 to hit more than any other class and don't have to pay actions for it. They also have abilities that give utility that don't cost more actions (or feats), and feats...
IIRC the design team has stated in the past that the Fighter's big selling point was being better than everyone else at accuracy, although I could be misremembering. Not sure about the rest of your point on the fighter, but hopefully more feat options will remedy this somewhat for the Summoner.
For the second point, see my previous comment for a proposed solution that would balance it more like Rogue Sneak Attack where the action cost is tied to positioning.
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Eidolons absolutely need more kinds of actions they can take besides the trifecta of stride, step, strike so any kind of defensive action (like the temp HP thing) is a good idea.
Not really interested in a feat tax to enable/disable a basic feature we have right now.
so you do not like synthesis?
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the eidolon and summoner could have uses for its last action if boost was just rolled into the base eidolon (it would not imbalance anything) in some way and reinforce was made a reaction, but if you made it a reaction youd need other reactions to compete with it or you are just auto filling your reaction every round.Martial, you do recognize that most classes damage boost abilities have action costs associated with them right?
...
The big issue is that its kind of boring... but that can be fixed.This post made me put some thought into ways that Boost Eidolon's damage mechanic could be adjusted to still be an action cost while being more interesting, and I think I might have thought of one. Its based on the idea of Rogue's action cost being tied to Movement, and could lead to the creation of some related effects down the line.
**Project Presence
Free Action, Somatic
Summoner, Eidolon, Flourish
Range 100'
Duration Until the end of the round.You pull the tether comnecting you to your Eidolon taut, focusing a burst of energy down the line. Draw a straight line of up to the Range of this spell, starting from your summoner and passing through your eidolon, and select one target the line passes through. Your Eidolon deals 2 [maybe more? Now that its position-based?] additional damage with its attacks against the designated target per weapon damage die.
This would allow for the action economy to be shifted to Summoner or Eidolon movement, similar to Rogue Flanking, and creates an extra interaction between the 2 character pair that is wholly unique at this point in the game. In addition, putting more of the emphasis on the Tether aspect could lead to feat suggestions down the line that could manifest the Tether for more combat options. (See the game Astral Chain, where the teher can be used to lockdown targets by encircling in them, or to launch charging foes by pulling it taut as they run past, perhaps could be recreated as a trip or a reaction of some sort here.)
I'll admit, I've been thinking of Astral Chain this whole time. 'v';
This seems fun! There's even precedent for needing to draw lines within the flanking rules. I honestly hope that the devs consider something funky like this that leverages what makes the two unique -- though since more actions would have to be spent on positioning, it would increase the importance of Tandem Move even further (there are already people suggesting it should be baseline, which I don't disagree with), and the extra damage would almost definitely have to be higher to make up for the greater inconsistency.
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I don't think I'd care for something that is going to require me to draw more lines. Seems needlessly complex to me.
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I don't think I'd care for something that is going to require me to draw more lines. Seems needlessly complex to me.
What if we just reword it to be "Select one target within range. As long as your Eidolon would provide that target partial cover, or as long as that target provides partial cover to your eidolon, your damage is boosted"?
Like its effectively the same thing as just checking for Cover, its just that you're trying to line up in this case.
Sidenote, but the original idea was to be able to draw a straight line through the Target's base similar to how Flank worked, but then I realized that that would force the Eidolon to not stand in between the summoner and the opponent, and that seemed wrong.
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Not really interested in a feat tax to enable/disable a basic feature we have right now.so you do not like synthesis?*headpats*
Synthesist is a completely different situation than what we were discussing :3
And I’d like it to be a class path, not just a feat.
Synthesis is a different type of "summoning". So is split HP. It appears to different types of people and different fantasy's.
That said, i agree that having 3 different class paths (shared, synthesis, and split) would be better way to do it than feats.
I can't think of any good names for them though.
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You know you could always just let players pick how HP works without costing a feat. But so many of you are very against even having evolution points because they are "too many choices".
So I don't know anymore.
The problem with the evolution system is balancing it against the feats. If eidolon it will affect the kind and how many feats we have or the power of the class could rise too quickly. Having evolution be tied to feat is better as it a system of power progression already integrated into to system. The way familiar works won't work here as an eidolon is meant to be in combat. If we got evolution points I think we get a lot fewer feats which I think will be a bad thing.