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So like, my understanding from live streams is that Kyonin was supposed to be CG hippie elf land of "heeey let's share our culture and technology and others to needy" but in practice ever since Second Darkness its been LN isolationist country even in 2e(Like Age of Ashes details on elf gates doesn't really sound like elves were ever keen on sharing them)
I'm kinda wondering if there will ever be setting book or adventure (or second darkness remake) that fixes it and make Kyonin match its overall alignment better?
Why would you think “why don’t they retcon it to be Chaotic” instead if “why don’t they follow all the published material and make it Lawful?”
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Not wanting to share your secrets isn't necessarily Lawful. Or even non-Good if we're talking something like the Elf Gates that has uses both positive and negative (if we were talking medical technology/magic that would be another matter entirely).
I mean, the network in AoA is being used for the international slave trade when the PCs step in, not wanting slave traders to have that tech seems pretty CG to me, and giving it to everyone inevitably includes those who'll misuse it.
Heck, it's even arguable that isolationism in general is a reasonable policy regardless of Alignment given their whole 'we have a Demon Lord trapped here' thing. Keeping people out is pretty arguable as for their own good, from that perspective.
Which is not to say that Kyonin's portrayal is particularly CG in PF1 (it isn't), but I don't think anything in PF2 has gone against it as of yet.
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Heck, it's even arguable that isolationism in general is a reasonable policy regardless of Alignment given their whole 'we have a Demon Lord trapped here' thing. Keeping people out is pretty arguable as for their own good, from that perspective.
Tanglebriar is not part of Kyonin unless you're only looking at lines on the map describing the latter's claimed territory. In which case most of the River Kingdoms are part of Kyonin, a conclusion which is patently absurd. And describing Treerazer as either a "demon lord" or "trapped" is extremely generous.
And no, isolationism is not reasonable even in that case. If you're too chickenshit to deal with your problems, better to invite outsiders to do it instead of letting them fester, even at the price of your sovereignty. Ex-Mendevian crusaders, Maagambyans, and Ekujae might very well run the country better than its current leadership, and good riddance.
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IMO Chaotic Good maybe benevolent, but benevolence takes a lot of forms. Patronizing as it might seem; the elves might see 'sharing' some magic akin to leaving a firearm in an orphanage full of snot nosed kids. Heck, elves might even fear that their culture might naturally dominate those of shorter lived races and lean isolationist in a kind of 'Pointy ears Prime Directive' meant to give the weaker cultures time to evolve and catch up.
Individual non-elves might be worthy of trust and playing with the big magics while Nations and other whole institutions are distrusted. Elves trust persons, not peoples if that makes sense?
At least that's a possible take.
But with a Lich soon to rise up again (100 years is soon), and with the kids err... non elves having proven to be a bit more mature than the elves thought (World Wound success), a lot of elves now re-evaluate. And generously are more willing to openly be the stellar role models the non-elves need.
IMO- Arrogance can fit any alignment ;)
I've been interpreting the Chaotic of Golarion elves as a kind of Libertarian "I do my thing, you do yours", "you don't mess with me, I don't mess with you". Even if an elf (in their Good-ness) wanted to help another nation, there's no structure to allow them to force any other elves to help, not even the so-called monarch has that power.
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I feel like "Alignment" an "Attitude towards outsiders" are kind of on perpendicular axes.
Kyonin is CG as concerns the in-group but is xenophobic structurally.
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Tanglebriar is not part of Kyonin unless you're only looking at lines on the map describing the latter's claimed territory. In which case most of the River Kingdoms are part of Kyonin, a conclusion which is patently absurd.
Tanglebriar is an area adjacent to Kyonin that can be accessed only via Kyonin and the Five Kings Mountains (which are not exactly traveler friendly either). Keeping people out of Kyonin so they can't go through it to the Tanglebriar is extreme, but not entirely unjustifiable.
Which was my whole point, really.
And describing Treerazer as either a "demon lord" or "trapped" is extremely generous.
Calling him trapped isn't an exaggeration at all. He wants more territory than he has and has not managed to get it, as Kyonin is in the way and actively stopping him. In the same sense you're trapped in a room if someone with a sword is blocking your way out, he is trapped.
Calling him a demon lord is a very slight exaggeration, but only very slight. He's a Level 25 Nascent Demon Lord (a single level below true Demon Lord status) and can provide spells to worshipers.
And no, isolationism is not reasonable even in that case. If you're too chickenshit to deal with your problems, better to invite outsiders to do it instead of letting them fester, even at the price of your sovereignty. Ex-Mendevian crusaders, Maagambyans, and Ekujae might very well run the country better than its current leadership, and good riddance.
Uh...firstly, they've been doing a decent job of keeping Treerazer penned up. There are certainly issues with the Kyonin government, but 'not handling' that particular problem isn't really one of them. They haven't successfully killed him, but that's not quite the same thing.
Secondly, they've explicitly been recruiting Mendevian crusaders to help with the issue, as many as they can get, so complaining they aren't doing that is just silly.
I've been interpreting the Chaotic of Golarion elves as a kind of Libertarian "I do my thing, you do yours", "you don't mess with me, I don't mess with you". Even if an elf (in their Good-ness) wanted to help another nation, there's no structure to allow them to force any other elves to help, not even the so-called monarch has that power.
This is more or less exactly the attitude taken by the Lost Omens World Guide.
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Tanglebriar is an area adjacent to Kyonin that can be accessed only via Kyonin and the Five Kings Mountains (which are not exactly traveler friendly either). Keeping people out of Kyonin so they can't go through it to the Tanglebriar is extreme, but not entirely unjustifiable.
Which was my whole point, really.
Kyonin doesn't keep its borders closed to keep people out of Tanglebriar, it keeps its borders closed to keep its cities racially pure. Explicitly.
Calling him trapped isn't an exaggeration at all. He wants more territory than he has and has not managed to get it, as Kyonin is in the way and actively stopping him. In the same sense you're trapped in a room if someone with a sword is blocking your way out, he is trapped.
It is most certainly not actively stopping him. It has no means of doing so. That he hasn't reached the Sovyrian Stone yet must be due to some other reason.
Secondly, they've explicitly been recruiting Mendevian crusaders to help with the issue, as many as they can get, so complaining they aren't doing that is just silly.
Their government hasn't given up its sovereignty to outsiders yet, which it ought to given its repeated and constitutional failure.
Kyonin is internally CG. Its people are nice to each other and let them live their lives essentially as they want, within reasonable boundaries.
Compare Molthune, which is regimented, militaristic, legalistic, slave-owning and highly structured. That's LN.
How each nation treats others is beside the point.
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Tanglebriar is an area adjacent to Kyonin that can be accessed only via Kyonin and the Five Kings Mountains (which are not exactly traveler friendly either). Keeping people out of Kyonin so they can't go through it to the Tanglebriar is extreme, but not entirely unjustifiable.
Which was my whole point, really.
Kyonin doesn't keep its borders closed to keep people out of Tanglebriar, it keeps its borders closed to keep its cities racially pure. Explicitly.
Calling him trapped isn't an exaggeration at all. He wants more territory than he has and has not managed to get it, as Kyonin is in the way and actively stopping him. In the same sense you're trapped in a room if someone with a sword is blocking your way out, he is trapped.It is most certainly not actively stopping him. It has no means of doing so. That he hasn't reached the Sovyrian Stone yet must be due to some other reason.
Secondly, they've explicitly been recruiting Mendevian crusaders to help with the issue, as many as they can get, so complaining they aren't doing that is just silly.Their government hasn't given up its sovereignty to outsiders yet, which it ought to given its repeated and constitutional failure.
Got any receipts for these?
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Kyonin doesn't keep its borders closed to keep people out of Tanglebriar, it keeps its borders closed to keep its cities racially pure. Explicitly.
In PF1, yes. At least partially. This is not yet true in PF2, and may well either be retconned, or more likely have been due to the Winter Council, a body that no longer exists.
It is most certainly not actively stopping him. It has no means of doing so. That he hasn't reached the Sovyrian Stone yet must be due to some other reason.
Yes they are. Explicitly and repeatedly according to the actual canonical sources. You thinking they don't have the resources to stop him is thus a clear error on your part.
Their government hasn't given up its sovereignty to outsiders yet, which it ought to given its repeated and constitutional failure.
What repeated and constitutional failure? And who would they give it up to? The Mendevian Crusade didn't directly succeed either, they just kept things at bay until some demigods (ie: the WotR PCs) arrived to do it for them. That's not a better success rate, and they have less familiarity with the terrain and less manpower.
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In PF1, yes. At least partially. This is not yet true in PF2, and may well either be retconned, or more likely have been due to the Winter Council, a body that no longer exists.
That which was true in 1E setting material doesn't stop being true in 2E setting material until it is contradicted. In just the same way, older setting material in 1E was not obviated by newer setting material that didn't mention things mentioned in older material. And racial exclusion was presented as both state policy and popular, not merely the programme of a shadow cabal. It was supposed to establish Kyonin as a safe space for the still-too-small population of Sovyrian elves, to keep them from being overwhelmed by surrounding peoples and integrated into modernity. Well, good riddance. History is impatient.
Yes they are. Explicitly and repeatedly according to the actual canonical sources. You thinking they don't have the resources to stop him is thus a clear error on your part.
Or what is more likely, it is error or propaganda or obfuscation on the sources' part. We know a few things about Kyonin and Treerazer in the present and near past. We know Treerazer had a CR of 25 in 1E, and we know that as of Second Darkness, Kyonin could rely on no heroes of that caliber, because they needed to rely on outsiders (of far lesser caliber) to address the Winter Council and the drow. The Winter Council itself was working against Treerazer, and its members were universally presented as weaker than him and ultimately doomed against his forces. It must therefore be true that Kyonin is a paper tiger and that Treerazer has been kept from his goals by something other than the military force of elvendom. The alternative is simply unbelievable.
What repeated and constitutional failure? And who would they give it up to? The Mendevian Crusade didn't directly succeed either, they just kept things at bay until some demigods (ie: the WotR PCs) arrived to do it for them. That's not a better success rate, and they have less familiarity with the terrain and less manpower.
Failure to defend its territory, and failure to reform in the face of modern conditions. Both are consequences of the foundational bases and structures of the state, and can only be remedied by revolution (of which Sovyrian elvendom, as a historically outmoded people, is incapable) or supercession. The best option would be to cede sovereignty to Ekujae leadership, who did not abandon Golarion like the cowards who currently populate Kyonin, who unlike the Kyonin state have a track record of fighting demons with actual success, and who unlike the Sovyrian peoples never produced drow.
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That which was true in 1E setting material doesn't stop being true in 2E setting material until it is contradicted. In just the same way, older setting material in 1E was not obviated by newer setting material that didn't mention things mentioned in older material. And racial exclusion was presented as both state policy and popular, not merely the programme of a shadow cabal. It was supposed to establish Kyonin as a safe space for the still-too-small population of Sovyrian elves, to keep them from being overwhelmed by surrounding peoples and integrated into modernity. Well, good riddance. History is impatient.
This is a very specific way of looking at canon, especially canon the people at Paizo have said was a mistake in the first place. Assuming that things haven't changed when there's several textual implications that they have (read the LoWG, it makes specific references to them not being as xenophobic as all that) and the people in charge of the creative direction of the game clearly want them to change, strikes me as a short sighted policy.
Or what is more likely, it is error or propaganda or obfuscation on the sources' part. We know a few things about Kyonin and Treerazer in the present and near past. We know Treerazer had a CR of 25 in 1E, and we know that as of Second Darkness, Kyonin could rely on no heroes of that caliber, because they needed to rely on outsiders (of far lesser caliber) to address the Winter Council and the drow. The Winter Council itself was working against Treerazer, and its members were universally presented as weaker than him and ultimately doomed against his forces. It must therefore be true that Kyonin is a paper tiger and that Treerazer has been kept from his goals by something other than the military force of elvendom. The alternative is simply unbelievable.
No, it isn't. It's possible that they have some specific magic (like Mendev's wardstones) binding Treerazer specifically, or that their high level people are too busy actively fighting him to deal with the Drow, or a host of other possibilities.
But explicit OOC sources say they're keeping him contained. So they are. Indeed, ignoring the text saying this after claiming above that the canon can't change until directly contradicted in text is weirdly inconsistent of you.
Failure to defend its territory, and failure to reform in the face of modern conditions. Both are consequences of the foundational bases and structures of the state, and can only be remedied by revolution (of which Sovyrian elvendom, as a historically outmoded people, is incapable) or supercession. The best option would be to cede sovereignty to Ekujae leadership, who did not abandon Golarion like the cowards who currently populate Kyonin, who unlike the Kyonin state have a track record of fighting demons with actual success, and who unlike the Sovyrian peoples never produced drow.
They've successfully defended their territory and adapted to prevailing conditions very successfully going by the actual text. I have yet to hear any actual textual references from you contradicting this, just statements lacking support beyond your own assumptions.
Which, again, is deeply odd given your insistence on the importance of direct textual evidence in your first point.
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Given the ways the elves of Kyonin were being handled even by relatively late in PF1 (that "River Sellen" article in Strange Aeons was... yeah) despite repeated statements that no, these weren't the Dragonlance elves everyone seemed to think they were, I'd actually argue that more current sources are also more accurate sources... explicitly. By design.
And when it comes to broad societal notes, PF2 has been quite clear about Kyonin- they don't share their perfect long-range teleport tech with every rando who comes along, since, besides the abuses the network can be put to, there's also the bit
As far as keeping people out... well. Recall that elves who live among more mayfly species are called "Forlorn" for a reason.
Now flip that on its head. Imagine you're moving into a neighborhood where the youngest couple on your block have been canoodling since before your grandfather was born.
So you move in. You have a few kids. They outgrow their childhood playmates at an alarming rate. They outgrow their adolescent peers at an alarming rate. They maybe sire or bear a couple of half-elves courtesy of some free love, elf style, but they age much faster than their partner in those escapades, making a stable family life tricky.
By the time you're a grandparent (of a half-elf or just regular human kids, which your children had with the only people they seem to be able to mature at a comparable rate to), none of your neighbors have visibly aged- at least, not that you notice. By the time you're using a cane to walk and forgetting where you left your glasses, everyone around you... looks more or less like they did the day you got there. The guy you used to hoist pints and eyeball the local girls with? He's still doing that... and eyeballing the same local girls. Your grandson is in your old chair.
I'm sure there are communities of other ancestries within Kyonin who roll with it, but let's not pretend that anyone is going to be knocking down the gates to move into that situation... especially given how depressed some people get just by seeing their friends having kids and realizing how old they're getting in real life!