PF1e vs 2e - Potions & Scrolls

[Jader7777]

So I was going over my current campaign that's soon to move to PF2e and I noticed that a lot has changed for gold cost, however one thing has caused me a great deal of irritation has been that potions and scrolls basically cost the same as you can see in this side by side comparison!

So my question is, how come my fighters baby bottle is now the same price as the wizards quadratic formula? Potions are basically better than scrolls as far as who can use them (anyone) with no skills required.

Is there something about PF2e's gold/item cost that I'm not understanding? Please point it out for me.

[WatersLethe]

Potions are no longer spells in a bottle.

[FowlJ]

If the problem is that potions cost a similar amount to a scroll of the same level, it's worth considering that potions aren't spells-in-a-bottle and their effects are not necessarily equivalent to that of a scroll.

For instance, a Minor Healing Potion is the same level and cost as a level 1 Spell Scroll containing Heal, but the potion only ever heals 1d8 HP while the scroll can heal 1d8 for 1 action, 1d8+8 at 30 feet for 2 actions, or 1d8 to all creatures within 30 feet for 3 actions. Higher tier healing potions are similarly behind comparable spell scrolls (actually to an even greater degree later on).

I don't know how all potions compare to the most similar spells, but generally speaking instead of having the same effect for a greater cost they now have a lesser effect for a similar cost, compared to how they worked in PF1. That is, the ones that are most like spells to begin with, at least.

[Garretmander]

Jader7777 wrote:

So I was going over my current campaign that's soon to move to PF2e and I noticed that a lot has changed for gold cost, however one thing has caused me a great deal of irritation has been that potions and scrolls basically cost the same as you can see in this side by side comparison!

So my question is, how come my fighters baby bottle is now the same price as the wizards quadratic formula? Potions are basically better than scrolls as far as who can use them (anyone) with no skills required.

Is there something about PF2e's gold/item cost that I'm not understanding? Please point it out for me.

As someone who largely ignored potions in PF1 other than 'hey emergency fighter backup', what was their price scaling in PF1?

[Jader7777]

Garretmander wrote:

As someone who largely ignored potions in PF1 other than 'hey emergency fighter backup', what was their price scaling in PF1?

Click the "in this side by side comparison!" text in the first post.

[Mathmuse]

Let me compare two potions that can be brewed at different levels and resemble spells to the scrolls of the spells they resemble.

HEALING POTION ITEM 1+
CONSUMABLE HEALING MAGICAL NECROMANCY POTION
Usage held in 1 hand; Bulk L
Activate [one-action] Interact
A healing potion is a vial of a ruby-red liquid that imparts a tingling sensation as the drinker’s wounds heal rapidly. When you drink a healing potion, you regain the listed number of Hit Points.
Type minor; Level 1; Price 4 gp
The potion restores 1d8 Hit Points.
Type lesser; Level 3; Price 12 gp
The potion restores 2d8+5 Hit Points.
Type moderate; Level 6; Price 50 gp
The potion restores 3d8+10 Hit Points.
Type greater; Level 12; Price 400 gp
The potion restores 6d8+20 Hit Points.
Type major; Level 18; Price 5,000 gp
The potion restores 8d8+30 Hit Points.

A 1st level Heal spell heals 1d8 or 1d8+8 or 1d8 on several subjects, depending on how it is cast. When heightened (+1) The amount of healing or damage increases by 1d8, and the extra healing for the 2-action version increases by 8.

The potion and scroll do match at item levels 1 and 3. But to heal 3d8+10 hit points, use either a 5th-level scroll of 3rd-level Heal, costing 30 gp, or use a 6th-level moderate Healing Potion, costing 50 gp. To heal 6d8+20 hit points, use either an 11th-level scroll of 6th-level Heal, costing 300 gp, or use a 12th-level greater Healing Potion, costing 400 gp. To heal 8d8+30 hit points, use either a 15th-level scroll of 8th-level Heal, costing 1300 gp, or use an 18th-level major Healing potion costing 5000 gp.

POTION OF RESISTANCE ITEM 6+
ABJURATION CONSUMABLE MAGICAL POTION
Usage held in 1 hand; Bulk L
Activate [one-action] Interact
Drinking this thick, fortifying potion grants resistance
against a single damage type for 1 hour. Each potion
of resistance is created to defend against acid, cold,
electricity, fire, or sonic damage (and is called a
lesser potion of fire resistance or the like).
Type lesser; Level 6; Price 45 gp
You gain resistance 5 to the appropriate energy type.
Type moderate; Level 10; Price 180 gp
You gain resistance 10 to the appropriate energy type.
Type greater; Level 14; Price 850 gp
You gain resistance 15 to the appropriate energy type.

Resist Energy spell
2nd level: resistance 5. 3rd-level scroll costs 12 gp. Lesser potion costs 45 gp.
4th level: resistance 10 and targets two. 7th-level scroll costs 70 gp. Moderate potion costs 180 gp.
7th level: resistance 15 and targets five. 13th-level scroll costs 600 gp. Greater potion costs 850 gp.

[Temperans]

Mathematically.

Base PF1 Scrolls: 25* Spell level* Level of caster. Min: 25 gp. Max: 4,500 gp.

Base PF1 Potions: 50* Spell level (max level 3)* Level of caster. Min: 50 gp. Max: 3,000 gp.

PF2 Scrolls and Potions doesnt appear to follow a simple formula, but the values are definetly growing exponentially (Price roughly doubles every level). However of note, is that potions dont have a spell level limit anymore, largely because as previously stated they are less "spells on a can" and more "effect on a can".

[Ediwir]

You also are not accounting for proportional wealth scaling when looking at pf1. Yes, numbers of costs might look similar, but the money available is wildly different, as characters get much wealthier in pf2 (but also face larger expenses).

The value of a potion, additionally, isn’t entirely reliant on the effect, but also in its low versatility and high usability. In other terms, since there is no real effect of reference, potions can have arbitrary values that are fitting their restrictions.

[Gorbacz]

Comparing anything PF1 and PF2 side by side makes little sense. Different math, different underlying desing assumptions, different economy. These are two different (but similar in some general terms) games.

[Zapp]

It's best to measure cost in levels, not in gold pieces.

That makes for a much easier comparison, that likely is much more accurate .

In PF2 it's possible to have enough money to buy an item at your level, but you can't count on it. You can count on being able to purchase an item below your level though, assuming settlement size doesn't throw a spanner in the works.

This concerns permanent items. You get four consumables for the price of one permanent (which is a significant departure of its own compared to PF1).

[Zapp]

Jader7777 wrote:

So I was going over my current campaign that's soon to move to PF2e and I noticed that a lot has changed for gold cost, however one thing has caused me a great deal of irritation has been that potions and scrolls basically cost the same as you can see in this side by side comparison!

So my question is, how come my fighters baby bottle is now the same price as the wizards quadratic formula? Potions are basically better than scrolls as far as who can use them (anyone) with no skills required.

Is there something about PF2e's gold/item cost that I'm not understanding? Please point it out for me.

Your assumption, that the same effect is available both as a scroll and a potion for the same cost, simply isn't true.

In PF2 two items of the same level are supposed to be of (roughly) equal worth.

I realize you're arguing a given effect should cost more if it can be used by anyone, with no restriction on class etc.

But if you actually look at the treasure tables you will likely find that to be the case. It's just that there isn't generic potions that mimic spells any longer.

Of course, if you want to bring up a specific potion you feel is under- or overpriced compared to what a scroll can do, you're welcome.

But we can't have a general discussion because that's just not how the game works.

[Ediwir]

I mean, there is such an example. Scrolls of Haste and potions of Quickness.

Guess which one costs more.

[Themetricsystem]

Ediwir wrote:

I mean, there is such an example. Scrolls of Haste and potions of Quickness.

Guess which one costs more.

Probably the one can be activated in fewer actions by any creature that is:

1) Conscious
2) Unrestrained
3) Thirsty

[Zapp]

Themetricsystem wrote:

Ediwir wrote:

I mean, there is such an example. Scrolls of Haste and potions of Quickness.

Guess which one costs more.

Probably

Potion of Quickness is a level 8 consumable.

A scroll of Haste cast as a 3rd level spell is a level 5 consumable.