Rules Query - Classes

[Sean Foster]

I am creating a Dwarven Fighter with a Blacksmith background, using the straight 10 stat option.

1)
The Blacksmith background gives him Lore-Smithing@Trained & Crafting-Blacksmith@?*
1st Fighter gives a signature skill of crafting. If I choose Crafting-Blacksmith@Trained for being a fighter as well as getting it for my Background, do I get to upgrade the Proficiency Rank by a further rank? Assuming it is "Trained", can I use my fighter class level to raise it from "Trained"(*) to "Expert".

* Looking at the Blacksmith background text it does not actually state what Proficiency Rank you get it at.

2) On Table 3-13 p88, a fighter gets the following class features @ 1st
i) Ancestry feat,
ii) Attack of opportunity,
iii) Background,
iv) Fighter feat,
v) Initial proficiencies

Is i) a _SECOND_ Ancestory feat, to the one I got from my race? ie I now get another for choosing the Fighter Class. I assume not, but the i) & iii) listings should be removed, as it complicates the issue.

3) In PF1 you got feats for Character Level and for Class Level. Is this now the case? i.e. as you progress thru character levels now, your class gives you your only chance to get extra Ancestral, Fighter, General & Skill Feats.

[Seisho]

The blacksmith background does not give crafting, only the lore

the signature skill does not increase your ank

you only get one ancestry feat per character (if you don't houserule a second one which i think is a good idea)

and character lvl IS class level since the old multiclassing is gone so 3 is not relevant

[Sean Foster]

The Blackmith Background states: "You gain the Specialty Crafting skill feat for blacksmithing, and you’re trained in the Smithing Lore skill."

So you get a "skill feat"(?) (that has a prerequisite necessitating that you get the skill as part of you class) that gives you +2 to the skill

and

the skill Lore-Smithing @ Trained.

So I then choose Craft-Blacksmithing@Trained as a Fighter Signature Skill, to get the benefit of the background feat. Getting a total of +3 with the skill at 1st. Wow, I am underwhelmed.

In PF1 you put 1 skill point into a class skill and you got +4 in that skill - which is a lot simpler and a "+1" bit better. Arguing the whole DC thing does not override this lack of reasonable benefit for added complexity.

Remembering the bonus for your class level can be upto +20 compared to +5 for Legendary and the Speciality Crafting Skill feat. PF1 gave you +3 in a skill for a feat or 2x +2, even those were underwhelming. If you used the +2 to +6 for level from another RPG the +5 looks a lot more worth while.

I think the d20 ideal of skill points is still good and threading your way thru background and such to extract such minor benefits is pointless. Let the player say " I want to Character to have a background in blacksmithing" so I will invest a couple of points into suitable skills - much simpler.

At least the other game makes the whole thing a little better with the various Personality/Ideal/Bond/Flaw thing associated with each "Background".

[shroudb]

Sean Foster wrote:

The Blackmith Background states: "You gain the Specialty Crafting skill feat for blacksmithing, and you’re trained in the Smithing Lore skill."

So you get a "skill feat"(?) (that has a prerequisite necessitating that you get the skill as part of you class) that gives you +2 to the skill

and

the skill Lore-Smithing @ Trained.

So I then choose Craft-Blacksmithing@Trained as a Fighter Signature Skill, to get the benefit of the background feat. Getting a total of +3 with the skill at 1st. Wow, I am underwhelmed.

In PF1 you put 1 skill point into a class skill and you got +4 in that skill - which is a lot simpler and a "+1" bit better. Arguing the whole DC thing does not override this lack of reasonable benefit for added complexity.

Remembering the bonus for your class level can be upto +20 compared to +5 for Legendary and the Speciality Crafting Skill feat. PF1 gave you +3 in a skill for a feat or 2x +2, even those were underwhelming. If you used the +2 to +6 for level from another RPG the +5 looks a lot more worth while.

I think the d20 ideal of skill points is still good and threading your way thru background and such to extract such minor benefits is pointless. Let the player say " I want to Character to have a background in blacksmithing" so I will invest a couple of points into suitable skills - much simpler.

At least the other game makes the whole thing a little better with the various Personality/Ideal/Bond/Flaw thing associated with each "Background".

you don't need to "qualify" for the free feat, you get it either way.

you also don't need to "choose" a signature skill, you get all signature skills for fighter.

what you get to choose is where you put your starting skills (remember you can level ALL skills up to expert, signature skills just allow to level up to legendary)

as for the bonus being insignificant... that's not true, not true at all.

"bounded accuracy" which is what pf2 is based around makes all those +1s much MUCH more important than the +3 of skill focus of old pf.

as an example, using the craft skill since you took that.

let's say that at level 15 you decide to make a level 15 item.

the average dc for a common item of that level is 35.

we now look at 2 characters, a legendary smith with specialty crafting, and a normal guy trained in crafting.

let's say both have a +2 bonus from master tools (quite expensive, to the point that's not sure that someone just trained would want to spend on it, but let's say for argument's sake)

both also have an int of 14

so, 15+3(legendary)+2(int)+2 (tools)+2 (specialty crafting)= 24
and 15+0(trained)+2(int)+2 (tools) =19

"just 5" points difference.

vs the DC35 it means that our legendery crafter has a 50%chance to make the item
our simply trained random guy has only 25% to make it.

so, the legendary crafter has double the chance to actually pull it off.

furthermore, the legendary smith will only crit fail at 1, meaning he's mostly risk free
while the just-trained guy will fail 25% of the time (equal to his success) and lose 10% og his money in doing so

moreover, in the even that they actually succeed, legendary crafter would gain 35gp/day, while the trained guy would only make 10gp/day

furthermore, at level 16, the legendary crafter now meets the prereq for impeccable craft, meaning that all successes are crits, gaining 70gp/day as oppossed to trained guy now getting (again at half the chance) 12.5gp/day

that means, that in a month of downtime, the legendary crafter has gained about a 12th level treasure value
(as a reference, this is what a 16lvl character wbl looks like:
1 15th, 2 14th, 1 13th, 2 12th 3,250 gp)

p.s. (yes, i was making a blacksmith today and delved into crafting quite a bit :P)