Heroic Recovery
There seems to be an elephant in the room. Healing. We've got a blog post referencing Resonance points and how they were being used to curve low level item "abuse". I'm not going to argue if that is good or bad. What it was was a solution to a healing problem. We've got a thread about using Stamina from Starfinder. We've got numerous discussions about the efficacy of healers and the feel and tone of needing them.
What problems do we have relying on healers? Well, that means Cleric as they are the only class that is really competent at healing. Druids, Bards, and mundane healers just don't cut it. Necessitating a particular class for each party doesn't feel good and limits customization.
What problems do we have just abusing CLW Wands and consumables? Firstly, it bumps into a hard cap of Resonance which was partially designed to stop this kind of spamming. It doesn't "feel" right for a lot of people as the low level items are more efficient and desirable than the higher level counterparts. They often obsolete healers and healer abilities.
What problems does using Stamina from Starfinder cause? Adding Stamina Points creates another pool to track. It operates off Resolve Points which necessitates yet another pool to track. Resolve as written in Starfinder can be used numerous times a day and in its own way obsoletes healers in the traditional sense. It really changes the feel of P2.
My Suggestion: Heroic Recovery
Spend 1 Hero Point allows you to dig into reserves of strength and resilience only heroes have. Anytime outside of encounter mode you can spend 1 hero point to recover half of your HP(rounded up).
Why is this a better solution? We already have a Hero Points Pool, it is limited and self contained coming with substantial opportunity cost. Heroic Recovery just adds another use for Hero Points. We don't need any new pools, no new resource tracking. Just a simple rule added to an existing mechanic.
Thematically it represents your hero spending a few seconds or minutes catching their breath, digging down into their heroic resolve, and finding what they need to keep pushing and taking abuse. It fits the "hero" them well. This also represents a useful tool for the DM, when putting the heroes through an epic set of encounters, you can give out hero points for performing heroic deed. Characters only earn more hero points by doing heroic things, and using those hero points to heal to keep doing heroic things just works.
Mechanically it gives non healer a way to heal a substantial amount of hit points when they need to. It makes non healer parties more viable. It does not obsolete healers or consumables as it uses Hero Points which are a valuable commodity. There is a hard cap on hero points of 3, and characters start the session or adventure with only one. The only real way to earn more is by doing heroic things, easily defined as the things likely to get you hurt and in need of healing. The more heroic things they do, the more heroic recoveries they can take and the more hero points they earn. It becomes a very good way of throttling adventures and greatly reduced the 15 min adventuring day. Often when the adventuring day comes to an end is when you've depleted your resources, including your hero points. You just have run out of mythical hero go juice and need to fall back.
What about healers, magical and mundane, and consumables? They are still useful and desirable. Firstly, you can't use Heroic Recover in encounter mode, so if you're running out of HP in a fight, it doesn't do you any good. Secondly, any healing that doesn't deplete hero points leaves that precious pool for staving off death, or for that critical reroll or extra action. Your mundane healing, consumables, and healers all have a place. Their healing hasn't been obsoleted, and the more they do the less pressure players feel on their hero points.
One potential change to hero points. Maybe, if this was adopted it would be better to codify that the hero point pool is to reset it to 1 after a long rest so long as there was an encounter since the last long rest preventing abuse. The "Session" mechanic may not quite work ideally for this change.
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That's not a bad idea, but the problem is that hero points are a discretionary system, while the DM doesn't REALLY get to arbitrate the number of spells you have (he CAN, but that's clearly houserule territory).
I would prefer if, rather than coming up with a way for EVERY class to have the same kind of healing, that every class heal in a different way. MMO's, to some extent, have kinda gotten the hang of this, and there are some signs of progress in this regard. For example, a Paladin's Lay on Hands doesn't only heal, but provides an AC boost. The Soothe spell (as opposed to Heal) gives a bonus against mental effects. I would just like to see more diversity in how healing works. For example: We have persistent damage, so why not have persistent healing? What about temp-HP granting as a main source of damage mitigation? I feel like there are a lot of avenues that we could explore before getting into NEEDING something like Healing Surges/Hit Dice/Stamina/Hero Point HP.
Off the top of my head, what if:
Clerics: Divine spell list offers the highest single-target burst healing, wit cleric's extra uses allowing them to corner the market. They can be good at other things, but this is something they can cover with no investment.
Druids: Primal spell list offers the longest-duration, or maybe even sole access, to persistent healing effects. These effects have the potential to heal for VAST amounts of HP, but the over-time mechanic requires interesting group planning to work around.
Bards: Occult Spell list offers healing with benefits, primarily focused around offensive bonuses and mental condition removal, and is particularly efficient at group healing. They can sustain a large number of allies, and are particularly adept at removing frightened and other mental afflictions.
Paladins: Lay on Hands is the unique Paladin heal, and options for increasing your number (possibly up to 1/2 your level, or at least 3+Charisma Modifier) would really open up the Hospitaler style paladin a bit more. Lay on Hands should keep its niche, which is single target moderate healing with beneficial defensive effects and physical condition removal.
Wizard: Abjuration is a really underwhelming school, but what if it was the go-to school for defensive support? Abjuration spells grant allies Temporary HP in the form of magical shields, etc. and wizards are usually also uniquely positioned to grant elemental resistances and damage reduction. These two things combined would make the idea of a support wizard a unique spin on the classic.
Sorcerer: I mean, you just pick one from the above (except Paladin, of course).
Alchemist: Specializes in versatility via potions, and excels at long-term, cost efficient care. Alchemist is your catch all, being one of the few classes with access to basically every form of healing, but with it being more limited due to the class's nature.
You could even have unique supportive abilities baked into the martial classes, and you already see this a little bit with abilities like the Temp HP from a Barbarian's rage, or Wholeness of Body for the Monk. I just think they should be opened up more.
Overall, I understand the concern. Too much healing access can slow down games, but I don't think any group really WANTS to do that. I just think it make sense for every group, regardless of composition, to not NEED to play a "Healer" character, or if the group later decides they need some support for their playstyle, nobody says "Who wants to be the cleric?" Forcing a single class on player is bland. Giving players options for unique playstyles all while offering the role of support? That's cool.
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Starfinder' Stamina/Hit/Resolve system seems more elegant, already has playtest and game data behind it, and achieves the desired result better, IMO.
Davor wrote: That's not a bad idea, but the problem is that hero points are a discretionary system, while the DM doesn't REALLY get to arbitrate the number of spells you have (he CAN, but that's clearly houserule territory).
Hero points are discretionary to a point, but characters always start the session with one. I did suggest that the counter reset on a long rest, and not on a session basis. That would help with the discretionary problem.
BPorter wrote: Starfinder' Stamina/Hit/Resolve system seems more elegant, already has playtest and game data behind it, and achieves the desired result better, IMO. Sure, in your opinion. But in the opinion of the senior designer is that’s a bridge too far. He said in the other thread he doesn’t see it happening.
My suggestion uses existing mechanics, doesn’t create new pools, and would greatly mitigate the existing healing problem.
As for playtest data, we’ll that data isn’t completely of use for P2, at least not more useful than it would for my heroic recovery suggestion. The big balancing problem comes with longevity of Martials vs Casters and stamina/resolve vs caster healing, consumables, and mundane healing. So casters have enough slots etc to make it a whole “day” adventuring next to martials with their limited spell slots. Stamina become the outright premier healing system. Starfinder doesn’t have an existing healing system like Pathfinder, and with Stamina it doesn’t need it. At the very least it needs major calibration.
Any use of the Starfinder playtest data is still very relevant to my Heroic recovery suggestion. Though, it by its natures will play nicer with existing healing mechanics. It’s alao only a once, maybe more, per day mechanic.
If we ultimately did go with Stamina like mechanic I’d like to see Race +ConMod/level equal HP, and our Class/level be Stamina with a fixed per day pool for recover probabaly equalling out around two uses per day or the recover being only half stamina and usable a handful of times per day or 4-5.
I really thing my heroic resolve suggestion with a more codified and less dm discretionary hero point system would be best. Maybe even a 2/day long rest, max of 3. And retool the other abilities to each take a single hero point.
I really don't want to see a system where you can rest and recover for all or half your wounds. That blows realism out the door for me.
If a stamina/hp system were implemented, I'd be fine with healing all your stamina overnight (not a long rest), and maybe half in an hour, with hp natural healing being slow (maybe Con mod per night), but with just a single hp pool, it doesn't make sense to recover from multiple major injuries just by resting a bit.
JoelF847 wrote: I really don't want to see a system where you can rest and recover for all or half your wounds. That blows realism out the door for me.
If a stamina/hp system were implemented, I'd be fine with healing all your stamina overnight (not a long rest), and maybe half in an hour, with hp natural healing being slow (maybe Con mod per night), but with just a single hp pool, it doesn't make sense to recover from multiple major injuries just by resting a bit.
While I don't agree with the realism, I do think you've really touched on the necessity for in-universe methods of restoring health/preventing damage, and for having each class have a unique/flavorful method of doing so. While I'm not opposed to Stamina personally (I actually really like the system, so much that my homebrew 5e rules use it), I find class-specific healing abilities much more enjoyable. The PF1 Skald having the ability to grant fast healing to allies while doing a raging song? AWESOME. We need more abilities like that.
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JoelF847 wrote: I really don't want to see a system where you can rest and recover for all or half your wounds. That blows realism out the door for me.
If a stamina/hp system were implemented, I'd be fine with healing all your stamina overnight (not a long rest), and maybe half in an hour, with hp natural healing being slow (maybe Con mod per night), but with just a single hp pool, it doesn't make sense to recover from multiple major injuries just by resting a bit.
Ah, but that's just the thing - taking hp damage isn't meant to represent a "major injury" - it's meant to reference your luck and gumption, staving off major injuries or downgrading them to glancing blows. Taking 30 damage from a troll's club represents you being grazed, or a near miss that exhausts you, not letting the club bounce off your chest.
I'd like to see non-magical healing made a bit more robust. Currently, Battle Medic only works 1/day/character. Why? What's the in-world logic? Why not 1/encounter. Why shouldn't you be able to treat new injuries? And after any combat, how about regaining some, 1 hp/level plus con mod, representing catching your breath and reducing the lactic acid buildup in your muscles.
The thread on Stamina is probably relevant.
The problem with this is that it dramatically increases pressure on DMs to hand out hero points. Party without a full time healer? Pressure will exist to hand out more hero points.
This is a thing that happens frequently, because lost HP has to be recovered somehow. Short rests can accomplish something similar but don't add that, and leave hero points for more heroics (and thus more limited).
Davor wrote: I would prefer if, rather than coming up with a way for EVERY class to have the same kind of healing, that every class heal in a different way. This. And you can expand it to non-casters as well:
Fighters (and paladins and other martials) effectively heal themselves by reducing the damage they take in the first place by using a shield and using it well. This essentially means that a shield has to be much tougher than the nonsense we currently have, though the mechanic (+2 AC and DR by blocking) is essentially correct. See also Bodyguard for protecting other people.
Rangers can heal a bit like druids, using that nature stuff, herbs and whatnot. And having a way to tend their AC, of course.
Monks are monks. They've been able to self-heal since 1e AD&D. And they need a better AC or parry mechanism too.
That leaves Rogues. Apart from First Aid skill, I'm not sure. But it can't be that hard to dream something up.
Tridus wrote: The thread on Stamina is probably relevant.
The problem with this is that it dramatically increases pressure on DMs to hand out hero points. Party without a full time healer? Pressure will exist to hand out more hero points.
This is a thing that happens frequently, because lost HP has to be recovered somehow. Short rests can accomplish something similar but don't add that, and leave hero points for more heroics (and thus more limited).
I posted this in that thread as well. Outside of being done outside of encounter mode and healing effective half your "health" this isn't the Stamina system.
I recommended changing how hero points are allotted to make them somewhat more codified. I think resetting your hero point totals to 1-2, probably 2, after a long rest is best. Maximum of 3 which has to be earned.
See, you're talking about the pressure on DMs to hand them out more when needed as a bad thing. IMO, its just the opposite. It is a DM fiat tool that is codified right into the rules. When you are pushing your party to its limits and running a longer set of encounters where their resources are being taxed and a 15min adventuring day breaks immersion or isn't feasible it gives the DM a tool so that can readily extend the party longevity in a meaningful way.
I also recommend changing the cost of each heroic action to a single hero point. Let them be easier to use instead of save for dying which is the default.
P2 has scaling can trips, even Wizards with a magical weapon can deal close to level appropriate damage. With hero points the party can be pushed to the absolute max.
What option is more immersive? The party pushes through another wave of undead minions as they strive to reach the dread necromancer. After yet another wave, even larger than the last the heroes are on the ropes. The Wizard is wounded, the Fighter was put down but is stable, their Cleric is almost out of resources, and only the Rogue is in good shape.
Would you rather the party...
1. Retreat, take a long rest, and return the next day at 100%.
2. Spam a dozen or two or three charges of cure light wounds from a fistful of wands to restore most of the parties HP. Maybe its drink a potion or seven too.
3. DM hands out a hero point. The Fighter uses it to take a breather and get to 50%+1, maybe uses a potion or gets one of the Clerics few remaining resources to get to 60-70%. The Wizard decides he'll use a hero point to top off at 100% with a breather too. The cleric looks at his HP and says a Lesser Healing potion will do, he eyes his last spell slot and slaps his mace against his hand ready to mix it up. And the Rogue banks his hero point and is sitting at three ready for anything.
Personally, I'd much rather the answer is number 3. I'd like the heroes to take a big breath, dig deep, and find a way to keep chugging onward. 1 feels cheap and just breaks immersion. I see this as the worst solution. 2 doesn't feel great either, but is at least a solution. 3 feels heroic.
I think the idea of using a hero point is worth a shot at trying. It's pretty simple to incorporate and see if really works well or not.
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Arklore wrote: I think the idea of using a hero point is worth a shot at trying. It's pretty simple to incorporate and see if really works well or not. Yeah, and it looks like hero points in general have been a bust for anything except wait until you're dying to use one.
Re-codifying how we regen them, say set to 2 after a long rest, maximum of 3. All heroic actions cost 1. Add Heroic Resolve.
IMO, its just retooling an existing system that looks like it needs work anyway.
Plus, it feels more heroic than spamming consumables, or retiring after the 15 min adventuring day.
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