poison weirdness

[shroudb]

just a few things about poisons that (imo) need adressing:

a)High level injury poisons.

injury poisons stop at level 13. Given that there is a plethora of higher grade poisonous monster, I hope that in the end product we will have access to up to 18+ injury poisons.

b)Inhaled poison availability.

like above. We have 3 inhaled poisons and they are all in the same levels 15/16/16.
It needs much better spread, from low to high

c)wasting poison on failed attacks.

it simply doesn't make sense that a missed attack (not an attack that hit but did not damage) wastes the poison. I mean, i can cover my weapon in it, carry it for ten hours, sheath and unsheath it, play with it, etc, and not waste it, but the second i swing at the air the poison is gone? That seems way too excessive of a nerf to a questionable AND quite expensive equipment for no reason at all.

[Xenocrat]

Cost.

[Shane LeRose]

shroudb wrote:

it simply doesn't make sense that a missed attack (not an attack that hit but did not damage) wastes the poison. I mean, i can cover my weapon in it, carry it for ten hours, sheath and unsheath it, play with it, etc, and not waste it, but the second i swing at the air the poison is gone? That seems way too excessive of a nerf to a questionable AND quite expensive equipment for no reason at all.

I agree. Considering you start with 15 gold and a dose of centipede drool cost 3 gold I'd say the risk is not worth the reward. This is a new system though, and the presence of alchemists are restricting poison design.

I say we ban alchemists and make poisons great again!

Or, run the playtest as is and maybe try to mark down how often a PC misses with poison and how much this impacts the encounter. It's little bits like this that Paizo needs to hear about.

[shroudb]

also

can we for the first time have concise "poison harvesting" rules in a skill? pretty please?

[Fuzzypaws]

I'm okay with a crit failure wasting the poison, or a hit where all the damage gets prevented by DR, but yeah, a regular whiff should not waste it.

[sherlock1701]

shroudb wrote:

also

can we for the first time have concise "poison harvesting" rules in a skill? pretty please?

Not really codified anywhere, but I've found that a Survival check with a DC equal to the Identify Monster DC (15+CR) tends to work well. I usually give 1d3 or 1d4 doses, +1 for every 5 by which they beat the DC. If they fail and don't have Poison Use, they poison themselves.

[Elleth]

One thing I'm a little uncertain of with poison is where the inhaled burst is.

Is it centered on self because no listed range?

[shroudb]

Elleth wrote:

One thing I'm a little uncertain of with poison is where the inhaled burst is.

Is it centered on self because no listed range?

It's centered on the vial.

If you uncork it yourself it's centered on yourself, if a monster uncorks it (here buddy, drink this) it's centered on the monster

If you throw (and subsequently shatter) the vial it's centered where you threw it.

And etc

Range for throwing should follow all the other thrown vials, 20ft increment.

[Elleth]

shroudb wrote:

Elleth wrote:

One thing I'm a little uncertain of with poison is where the inhaled burst is.

Is it centered on self because no listed range?

It's centered on the vial.

If you uncork it yourself it's centered on yourself, if a monster uncorks it (here buddy, drink this) it's centered on the monster

If you throw (and subsequently shatter) the vial it's centered where you threw it.

And etc

Range for throwing should follow all the other thrown vials, 20ft increment.

Thanks. So either poison resist or Breathe Deep then uncork.

I know it's a silly question thematically, but I couldn't actually find anything you can throw a poison vial in such a way that it shatters?

Also a little confused that it doesn't seem to call out a save being needed for someone who starts in its space, just who enters it.

I think these poisons are really quite cool as far as I can tell, but some rules clarifications would be nice.

[shroudb]

Elleth wrote:

shroudb wrote:

Elleth wrote:

One thing I'm a little uncertain of with poison is where the inhaled burst is.

Is it centered on self because no listed range?

It's centered on the vial.

If you uncork it yourself it's centered on yourself, if a monster uncorks it (here buddy, drink this) it's centered on the monster

If you throw (and subsequently shatter) the vial it's centered where you threw it.

And etc

Range for throwing should follow all the other thrown vials, 20ft increment.

Thanks. So either poison resist or Breathe Deep then uncork.

I know it's a silly question thematically, but I couldn't actually find anything you can throw a poison vial in such a way that it shatters?

Also a little confused that it doesn't seem to call out a save being needed for someone who starts in its space, just who enters it.

I think these poisons are really quite cool as far as I can tell, but some rules clarifications would be nice.

All alchemical bombs (like acid flasks and etc) are basically vials that shatter on impact.

I posted my answer based on those since it makes sense. There are no actual written rules

For people just standing there, I would treat them as entering.

[Alchemaic]

Shane LeRose wrote:

I say we ban alchemists and make poisons great again!

Banning Alchemists wouldn't do much honestly, the best poisoner class is the Rogue right now since they can use Injury poisons as a single action and at level 8 they don't lose the poison on a miss.

Elleth wrote:

I know it's a silly question thematically, but I couldn't actually find anything you can throw a poison vial in such a way that it shatters?

There was no explicit rule for it in PF1e as far as I can recall, but it fell under the umbrella of thrown improvised weapons and the assumption that most things in glass vials or small pouches are released when they hit the ground. For some stuff, like potions, there's specific wording blocks that prevent a thrown item from being effective like having to be ingested and not working on the target's body (unlike Oils). Poisons don't have that, so as long as the container breaks the poison begins to take effect.

[Elleth]

@ shroudb and Alchemaic.
OK, thanks. Just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing anything.

While it's intuitively the correct answer, without it being RAW I probably can't get away with it during the playtest period.

[WizardsBlade]

shroudb wrote:

just a few things about poisons that (imo) need adressing:

a)High level injury poisons.

injury poisons stop at level 13. Given that there is a plethora of higher grade poisonous monster, I hope that in the end product we will have access to up to 18+ injury poisons.

b)Inhaled poison availability.

like above. We have 3 inhaled poisons and they are all in the same levels 15/16/16.
It needs much better spread, from low to high

c)wasting poison on failed attacks.

it simply doesn't make sense that a missed attack (not an attack that hit but did not damage) wastes the poison. I mean, i can cover my weapon in it, carry it for ten hours, sheath and unsheath it, play with it, etc, and not waste it, but the second i swing at the air the poison is gone? That seems way too excessive of a nerf to a questionable AND quite expensive equipment for no reason at all.

I agree with everything you said here. One suggestion would be to create a system where lower level poisons where still useful at higher levels. Like heightening spells, but based on crafter's skill. The current way poisons DCs work if your not using a poison with an item level close to ur level it's basically useless. This would open up a larger selection of poisons available to use and allow a low level inhale poison to remain useful (although they would have to make a low level inhale poison first).

The only problem I have with not waisting poisons on failed attacks is the rogue improved poison skill would need reworked to offer something else of value.