Arcana: “learning a spell: Failure You fail to learn the spell but can try again after you gain a level. The materials aren’t expended.”
Whenever you gain a new level feels so arbitrary. It could be anywhere between the next session or a few real life months. Isn't it better to change this to a period of in-game time like a week?
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It becomes a week with the right skill feat. Magical Shorthand.
But yeah, next level doesn't make much sense and seems overly punishing for wizards, which is the only class that REALLY needs to be able to learn new spells this way. Makes Magical Shorthand feel like a feat tax for them.
Not that there's much better things to do with skill feats on a wizrd, but still...
Blave wrote: It becomes a week with the right skill feat. Magical Shorthand.
But yeah, next level doesn't make much sense and seems overly punishing for wizards, which is the only class that REALLY needs to be able to learn new spells this way. Makes Magical Shorthand feel like a feat tax for them.
Not that there's much better things to do with skill feats on a wizrd, but still...
Good point on the feat. But also on how its bad. Maybe raise the standard to 1 month and 1 week with the feat? Than its still a nice feat to have but without it feeling so mandatory high level.
It's a balancing tool for Wizards (and Quick Preparation), you can't have every spell you want unless you get lucky die rolls or take the feat or wait until you're overleveled to backfill your spellbook at lower spell levels.
Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
Each time you gain a level, you automatically add two more arcane spells to your spellbook. These can be of any level of spell you can cast. You can also use the Arcana skill to add other spells that you find, as described on page 146.
Under Spellbook on page 137.
The learning a new spell activity is only for learning new spells outside of your free ones from leveling up.
nightpanda2810 wrote: Each time you gain a level, you automatically add two more arcane spells to your spellbook. These can be of any level of spell you can cast. You can also use the Arcana skill to add other spells that you find, as described on page 146.
Under Spellbook on page 137.
The learning a new spell activity is only for learning new spells outside of your free ones from leveling up.
Exactly, that's one of the reason for my advice on wizards 2e:
Forget Intelligence, raise char instead
Xenocrat wrote: It's a balancing tool for Wizards (and Quick Preparation), you can't have every spell you want unless you get lucky die rolls or take the feat or wait until you're overleveled to backfill your spellbook at lower spell levels. I don't mind a balancing tool but this one is bad. Say you are level 20 and you failed to learn a spell. You can't level anymore so you can't retry it, unless you took a very specific feat (that does then feels mandatory)?
Alternatively I don't understand the part about spontaneous casters (same in nature, occultism etc). It seems to allow to only learn a spell and add or swap it with another one when you level up. But isn't this already what's happening when a sorcerer levels up ?
Ystear Fearis wrote: Alternatively I don't understand the part about spontaneous casters (same in nature, occultism etc). It seems to allow to only learn a spell and add or swap it with another one when you level up. But isn't this already what's happening when a sorcerer levels up ?
When you level up you can add / swap in spells that you have access to. "Learning" an uncommon, rare, or unique spell means you'll have access when you level up, which otherwise you probably wouldn't.
Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote: Ystear Fearis wrote: Alternatively I don't understand the part about spontaneous casters (same in nature, occultism etc). It seems to allow to only learn a spell and add or swap it with another one when you level up. But isn't this already what's happening when a sorcerer levels up ?
When you level up you can add / swap in spells that you have access to. "Learning" an uncommon, rare, or unique spell means you'll have access when you level up, which otherwise you probably wouldn't. I didn't even see that spells had rarities. Is this even needed seriously ? (Not a fan at all of this common/uncommon/rare thing that is very abritrary., I would have understood the level as some kind of rarity index, but doubling it makes it weird)
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Xenocrat wrote: It's a balancing tool for Wizards (and Quick Preparation), you can't have every spell you want unless you get lucky die rolls or take the feat or wait until you're overleveled to backfill your spellbook at lower spell levels. Balancing what? Wizards already get the lowest ht points, lowest skills, no useful armor. H*^^ they don't even get the same benefits as other spellcasters(divine). I ive the same advice to all my players, if you playu a wizard roll a 3rd level character right off, if you don't you won't last long.
Honestly failing the learn DC isd pretty minor. My concern is how the COST of learning an extra spell will play. 2 gold for a 1st level, 140 for a 6th, 7,000 for a 20th, pricey.
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I do commend the developers for keeping the spells per day even for all spellcasters though. 3 per day per level, looks like I'm making tons more scrolls and wands.
UncleG wrote: Xenocrat wrote: It's a balancing tool for Wizards (and Quick Preparation), you can't have every spell you want unless you get lucky die rolls or take the feat or wait until you're overleveled to backfill your spellbook at lower spell levels. Balancing what? Wizards already get the lowest ht points, lowest skills, no useful armor. H*^^ they don't even get the same benefits as other spellcasters(divine). I ive the same advice to all my players, if you playu a wizard roll a 3rd level character right off, if you don't you won't last long. You haven't seen all the sorcerer partisans screaming in rage about Quick Preparation, which they claim invalidates the Wizard's preparation limits and makes them strictly superior? The cost and difficulty of learning spells is the only thing limiting a Wizard from picking his spells on the fly from the entire list outside of and between combats.
UncleG wrote: Honestly failing the learn DC isd pretty minor. My concern is how the COST of learning an extra spell will play. 2 gold for a 1st level, 140 for a 6th, 7,000 for a 20th, pricey. You have a consistent 30-35% chance to fail to learn a spell of your highest level. It's worse if you don't max your Int and item bonuses, better if you're learning lower level spells.
As for costs, I discussed that here.
Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber
The 20th level feat that grants access to 10th level spells needs language that eliminates the need for a check, as there is only one chance ever to make that check for a spell that can be learned only at 20th level.
David knott 242 wrote: The 20th level feat that grants access to 10th level spells needs language that eliminates the need for a check, as there is only one chance ever to make that check for a spell that can be learned only at 20th level.
I don't think they have much sympathy for the character who doesn't get extra (past the two guaranteed) 10th level spells. Pobrecitas!
UncleG wrote: Xenocrat wrote: It's a balancing tool for Wizards (and Quick Preparation), you can't have every spell you want unless you get lucky die rolls or take the feat or wait until you're overleveled to backfill your spellbook at lower spell levels. Balancing what? Wizards already get the lowest ht points, lowest skills, no useful armor. H*^^ they don't even get the same benefits as other spellcasters(divine). I ive the same advice to all my players, if you playu a wizard roll a 3rd level character right off, if you don't you won't last long. Don't forget saves!
Okay, my feeling in this, is that they tried to increase the "power" of the wizard at lower levels and decrease at higher levels.
Which is exactly the opposite that I want and that all wizard players I know (not many really) want.
They increased the AC and attack of wizards, eliminated the armor spell failure, provide a level 0 for hitpoints. Some I like and some I don't, but they are taking away from spell casters the thing we wanted more: casting spells!!!!
Their idea is supposedly that you need to be on the back and cast one (1) spell and pray for it to succeed.
Give me my spells back, I would gladly go back to 4hp per level in exchange of more spells/level or at least using intelligence to get more spells.
Xenocrat wrote: David knott 242 wrote: The 20th level feat that grants access to 10th level spells needs language that eliminates the need for a check, as there is only one chance ever to make that check for a spell that can be learned only at 20th level.
I don't think they have much sympathy for the character who doesn't get extra (past the two guaranteed) 10th level spells. Pobrecitas! Pobrecitos!
;-)
Pathfinder PF Special Edition Subscriber
Ystear Fearis wrote: Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote: Alternatively I don't understand the part about spontaneous casters (same in nature, occultism etc). It seems to allow to only learn a spell and add or swap it with another one when you level up. But isn't this already what's happening when a sorcerer levels up ?
When you level up you can add / swap in spells that you have access to. "Learning" an uncommon, rare, or unique spell means you'll have access when you level up, which otherwise you probably wouldn't. So (GM's discretion) you need to actually put work into finding the spells you want in game? That's interesting, makes me think of possible homebrew worlds tailored to High or Low magic settings. Maybe some "Common" or "Rare" spells are rarer or more common in your world. Or Spells could have different Rarity for different Classes, a Sorcerer might have access to certain "Rare" fire spells sooner if they're descended from Dragons.
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