So, I'm trying to update a one shot that I used to run in 1st Edition, and I'm struggling with how to update mass zombies and have them still be a threat. Ostensibly, it's meant for 4-6 level 13s - and other than arbitrarily making a bunch of villager zombies super high level, I don't know how to make "The Zombie Horde" a threat, when singular zombies aren't meant to be.
Any thoughts?
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Are you talking about PF1 troops?
You'd build those from scratch using the GMG guidelines based on what level you're aiming for.
"Gaggle of Zombies", a gargantuan monster representing dozens of zombies.
Pick out some abilities that suit.
Low AC, huge h.p., low Reflex
Weakness to slashing, positive energy, & AoEs (maybe splash too).
(So fireballs will really tear these guys up, but that fits.)
Some sort of defense representing them being multiple beings.
Not sure if I'd keep them Slow 1. At that level, a normal PC should have a hard time kiting an enemy.
I'd go with a 2-action attack that targets all adjacent enemies and has Improved Grab.
I might even add a variant of Swallow Whole where the horde drags the person into their midst and gnashes at them. (Plus a disease too, perhaps a fear effect the first time it happens.)
Trample (or Engulf) seem suitable too, swarming over the PCs.
Upon death, they'd burst into a token amount of zombies (more an obstacle than anything). Maybe better if they become difficult terrain instead or if the residual zombies go join their chums in another troop (healing it a bit).
I'd give it an off-turn ability, like an aura (stench), response to damage (bursting rot), or a Reaction (when a person moves adjacent?).
For a surprise maybe give them a stacking ability, as in actually stacking on top of each other to reach higher up when the guy w/ reach flies overhead, thinking he's safe.
At that level, a party knowing they'll face zombies might be too effective unless of course the other enemies contrast well or the situation favors the zombies or the zombies are faster/smarter/effective at range/etc. if that suits the scenario.
Make them like a Gargantuan size "Swarm" and put a mechanic that as the HP gets lower the size of the "Swarm" goes down.
Have you considered perhaps tweaking a Warsworn (Bestiary 323)? Its definitely a sort of swarm of zombies...
I also like the swarm approach here.
Spider swarm: http://2e.aonprd.com/Monsters.aspx?ID=385
That's level 0, and not even zombies, but the template is tried and true and you don't need to mess with it.
Simliar immunities and etc., except of course that you move slashing out of resistance and into weakness.
Have the damage require a fort save to represent how long your strength holds out as all of these creatures are grabbing onto you. On a failed fort save you're grabbed.
From there, you're consulting the GMG for specific numbers. Easy peasy. Whole thing out not to take much longer than 15 minutes.
...dang I like this, and I have an undead adventure coming up for my party. I think I'm gonna do this myself! The alchemist will be thrilled that there's an enemy with weakness to Splash, haha!
The troop/swarm ideas presented are good. If you want to try something different, give them a potent disease or curse aura. If you begin your turn withing the aura, you must save to avoid the zombification disease/curse. Once you have contracted the disease/curse, it remains until removed/cured. As the curse progresses, you take persistent negative energy damage, and become slowed/clumsy/stupified, and eventually die and become a zombie. The aura radius and DC increase based on the number of adjacent zombies.
This could, of course, be combined with the zombie swarm idea.
If you go the swarm route be careful if you have any Divine Caster in the group.
A swarm of undead dis like candy for all those nice Divine blasts.
If you go the swarm route be careful if you have any Divine Caster in the group.
A swarm of undead dis like candy for all those nice Divine blasts.
Staff the enemy w/ a Divine Sorcerer to Counterspell. :)
The could even remain invisible doing it. Bwaa ha ha!ETA: And take See Invisibility to counter that too!
I think it's also important to manage expectations (for yourself, as well as your PCs) of what high level characters are capable of.
High level Pathfinder characters are superheroes. At a certain point - and that point is probably before 13th level - an army of bog-standard zombies simply isn't a threat to them anymore, almost regardless of size.
If you want to tell a zombie-apocalypse story at that level, you have to raise the stakes in some way; maybe the players are trying to protect townsfolk for whom the zombies ARE a threat, and the town is big enough that the players can't be everywhere at once...
For a sufficiently large amount of mooks who are little more than a terrain effect, you could just make the horde a terrain effect. Each square of horde is difficult terrain and entering or beginning your turn in horde does x damage each round, maybe with a Grab effect and disease, and some way to clear out squares and watch them refill.
When I've created quick-and-dirty 'troops' for Pathfinder 2, one of the things I did was give them a higher weakness to area of effect damage than to splash. Splash still does more damage to them (I think I gave Weakness 5 for that to my level 6 troop, but 10 against AoE), but not to the point that low-level bombs are the way to go.
Honestly, I'd make these troops, yes, but I'd make them out of a tougher type of zombie to begin with. Generally, I'm going with the PF1 guideline of a troop being about 5-6 levels above the individual members.
Edit: Also, I highly recommend making their basic attack similar to a swarm's, allowing a basic Reflex save. Add Grab on a failed save, and you can potentially do a version of engulf, or other special abilities they can use while the opponent is grabbed.
You know, I'm not sure I love troops for zombies. I think what makes troops work as a concept is the idea that the troop has specifically trained to work together to be able to take down stronger foes. I don't think mindless undead can achieve that level of teamwork.
Mm... I think I disagree, Captain Morgan. The goblin troop from PF1 seems to subvert that, as do bandits. I see a troop as a type of swarm. It can be a smaller number of disciplined soldiers, or a mass of creatures that just try to kill the PCs, or even one of the animal Stampedes from way back in 3.5 (I think those were in the DMG 2?).
I think the abilities you give the creature make the biggest difference in theme.
You know, I'm not sure I love troops for zombies. I think what makes troops work as a concept is the idea that the troop has specifically trained to work together to be able to take down stronger foes. I don't think mindless undead can achieve that level of teamwork.
Their senses/essences could be linked (perhaps via the force animating them). They might have an outside mind controlling them or perhaps a hive mind, some greater spirit animating them all.
A "Hive Zombie Horde" seeking to grow by adding corpses.Cydeth, I think for PF1, the level advice was due to the system building ground up. For PF2, a GM would circumvent that by building abilities to suit the new level, like "Rabid Engulf" or "Plague Aura" or whatever other nasty idea one had.
You know, I'm not sure I love troops for zombies. I think what makes troops work as a concept is the idea that the troop has specifically trained to work together to be able to take down stronger foes. I don't think mindless undead can achieve that level of teamwork.Their senses/essences could be linked (perhaps via the force animating them). They might have an outside mind controlling them or perhaps a hive mind, some greater spirit animating them all.
A "Hive Zombie Horde" seeking to grow by adding corpses.Cydeth, I think for PF1, the level advice was due to the system building ground up. For PF2, a GM would circumvent that by building abilities to suit the new level, like "Rabid Engulf" or "Plague Aura" or whatever other nasty idea one had.
I feel like you're beginning to describe a Warsworn as presented in the Bestiary, maybe minus the Telekinetic abilities ;)
Cydeth, I think for PF1, the level advice was due to the system building ground up. For PF2, a GM would circumvent that by building abilities to suit the new level, like "Rabid Engulf" or "Plague Aura" or whatever other nasty idea one had.
Oh, of course you can! I didn't mean to say you can't or shouldn't, it's more that I think that if you're making the troop 'from' a lower-level creature it's something to keep in mind. I made a troop out of level 2 fighters, and I felt that making it too high level would have hurt thematically.
On the other hand, just as an example of what I might do, the OP is looking for opponents for a... level 13 party? Alright, that gives a good benchmark.
Looking in the GMG, I'm thinking that I'd aim for a Boss and Lackeys (one Level +2, four level-4), which is a Severe encounter. So, let's say we built a Level 15 divine necromancer, and he has his bodyguards, a vampire sorcerer and mummy fighter, both of them level 9. However, to fill out the fight we have his Zombie Horde. To make it clear that these are his strongest creatures he's throwing at the PCs, we say that these hordes (level 9) are made up of plague zombies and zombie brutes that are packed together like a rolling tide of undeath, and worse, the necromancer can use his AOE harm to heal his allies and hurt the PCs. I think it's a lot more thematic of an encounter than four powerful undead, or even the older-style hordes of utterly useless minions (though admittedly, the shambling hordes will likely die very quickly to a level 13 party... but that will be even more satisfying, IMO).
Anyway, I like a balance of verisimilitude, and seeing how far I've come, so the idea of fighting entire swarms of enemies that could maul me at level 1 is satisfying.
You know, I'm not sure I love troops for zombies. I think what makes troops work as a concept is the idea that the troop has specifically trained to work together to be able to take down stronger foes. I don't think mindless undead can achieve that level of teamwork.
FWIW, there is a 1e AP that at one point has an encounter with a couple troops of zombies.
I believe they are juju zombies, but they still definitely aren't "trained to work together".
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Cydeth and Max: Yeah, I still don't love it for PF2. Partially because level matters more. In PF1 you could always hit on a natural 20 (I think, at least that is how we played it) and the troop made for a decent representation of having a couple dozen enemies full attacking and getting a few 20s. In PF2, you eventually hit a point where a bar 20 missed. Granted, that's like a 12 level difference at least, which does leave a lot of room in the middle. But I'm still not sure I like it.
This is purely a matter of personal taste though. If you like the idea of zombie troops, have at it. Cydeth outlined a good way to do it.
Cydeth and Max: Yeah, I still don't love it for PF2. Partially because level matters more. In PF1 you could always hit on a natural 20 (I think, at least that is how we played it) and the troop made for a decent representation of having a couple dozen enemies full attacking and getting a few 20s. In PF2, you eventually hit a point where a bar 20 missed. Granted, that's like a 12 level difference at least, which does leave a lot of room in the middle. But I'm still not sure I like it.
This is purely a matter of personal taste though. If you like the idea of zombie troops, have at it. Cydeth outlined a good way to do it.
Before I say anything else, I want to say that I totally acknowledge that your preference is valid. What feels right to one person, doesn't necessarily make it feel right for someone else.
Now, regarding the math, I was curious and decided to check where a natural 20 would no longer hit an enemy for a level -1 creature. Looking at the GMG tables (using moderate AC and Attack bonuses), on a nat 20 a level -1 gets a 26. Because it increases the success level by a step, that means it can hit anything with an AC 36 or less. On the AC chart (which I'll acknowledge doesn't necessarily map to PCs, but I didn't feel like trying to figure out the average AC of a level 13 PC), a level 15 creature has a 36 AC. This means it'd need to be a level 16 creature, or have better than Moderate AC, to completely negate a level -1 creature's attack.
However, assuming we pattern the zombie horde's attacks off other swarms, it's going to be a basic Reflex save to avoid damage. Going off my earlier example of a level 9 zombie horde and a level 13 creature, I'd guess that the Reflex DC would be 25 or 28 (moderate or high on the Spell DC chart), while a level 13 creature would have a moderate save of +23. To me, that maps pretty well to a huge number of low-level creatures getting the occasional natural 20.
As always, mileage may vary between people, though.
I don't see an issue with making them higher level, a uniquely potent necromancer (like a dracolich), or some plaque that's never been seen before makes super zombies. If you make a good story hook then it won't feel arbitrary.
They just need to be within 10 or so levels of the group to still be able to hit, you could also make it so flanking stacks, get 6 zombies on you and that's -6ac.