Evangelist Synthesist

[ArchWein]

So, I know the Synthesist is not very popular for breaking the game reasons. And I honestly get it. Still this is a RAW question I have mostly out of curiosity and a little out of a "what's the most powerful build you can make" challenge. So, here goes...

The Evangelist Aligned Class feature states:
"She gains all the class features for this class, essentially adding every evangelist level beyond 1st to her aligned class to determine what class features she gains. She still retains the Hit Dice, base attack bonus, saving throw bonuses, and skill ranks of the prestige class, but gains all other class features of her aligned class as well as those of the evangelist prestige class"

So the first question is, say I have a Ranger 5/Evangelist 5 what is its Animal Companion's BAB?
+3 from Ranger 5 or +6 from (Ranger 5 + Evangelist 4)

Than the Synthesist Fused Eidolon feature states:
"The synthesist uses the eidolon’s base attack bonus, and gains the eidolon’s armor and natural armor bonuses and modifiers to ability scores"

Second question is, if I have a Fighter 5/Synthesist 5, what is her BAB?
+4 from Eidolon of Synthesist 5 or +9 from Eidolon of Synthesist 5 + Fighter 5
Does the Eidolon's BAB replace the Synthesist level's BAB or the character's BAB

Lastly, if you answered "the second" on both questions (as I've seen on most threads) what happens with:
Synthesist 5/Evangelist 5?
Technically, the Eidolon should have BAB +7 (Synthesist 5 + Evangelist 4) which would replace only the Synthesist level's BAB.
The end result would be +7 (from Eidolon 9) +4 (from Evangelist 5) = +11 BAB at character level 10

[Ecoris]

That ... is an interesting question.

First things, though: Evangelist 5 is only +3 BAB.

Back in 2011, Sean Reynolds said that the Eidolon's BAB replaces just the Summoner's BAB bonus, so in your Fighter 5/Synthesist 5 example:

When the Eidolon has not been summoned, +8 (Fighter +5, Summoner +3)
When the Eidolon has been summoned, +9 (Fighter +5, Eidolon +4)

When things get interesting is the interaction with the Evangelist class, since it can modify the Eidolon, which is a class feature of the summoner.

Things are simple for a Synthesist 5/Evangelist 5 that has not summoned an Eidolon, as the base attack bonus for the classes add up to +6 (Summonor +3 and Evangelist's +3).

Equally simple for the same character that has summoned the Eidolon but has not performed the daily obedience, the base attack bonus is +7 (Eidolon's +4 and Evangelist's +3).

But with both the obedience performed and the Eidolon summoned ... oh dear. The Eidolon is now based on a 9th level summoner, so 7HD and +7 BAB. If that +7 replaces only the summoner's +3 while leaving the Evangelist's +3 intact, then is that +10 BAB?

Hmmm. I think that breaks the spirit of the rules, so in my campaign, I would not allow that. Instead, I would have the Eidolon's BAB replace the BAB from the class levels that provide the Eidolon bonus (all three summoner class levels, 4 of the 5 Evangelist class levels), so the summoned+obedience character would have a net BAB of +7 (7HD Eidolon +7, +0 from first level of Evangelist).

The reason I would rule that way is the general principle that "bonuses of the same type from the same source do not stack". The Evangelist class levels are the source of +3 BAB from the class itself, and the source of the +3 BAB from the obedience-only Eidolon HD.

But how bad would it be to rule the other way?

Synthesist 5/Evangelist 9, with Obedience performed and Eidolon summoned. The Eidolon will have 10 HD, so a BAB of +10. The Evangelist class has a BAB of +6. Allowing those to add together would give a BAB of +16 which is enough for 4 iterative attacks ... two levels before a single class fighter can do the same.

And I'm right back to "Nope".

Just my $.02

[Melkiador]

ArchWein wrote:

So the first question is, say I have a Ranger 5/Evangelist 5 what is its Animal Companion's BAB?

+3 from Ranger 5 or +6 from (Ranger 5 + Evangelist 4)

The companion would be as if the character were a level 9 ranger. In all ways.

Quote:

Second question is, if I have a Fighter 5/Synthesist 5, what is her BAB?

+4 from Eidolon of Synthesist 5 or +9 from Eidolon of Synthesist 5 + Fighter 5
Does the Eidolon's BAB replace the Synthesist level's BAB or the character's BAB

You replace the synthesist’s BAB and add to the fighter BAB.

Quote:

Lastly, if you answered "the second" on both questions (as I've seen on most threads) what happens with:

Synthesist 5/Evangelist 5?
Technically, the Eidolon should have BAB +7 (Synthesist 5 + Evangelist 4) which would replace only the Synthesist level's BAB.
The end result would be +7 (from Eidolon 9) +4 (from Evangelist 5) = +11 BAB at character level 10

The part about keeping the evangelist BAB is what you do when unfused. But the fusion is a more specific rule. “She gains all the class features for this class” combines with “While fused... The synthesist uses the eidolon’s base attack bonus”. For the purpose of fusion the evangelist counts as a synthesist and loses their BAB anyway.

As an aside, this isn’t much different than an evangelist with avenger specialization vigilante.

[Joey Cote]

The animal companion (excluding any other feats such as boon companion) would be treated as a 5th level druid animal companion (Ranger -4 levels plus -1 level for Evangelist) so according to the chart it would have a BAB of +3.

The second case gets tricky because of this Errata for Ultimate Magic

Summoner: Does a synthesist (page 80) use his own Hit Dice or his eidolon's Hit Dice for evolutions based on Hit Dice, such as Breath Weapon and Web? What about his BAB for making attacks?
The synthesist uses the eidolon's Hit Dice for the effects of evolutions, not his summoner Hit Dice or his total Hit Dice.

When fused, use the eidolon's BAB instead of the summoner's class BAB, and add in BAB from other sources as normal. For example, a fighter 19/summoner 1 normally has a total BAB of +19 (+19 from fighter, +0 from summoner), and when fused with his eidolon this increases to +20 (+19 from fighter, +1 from the 1st-level eidolon).

So the Fighter5/Synthesis 5 while fused would get a BAB of 4 from the Eidolon and +5 to that for the Fighter BAB.

In the last case, Synthesis 5/Evangelist 5 while fused you would get the base BAB of the Eidolon(Summoner 9) of +7 and the BAB of a lvl 5 Evangelist, which is +3 for a total of +10. I don't know where you are getting the +4 from Evangelist from unless D20 has the wrong value for BAB of a lvl 5 Evangelist.

That having been said, your effectively double dipping your Evangelist class BAB, by using it to increase the BAB of the Eidolon to overwrite your Summoner BAB and then adding the Evangelist BAB on top. My personal opinion is any GM would be well within their rights to not allow you to add your Evangelist BAB to your Eidolon's BAB while fused for this specific class combination.

[ArchWein]

My mistake about Evangelist 5 having BAB +4, should be +3, obviously.

So my 15th level build is:
UC Monk 1/Paladin 3/Synthesist 1/Evangelist 10

Am I correct that by RAW when fused the BAB would be 19?
(+1 UC Monk +3 Paladin +8 Eidolon +7 Evangelist)

I would out rule this as a GM myself, but as said in the OP this is a "by RAW question". So by RAW would this be the case?

[Melkiador]

The RAW is still open to interpretation. In this case, it's specific vs general. The general rule is that the Evenagelist uses his own BAB. But this rule is overridden by the more general rule that when you activate Fused Eidolon your BAB is replaced with the Eidolon's.

The avenger vigilante is actually harder to argue against:

Quote:

An avenger gains a base attack bonus equal to his vigilante level instead of using those listed on Table 1–1. He adds this value to any other base attack bonus gained from other classes or racial Hit Dice as normal.

The evangelist would gain his own BAB while also advancing the Avenger BAB.