We've always been really bad at hero points (and inspiration in 5e) and I don't really like how they're supposed to be distributed, nor how they're a session mechanic, I happened to have this idea while brainstorming for how fate works (like the fiction of it) in my setting the other day and I want to run it by people.
I'm considering a model where hero points are replaced by fate points, which are the same thing, except that you get a number of them equal to
A) Half your Charisma Mod Rounded Up (Minimum of 0)
B) Your Charisma Modifier
You would be able to have more than 3 (the highest modifier you could get to is 7) but they would restore on daily preparation, so its possible that whatever number you have would have to last for a number of sessions until you get to rest again (as opposed to refreshing to 1 every session.)
Of course, one concern is that some players are gonna have way too many hero points for short adventuring days.
Notes:
1) Not interested in defenses of the base hero point system, we've already playtested it, and it *will* just fall by the wayside for us.
2) It's charisma because Charisma is the only stat that doesn't have generic benefits hanging off it, Dex, Wis, and Con are all defenses, Strength has bulk, armor, etc Int gives anyone who invests in it extra skills and a way to earn income. I know that charisma has space to be buffed from the "balanced ability scores" variant in the GMG which gives it Will as a defense, and the existence of Resonance as a generic mechanic in the playtest that wasn't replaced with anything.
I don't know, hero/inspiration/fate points are basically luck points (like halflings may have) but based on metagame, is a free pass to avoid some unluck rolls for the players that make most heroic acts.
So I'm agree thats a strange point system that forces the players to do a much specific acting that is act like a hero. So normally I change it to work as reward for players that do the best performance based in their chars personalities.
But if you want to use it as luck/fate atribute (like some games like Ragnarok Online does) the best way you can do it is like a focus magic. Recovering all 3 fate/luck points per day or per 10min refocus (for me per day make more sense).
I don't like the idea to attach it to Cha, that would tie luck to personality, is not make much sense for me (unless if the char are a weasel 😂)
I don't know, hero/inspiration/fate points are basically luck points (like halflings may have) but based on metagame, is a free pass to avoid some unluck rolls for the players that make most heroic acts.
So I'm agree thats a strange point system that forces the players to do a much specific acting that is act like a hero. So normally I change it to work as reward for players that do the best performance based in their chars personalities.
But if you want to use it as luck/fate atribute (like some games like Ragnarok Online does) the best way you can do it is like a focus magic. Recovering all 3 fate/luck points per day or per 10min refocus (for me per day make more sense).
I don't like the idea to attach it to Cha, that would tie luck to personality, is not make much sense for me (unless if the char are a weasel )
The fiction checks out, it's basically people who have a strong enough force of personality to twist fate around them when they're really determined.
I'm more interested in mechanical considerations of balance and such.
There's no considerations in my opinion if the uses still working like hero points.
If you give points based o Cha bonus, the char will just earn some more dice re-rolls. It's not like they your chars become really stronger, they just will work as if your player have a better luck.
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If based on Charisma Modifier then your Sorcerers, Bards and Scoundrel Rogues would get a huge boost vs everyone else. They would have +4 vs some classes having +0 at first level.
Or be give everyone 1 point adjusted by what you suggested of half their Charisma modifier (min 0) that way everyone will have at least one point to start off and then those that invest in Charisma would gain a slight advantage over those who don't.
A Fighter with a 14 in CHA would get 2 points vs a Bard with an 18 CHA would have 3.
That Bard would have to have a 22 in Charisma to have a 4 points which they would eventually have at the highest levels.
So not earth shattering lead.
Here is what I'm considering for my Homebrew with just the standard way of gaining hero points:
1 Hero point
• re roll a fail
2 Hero points
• heighten a spell you have prepared to your highest spell slot available
• Gain an Extra Action (Action or Reaction)
3 Hero points
• Force a reroll of Damage dice (yours or theirs) must take the 2nd roll.
Spend All Hero Points
- Avoid Dying -
The fiction checks out, it's basically people who have a strong enough force of personality to twist fate around them when they're really determined.
Thinking more about this, so make more sense do this using Wis instead. Once this attrib is the base of Will power.
If based on Charisma Modifier then your Sorcerers, Bards and Scoundrel Rogues would get a huge boost vs everyone else. They would have +4 vs some classes having +0 at first level.
Yep have this situation too. Giving points based on an attrib modifier give advantages for some classes over others. This can make an unfair benefit.
The fiction checks out, it's basically people who have a strong enough force of personality to twist fate around them when they're really determined.Thinking more about this, so make more sense do this using Wis instead. Once this attrib is the base of Will power.
If based on Charisma Modifier then your Sorcerers, Bards and Scoundrel Rogues would get a huge boost vs everyone else. They would have +4 vs some classes having +0 at first level.Yep have this situation too. Giving points based on an attrib modifier give advantages for some classes over others. This can make an unfair benefit.
I thought about that, but since the variant ability scores in the GMG switches will over to charisma, and wisdom already has so much going for it in the game right now, I decided the fiction for charisma worked well enough to justify bolstering a less-powerful stat.
The second part is more in line with what I'm worried about, do you think that having an extra hero point or two (half charisma mod) would be imbalancing? I think the full mod might be too much. It's definitely a boost, but since Charisma is a little weak anyway, I assume that carries through.
Fate Points for me are a concept uniquely associated with Warhammer Fantasy Role-Play, since it was there I first encountered them (back in the eighties).
Here's my take on Pathfinder 2 Hero Points, complete with WFRP-inspired usage :-)
Thank You, but it's still a meta-narrative mechanic, which isn't quite what I'm looking for.
The fiction checks out, it's basically people who have a strong enough force of personality to twist fate around them when they're really determined.The second part is more in line with what I'm worried about, do you think that having an extra hero point or two (half charisma mod) would be imbalancing? I think the full mod might be too much. It's definitely a boost, but since Charisma is a little weak anyway, I assume that carries through.The Cha is not thats weak too. Even don't heaving a save like Con, Wis, Dex, it still the main ability of all spontaneous casters used also to do mostly magic attack rolls and also the main ability of all social skills except from society and the secondary stat for clerics and champions and is the base stat for non-casters class CD.
Comparatively to Str for example it's way more useful stat, once the Str is now basically used for melee non-finesse attack rolls and melee/throw damage (and partially for some bows). But don't make much sense use str bonus for Fate points.
For me, still better to allow all classes to have access to it equally, receiving 1 fate point per day freely and with possibility to increment it as a general feat.
Am I reading this right that in your system some characters will have zero hero points due to having a low/average charisma?
Thank You, but it's still a meta-narrative mechanic, which isn't quite what I'm looking for.Unless I'm mistaken you haven't change the meta-narrative quality at all.
What you did in the OP was change the distribution (from the CRB system to each day you gain a number based on Charisma).
I quite agree the CRB system feels intrusive and onerous (no thank you I don't want to be interrupted every hour to decide which of my players roleplayed the best).
But I also think the core mechanism is 1) too stingy and 2) too generous, yes at the same time.
CRB Hero Points are too stingy because they do too little to justify asking the player to think about the meta-narrative. If a check is very hard a re-roll likely will fail too. And just stabilizing will simply not save you from death in far too many cases.
CRB Hero Points are also too generous: each character gets two rerolls on average per 4 hour session? That's like a HUGE BONUS compared to what the system itself hands out, totally devaluating all the hard-fought abilities you gain during your adventuring career.
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My system removes the constant interruptions, just like yours. It provides fewer but much stronger points, so that a player is justified in bringing them out but at the same time won't feel they replace and overshadow his regular abilities.
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Other posters have already pointed out the imbalance in using a specific ability score, so I will simply recommend you to consider handing out the same number to every player character, no matter what.
Have fun :)
We have very different goals here I think, the question would be if a hero point system imbalances charisma (which I'm asserting is a little weaker than the other stats atm) too much.
Am I reading this right that in your system some characters will have zero hero points due to having a low/average charisma?
Yes, in the same way that a character with low strength can carry little bulk, a character with low wisdom has a lower will save/perception, and etc. its meant to give charisma a 'non-core' benefit, as its very dumpable right now.
You'd get your first point from the upward rounding of 12 charisma (since it would be +1 mod, for half mod rounded up hero points)
The fiction checks out, it's basically people who have a strong enough force of personality to twist fate around them when they're really determined.The second part is more in line with what I'm worried about, do you think that having an extra hero point or two (half charisma mod) would be imbalancing? I think the full mod might be too much. It's definitely a boost, but since Charisma is a little weak anyway, I assume that carries through.The Cha is not thats weak too. Even don't heaving a save like Con, Wis, Dex, it still the main ability of all spontaneous casters used also to do mostly magic attack rolls and also the main ability of all social skills except from society and the secondary stat for clerics and champions and is the base stat for non-casters class CD.
Comparatively to Str for example it's way more useful stat, once the Str is now basically used for melee non-finesse attack rolls and melee/throw damage (and partially for some bows). But don't make much sense use str bonus for Fate points.
For me, still better to allow all classes to have access to it equally, receiving 1 fate point per day freely and with possibility to increment it as a general feat.
Strength is absolutely weak too, the variant ability scores in the GMG actually merge it with Constitution.
My concern is that those things you listed are all things that only someone specializing in charisma want to have, e.g. a face, someone who casts with it as a primary, etc. Whereas (most) of the other stats have a reason to 'not dump' them, that you have to weigh, I'm hoping hero points fill that niche.
Am I reading this right that in your system some characters will have zero hero points due to having a low/average charisma?Yes, in the same way that a character with low strength can carry little bulk, a character with low wisdom has a lower will save/perception, and etc. its meant to give charisma a 'non-core' benefit, as its very dumpable right now.
You'd get your first point from the upward rounding of 12 charisma (since it would be +1 mod, for half mod rounded up hero points)
Oof, that's harsh. I prefer my house rules to add options for players, not take any away.
In order to help boost charisma's viability I have a house rule that lets players choose intelligence or charisma for bonus languages known. It's a purely additive house rule, taking nothing away from players, but giving those who opt in more bang for their buck.
We have very different goals here I think, the question would be if a hero point system imbalances charisma (which I'm asserting is a little weaker than the other stats atm) too much.I guess I only understand half your goals.
The bit about not wanting hero points to intrude upon my gamesmastering each hour on the hour, sure.
But you do not change how hero points work, so I don't see how that changes the "meta narrative" at all? You say you have a goal here but I don't understand what it is.
As for Charisma, I can only say I wouldn't tie hero points (action points, fate points etc) to any specific ability or characteristic.
In my games I ask for Charisma-related checks sufficiently often that the players do no consider Charisma weaker at all. In fact, they try hard to build their characters with at least 12 Charisma (even when playing Fighters etc) just because they want to contribute in social situations: talk to NPCs, find out clues, drive the story...
Of course, there's always one player that "gives up" on the social aspect (or just don't care), and then he can go ahead with 8 Charisma. But it's not "common wisdom" Charisma is a dump stat that needs boosting, and even if it was, I would still consider your proposed implementation way too lop-sided.
Having zero hero points compared to seven each session is such a huge difference it isn't even funny. Any minmaxer would feel compelled to put a high score in Charisma in a way that feels forced, and it would invalidate too many character builds.
If you said everybody gains 2 hero points per session plus half their Charisma bonus (not penalty, rounded down), so the span was from 2 hero points (at low Charisma) to 4 hero points (at high Charisma), that would make more sense to me.
Cheers
Tldr, what you're missing is that I want the fate of hero points to be an in-fiction force, like being Taveren in the Wheel of Time, governed by their charisma- it's their personal ability to unconsciously twist fate (a physical law of the universe in question) around them through force of will.
But yeah, based off the feedback I'm getting in the thread, half charisma modifier would be the way to go, instead of full, and the default single hero point should be preserved.
What would you say to having 1 + Half Charisma Modifier Rounded Down Hero Points (no penalty) ?
You'd get your second hero point at 14 Charisma, your third at 18 Charisma, and your fourth at 22 Charisma.
These would restore on Daily Preparation.
From the title of the thread, I thought you were trying to graft the Fate Point system from the Fate Core role-playing game into PF2e...
I'm doing something similar for my games - I also dislike the meta-aspect of hero points, but would still like to preserve the gameplay aspect of being able to cheat fate.
I went the simpler route of 1 fate point/day. Though I've been toying with the idea of having a general feat requiring high Charisma (16 or 18), granting an additional fate point per day. I think this would work better than having it automatically scale.
Since you weren't clear before we made various suggestions. The thing you did make clear was you didn't like the distribution method, which we took to be the hourly best roleplayer thing.
Not specifically that it wasn't tied to Charisma.
I can totally see it being an in-fiction force without tying it to a specific attribute.
You could just as easily argue for "the fate of hero points" being an independent secondary attribute, like Perception. Or, that each character can use his or her Primary Attribute, just like certain Sorcerer concepts in fantasy draw their power from Constitution, not Charisma.
The point is, making it something all character builds benefit from equally is just all-around less problematic.
I wouldn't even try to justify why Sorcerers and Bards are more heroic than Wizards and Fighters.
I truly believe the solution to Charisma feeling like a weak attribute is to simply ask for more Social checks as the GM. As soon as your players realize their character's opinions and ideas matter less than more diplomatic or deceptive characters they will start incorporating higher Cha scores in their builds, trust me :)
Good luck with your game!
Charisma checks matter as much as any other skill does in my games, its just that my knowledge checks and such also matter, so they don't matter *more* than most of the other skills in a relative sense. I'm already doing a good job of keeping them all important, especially the knowledge stuff.
While the basic system is called "hero points" its worth looking at how it's used elsewhere, in 5e for example, we see them used as luck points- so in spite of the name, I'm not sure we have to treat people with hero points as more heroic, they would just come across as a bit luckier, a bit more favored by fate- anymore than a character using true strike is any more heroic than anyone else.
Thank you for your help but I'd like to focus on workshopping this idea, rather than letting the thread derail into arguments about whether charisma is balanced, and whether a game you know nothing about values social checks enough hm?
In other words, specific feedback about this system is the topic of the thread, rather than general advice about whats to be done with hero points- if you aren't a fan of this idea at all, that's just fine, but you likely should have stated that and why and then moved on.
I'm doing something similar for my games - I also dislike the meta-aspect of hero points, but would still like to preserve the gameplay aspect of being able to cheat fate.
I went the simpler route of 1 fate point/day. Though I've been toying with the idea of having a general feat requiring high Charisma (16 or 18), granting an additional fate point per day. I think this would work better than having it automatically scale.
That is an idea, but only a single point runs the risk of having all players reserve it for dying, whereas I'd like to see some players leverage it more, the general feat is an idea, but I'm actually considered that'd be weak, unless it came back on a 10 minute refocus or something, it is only a rerolled check after all.