The Skills DCs by Level system is just bad... and on Character Level as modifiers.


Skills, Feats, Equipment & Spells


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This is the same kind of skills system that was in D&D 4th edition, where the DCs of the skill checks were more dependent on what level the character is than what the actual skill DCs are supposed to really be. It didn't function well in 4e and it makes no sense here.

Plus... this is convoluted as (insert appropriate word here, if there is one).

This is also showcasing something else that I think will be the problem of this edition, if it's kept, and that's the Add Your Character Level as a modifier to Everything issue. You add your level as a modifier to your Saves, Skills, Attacks, etc. And while this system works functionally well in D&D 5e, here the modifier of going from +1 to +20 for everything in the game is just way too swingy.

This goes counter to the design of taking Proficiency Levels, which range from -2 to +3 over Untrained to Legendary, which is a design that shrinks the total modifier range applied to the d20 dice rolls.

Now if you added just half your character level (which is how the math was in D&D 4e) this range would go from +1 to +10, and that's way more manageable. Less swingy, less based on luck of the die roll, and it'd be easier to design for.

Bounded Accuracy works for a reason. It's supported by the actual Proficiency system than ripped apart by Character Level as a Modifier, which exasperates one of the central problems Pathfinder has always had.

And I admit to not getting the logic of this DC skills system. To me, if something is a DC 20 at level 1, that same action should be a DC 20 test at level 10. But according to these rules, that's not the case.

So it's really also just confusing as hell.

I love everything else about the game so far. But this problem will be enough to keep me from playing it if it sticks around in 2e.


Most DCs don't change by level. For example, balancing on a fallen log is listed on page 338 as a level 1 task that becomes trivial at level 6. As such, it is roughly DC 15. It will always be DC 15. The table for DCs based on level is intended to describe which kinds of tasks make for a good challenge at a given level. That is, incidentally, how the 4e skill system worked prior to Essentials too.

Having said that, I'd much rather see the different levels of proficiency make more difference and character level make much less of a difference than have things as they are currently; beyond the availability of skill feats, there is little to differentiate them currently.


Chris Parker wrote:

Most DCs don't change by level. For example, balancing on a fallen log is listed on page 338 as a level 1 task that becomes trivial at level 6. As such, it is roughly DC 15. It will always be DC 15. The table for DCs based on level is intended to describe which kinds of tasks make for a good challenge at a given level. That is, incidentally, how the 4e skill system worked prior to Essentials too.

Having said that, I'd much rather see the different levels of proficiency make more difference and character level make much less of a difference than have things as they are currently; beyond the availability of skill feats, there is little to differentiate them currently.

Except that at level 15 it is supposed to be a much more challenging log than it was at level 6. Now it is slippery and has a tendency to roll. Back at level 6 it was just a log.


thorin001 wrote:
Chris Parker wrote:

Most DCs don't change by level. For example, balancing on a fallen log is listed on page 338 as a level 1 task that becomes trivial at level 6. As such, it is roughly DC 15. It will always be DC 15. The table for DCs based on level is intended to describe which kinds of tasks make for a good challenge at a given level. That is, incidentally, how the 4e skill system worked prior to Essentials too.

Having said that, I'd much rather see the different levels of proficiency make more difference and character level make much less of a difference than have things as they are currently; beyond the availability of skill feats, there is little to differentiate them currently.

Except that at level 15 it is supposed to be a much more challenging log than it was at level 6. Now it is slippery and has a tendency to roll. Back at level 6 it was just a log.

All logs don't magically change into slippery, rolling logs at level 15. The logs you care about are different, though. Because that plain log isn't an interesting challenge anymore.

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