I'm making my first 2e character: a magic-using thief. I don't plan on using magic very offensively--the idea is that he'd use magic to supplement his thievery and backstabbing (e.g., ghost sound, mage hand, invisibility, illusory object, etc.). I would want to sneak attack to inflict damage.
The new Eldritch Trickster doesn't impress me very much, but perhaps I'm missing something. I feel like I'd get more mileage out of using the Thief racket and using either the Wizard or Sorcerer dedication, but I am open to being persuaded.
Some questions:
First, am I on the right path with rackets?
Second, is there a compelling reason to chose Wizard over Sorcerer dedication? I was leaning toward Sorcerer because I'd rather have a higher CHA than INT so that I can use diplomacy and deception more.
Third, which is better for setting up a sneak attack: Tumble Behind or Twin Feint? I'm leaning toward Tumble Behind because I think it'll be easier to land in most instances. There is no MAP for Tumble Behind, and now that attacks of opportunity are more rare I'm less worried about a failed acrobatics check than in 1e. My bonus to hit will be about the same as my tumble check (I think) since they both use the same stat and proficiency bonus, but the tumble check doesn't have MAP.
Any other advice for a magic-supplementing thief would be appreciated.
The Eldritch Trickster is generally better than taking a dedication at level 2. As it is a free feat at level 1 and is literally the same thing. The question is, is there something in another Racket that you really want, and it it worth a level 2 class feat?
I would also suggest you consider the Occult list, as it eschews the blasty arcane spells, but picks up many of the support spells from the Divine list.
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I also see eldritch trickster as pretty lackluster. I would stick to being a thief rogue, especially since you won't be using magic offensively. If having magic at level one is really important to you, you could choose Ancient Elf for your heritage and ancestry or you could take one of the ancestry feats that give you a cantrip.
As for class dedication, I agree with Temperans; wizard is good if you want to conceal spells, yet I think charisma is a better stat than intelligence for a rogue. I would weigh what is most important for you; of course, nothing is stopping you from getting enough int for the wizard dedication and then ignoring int for cha.
Now, for the first level feat, I would be careful of Tumble Behind with attack of opportunity since it still provokes; while all enemies do not have attack of opportunity, I have seen my fair share in Age of Ashes to be wary of them in APs. If you see your character as a dual wielder, twin feint works, but I think making enemies flat-footed is generally easy, especially if you are good at feinting (I had a 14 charisma rogue making enemies flat-footed quite often) or have melee allies.
Thank you for the suggestions.
I like the Thief racket because it permits dex-to-damage. The other big benefit to Eldritch Trickster racket is the Magical Trickster feat, but I don't plan on sneak attacking with damaging spells, so that won't do much for me.
I hadn't considered the silent spell feat, so perhaps that's a reason to go Wizard over Sorcerer.
Narxiso, are you saying that neither Tumble Behind nor Twin Feint are very helpful? I guess I'm still used to 1e where catching someone flat-footed is somewhat difficult.
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They are both useful; they just aren't necessary. If you are going to go wizard, then they both will be more useful as a means to make the enemy flatfooted, as your investments into charisma will be lower when you need Int for wizard dedication. Honestly, I have had no problem getting enemies flat-footed, but that may depend on your group makeup and tactics. Out of the two, I would go with twin feint if you plan to stay in melee and limit your movement so that you can feint and then twin feint, which would give you the opportunity for two sneak attacks. I would go with tumble behind if you have no means to flank and decide on wizard dedication. Otherwise, I would choose another feat, like trapfinder or nimble dodge.
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Thank you for the suggestions.
I like the Thief racket because it permits dex-to-damage. The other big benefit to Eldritch Trickster racket is the Magical Trickster feat, but I don't plan on sneak attacking with damaging spells, so that won't do much for me.
I hadn't considered the silent spell feat, so perhaps that's a reason to go Wizard over Sorcerer.
Narxiso, are you saying that neither Tumble Behind nor Twin Feint are very helpful? I guess I'm still used to 1e where catching someone flat-footed is somewhat difficult.
**** This post just kept getting longer and longer as I wrote it -- sorry about that!
Magical Trickster isn't much of a benefit in the Eldritch Trickster racket - you can still take it as a 4th level class feat. The racket only lets you take it 2 levels earlier at 2nd level. It really comes down to whether you'd rather get a free class feat (spellcasting dedication feat) OR Dex for damage.
ON SPELLCASTING CLASS - Wizard/Witch (prepared casters) versus Sorceror/Bard (spontaneous casters) -
If you want to be able to cast the same spells over and over I guess Sorcerer/Bard's spontaneous casting is good. In other words, you might have 2 spells in your repertoire and 2 spell slots, and you can cast either spell twice, or both once each. Some like this. Sorcerer/Bard require CHA 14, which fits better with your feinting.
If you want to select just the right spells that you need each day (maybe a 2nd level longstrider one day and a knock another day), then Wizard/Witch's prepared casting is good. Note that if you're not going to take the "Breadth" feat, then I'd definitely go prepared since you only have 1 slot per level, so you might as well be able to change the spell each day. Wizard/Witch require INT 14, not helpful for feinting.
ON SPELLCASTING FEATS - If you take the Dedication + 3 spellcasting + Breadth, you've put 5 of your 11 class feats into spellcasting (4 with Eldritch Trickster OR Ancient Elf). That leaves you 6 class feats.
Wizard: Locked into Arcane tradition. Silent Spell is a 4th Level Wizard feat (also has Conceal Spell as a 2nd Level Wizard feat), so will cost you TWO more Rogue class feats to get, and you may have to wait until Level 10. You need to take Basic Arcana, then you can take Advanced Arcana (Silent Spell), but must be Rogue Level 8 to do so. The Wizard's Breadth feat is Level 8 too, so either you delay that to Rogue Level 10, or you delay the Silent Spell. Now you're down to just 4 rogue class feats.
Witch: Technically can get any of the 4 traditions. Doesn't have Silent Spell (but does have Conceal Spell at 2nd Level), but you can get an animal companion and UNLIMITED focus spell healing by taking Basic Witchraft (Basic Lesson [Lesson Of Life]). Costs you a Rogue Class feat, so you'd be down to 5 Rogue Class feats.
Sorcerer: Can get any of the 4 traditions. Doesn't have Silent Spell (or Conceal Spell). So you still have all 6 of your remaining Rogue Class feats.
Bard: Locked into Occult tradition (which is a good one to have). Doesn't have Silent Spell or Conceal Spell, but does have Melodious Spell (but like Silent Spell, this eats up two Rogue Class feats and requires level 8). Like witch, you can get unlimited focus spell healing with Basic Muse's Whispers (Hymn of Healing)*. There's also an 8th level feat to get inspire courage if that floats your boat.
* Curiously, the Hymn of Healing Bard Class Feat does not say it gives you a focus point (or focus pool), but also doesn't require that you have a focus pool. For reasons explained elsewhere, I think the APG Bard focus spell feats all have typos and need errata. I am assuming Hymn of Healing gives you 1 point in your focus pool... you'll need to ask your GM (subject to any future errata).
FEINTING - Me. personally, I'm not keen on the feinting, BUT I'd point out that retraining is baked into 2E, so you can use the feint feats at low levels, then retrain out of them later if they aren't working for you. I like Gang Up at 6th level, and Slystriker for those times when you can't seem to get the opponents flat-footed, but that's just me - there's more than one way to build a rogue!
Some really good point by Capt Zoom. Just wanted to pick up on this point.
ON SPELLCASTING FEATS - If you take the Dedication + 3 spellcasting + Breadth, you've put 5 of your 11 class feats into spellcasting (4 with Eldritch Trickster OR Ancient Elf). That leaves you 6...
While up front, the Dex to damage seems nice for the Thief Racket, it's not really that much more damage. For a human Rogue, you could have a starting array that looks like this:
Str 14 Dex 18 Con 12 Int/Wis/Cha 14/10/10 (interchangeable depending on tradition you choose)That means at level 1 you get 2 more damage per strike. Is two damage worth a second level feat? Maybe?
By level 10 your stats look like this:
Str 18 Dex 20 Con 16 Int/Wis/Cha 16/12/10 (really a lot of flexibility in the mental stats depending on what you want to do).
That means you get +2 damage per hit from levels 1-4, only +1 from levels 5-20. Again, is really only a +1 to damage per hit worth a feat?
Lets look at the level 1-2 feats. You already get one at level 1, so is there something else on this list you may really want?
Nimble Dodge, Overextending Feint, Trap Finder, Tumble Behind, Twin Feint, You're Next, Mobility, Quick Draw, Strong Arm, Underhanded Assault.
All decent to great choices. Quick Draw is good so you have have a free hand to cast and still strike. Mobility to avoid those dreaded Reactions.
Is +1 to damage worth avoiding an AoO? Or turning a hit into a miss with Nimble Dodge? YMMV, but that's my point.
These are all good points. Thank you for the input.
Perhaps I'm over-valuing Dex-to-damage. I'll give that some thought.
Upon first reading, Eldritch Trickster failed to impress. The free (and early) Wiz/Sor dedication feat is nice, but getting the Magical Trickster feat early (but not free) did not seem very important (and even less so for me since I don't plan to use magic offensively). And I think that every rogue probably should use Dex as the key ability score because so many important abilities use that stat, so getting to pick Int or Cha as a key ability doesn't seem helpful. But I suppose the free feat may be better than Dex-to-damage in the long run.
My other build consideration is maximizing my options for taking advantage of a flat-footed foe. What are the best ways to get someone flat-footed ("best"=most likely to succeed in the most situations)?
Twin Feint always works if you have 2 available actions. The target is flat-footed to the second attack (even if you miss the first hit, right?), but that second attack receives the MAP.
Tumble Behind would seem to work frequently. You need to make a successful acrobatics check against target's Reflex DC to make them flat-footed. Probably pretty reliable, but it takes up movement.
Feint also seems reliable if you invest in CHA (hence the idea that Sorcerer might be better than Wizard). It takes an action to make a successful Deception check vs. target's Perception DC. And if you're a Scoundrel, this only gets better.
Of those, I suspect that Tumble Behind would be the most consistently reliable; but I could be mistaken because I haven't played 2e yet. Tumble Behind uses your best stat and a trained skill against an often-weak saving throw. The MAP hurts Twin Feint, and Feint uses a typically weaker stat against Perception DC (which I would guess is typically higher than one's Reflex DC).
Am I reading this correctly? What are your thoughts about what is more reliable?
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Honestly, dex to damage is pretty great early level. It still makes an impact later, but with all the dice from striking, sneak attack, and property runes, it is not as important later levels, despite being nice. I am not really inclined to play any other racket because of the damage boost as well as having the best feat at level 10.
If you just always want ways to get sneak attack, I would go sorcerer, as charisma has the best skills for making enemies flat-footed. At 1, I think twin feint is the most reliable, but that still only makes the enemy flat footed on the second attack. Tumble behind is great because, as you mentioned, it uses dexterity. Bear in mind though, it will only make the enemy flat-footed on the first attack. Twin feint is nice because you can feint first and make the enemy flat footed to all attacks that round; the cost is staying in melee though. For Tumble Behind, the major downside is still enemies with attack of opportunity, as the rogue is squishier than other martials.
Also, feint is nice because the only real investment is in skills, which rogues have a lot of. It can be useful for targeting a perception if the creature's reflex is particularly high. Another way to make an enemy flat-footed is intimidation at level 4, so I think you should invest in that as well. At later levels, you do not really have to worry about making the enemy flat-footed though, as there are so many options: precise debilitations, legendary stealth, and instant opening, not to mention getting flank whenever an ally is next to the enemy with a level 6 feat.
Honestly though, making creatures flat-footed is not difficult at all. In fact, it is the easiest to get, most common condition. I would honestly get Nimble Dodge to use your reaction or trapfinder if you're going to be dungeon diving.
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If you just always want ways to get sneak attack, I would go sorcerer, as charisma has the best skills for making enemies flat-footed.
I agree, but would change this to "Sorcerer OR Bard".
In particular, if you want Occult, Bard offers a lot of secondary options. Both Bard and Sorcerer give the same number of cantrips, spells and skills, but Bard gives you some nice options, like picking up Inspire Courage, unlimited healing with Hymn of Healing, Bardic Lore (Enigma Muse) if you want all lores, Versatile Performance (Polymath Muse) if you want to use Performance skill for Making an Impression AND demoralize checks, and Esoteric Polymath if you want to be able to swap spells in your repertoire. Problem is all these add-ons eat more Rogue Class feats.
Also, if you see your 'rogue" as a sociable type, bard is the social guy!
And you can probably truly pass yourself off as a bard if you need or want to avoid having everyone you meet think you are a rogue. Harder to convince everyone you meet that the armor wearing guy with all the stabbitty stab weapons is really a Sorcerer, but just add a musical instrument or a funny hat and POOF, you're a bard.
OK, so y'all have convinced me to try a human Eldritch Trickster with the Sorcerer dedication.
I get an extra class feat because I chose versatile human. I'm definitely taking Nimble Dodge so that I can have a useful reaction.
I think I'm down to my last decision: should I take Tumble Behind or Twin Feint? I'm leaning toward Tumble Behind, but I'm open to more suggestions.
I may retrain at level 8 and take Gang Up, which seems to be the easiest of them all.
If it helps, my stats are:
STR 14, DEX 18, CON 12, INT 10, WIS 10, CHA 14
Thanks again for the great suggestions!
I think having an open hand for a rogue is very important so I never use twin fient as it requires 2 weapons. That open hand gives so many options such as interact push shove trip grab a ledge the list goes on. I vote tumble through all the way :-)
I'm definitely taking Nimble Dodge so that I can have a useful reaction.
I think I'm down to my last decision: should I take Tumble Behind or Twin Feint? I'm leaning toward Tumble Behind, but I'm open to more suggestions.
Nimble dodge is not really a good feat. OK, so you see you're attacked, you say you nimble dodge, attacker rolls a miss and your reaction is gone.
Both tumble behind and Twin feint offer some advantage: What is the view of your character? Actively trying to deceive the enemy physically (tumble) or mentally (feint)?
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I'm definitely taking Nimble Dodge so that I can have a useful reaction.
I think I'm down to my last decision: should I take Tumble Behind or Twin Feint? I'm leaning toward Tumble Behind, but I'm open to more suggestions.
Nimble dodge is not really a good feat. OK, so you see you're attacked, you say you nimble dodge, attacker rolls a miss and your reaction is gone.
Both tumble behind and Twin feint offer some advantage: What is the view of your character? Actively trying to deceive the enemy physically (tumble) or mentally (feint)?
Nimble dodge is not really a great feat, but as the rogue doesn't have any reactions aside from catching a ledge, a 10% chance that a hit can be changed into a miss or a crit can be downgraded to a hit is better than nothing.
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I may retrain at level 8 and take Gang Up, which seems to be the easiest of them all.
If you mean to retrain one of your Level 1 Class feats, I don't think you can retrain to Gang Up.
Core Rulebook pg. 481 1.1
"When retraining, you generally can’t make choices you couldn’t make when you selected the original option. For instance, you can’t exchange a 2nd-level skill feat for a 4th-level one, or for one that requires prerequisites you didn’t meet at the time you took the original feat. If you don’t remember whether you met the prerequisites at the time, ask your GM to make the call. "
So I don't think you can replace a Level 1 Class Feat with a Level 6 Class feat.
You can however retrain your level 1 for another level 1, and your level 6 with another level 6.I may retrain at level 8 and take Gang Up, which seems to be the easiest of them all.If you mean to retrain one of your Level 1 Class feats, I don't think you can retrain to Gang Up.
Core Rulebook pg. 481 1.1
"When retraining, you generally can’t make choices you couldn’t make when you selected the original option. For instance, you can’t exchange a 2nd-level skill feat for a 4th-level one, or for one that requires prerequisites you didn’t meet at the time you took the original feat. If you don’t remember whether you met the prerequisites at the time, ask your GM to make the call. "
So I don't think you can replace a Level 1 Class Feat with a Level 6 Class feat.
Yes, that's what I meant--when I get Gang Up, I'll likely retrain out of Twin Feint or Tumble Behind and take something like Trap Finder or You're Next. While usable under different circumstances, I feel like Gang Up would become my go-to for making a foe flat-footed, so I likely won't use Tumble Behind or Twin Feint much after that.