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I did a thing!
After getting into Star Wars legends for some reason that I don't remember and due to the world building I'm doing partially based on an in game joke there came a need for proper lightsaber combat.
So without further ado: The Weapon Styles.
I tried to keep the styles as close to the spirit of the original while trying to balance them. The one exception is Niman which is essentially "it's easy to learn but really sucks in comparison to all the other ones" form so I made it instead the two weapon spellweaving style because it has some forms and strategies around that.
I'm just looking for some input to make sure I didn't completely break anything because one group isn't the most effective playtest.
I took a quick glance and I think it's pretty good.
However, there are several things I will comment on. Further I'm not sure about the prerequisites so I won't mention them. :)
Shii Cho(The whole chain): I disagree with the description of the style and the overall aim of the feat chain. Shii Cho is suppose to be the most basic of the light saber forms coming straight from traditional swordsmanship. This feels way too specific. I think it should have more general bonuses or something.
Makashi Style: The extra free 5 foot step per round seems way too powerful. Maybe as a later ability?
Soresu (The whole chain): I think this captures the style well. Might be too powerful though.
Ataru Flurry: Moving after a pounce? So I basically spring attack full attack you. Way too good.
Shien(The whole chain): Good. I think it could use some melee aspects though.
Djem So (The whole chain): I think you nailed the feeling of the style. Not sure how well it's balanced it may or may not be. That being said I think it's otherwise fine. :)
Niman (The whole chain): Description seem off. Is this made just for a Magus? Seems too specific for such a generalist style. I would do something more along the lines of 3 times per day(total) you can use something from first few styles of a similar feat level per day.
Juyo (The whole chain): Looks good.
Vaapad (The whole chain): Not sure. Good I think.
Took out a "not" from the one sentence. Note I was not being a sarcastic A-hole, that was a typo. :)
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I took a quick glance and I think it's pretty good.
However, there are several things I will comment on. Further I'm not sure about the prerequisites so I won't mention them. :)
Shii Cho(The whole chain): I disagree with the description of the style and the overall aim of the feat chain. Shii Cho is suppose to be the most basic of the light saber forms coming straight from traditional swordsmanship. This feels way too specific. I think it should have more general bonuses or something.
Makashi Style: The extra free 5 foot step per round seems way too powerful. Maybe as a later ability?
Soresu (The whole chain): I think this captures the style well. Might be too powerful though.
Ataru Flurry: Moving after a pounce? So I basically spring attack full attack you. Way too good.
Shien(The whole chain): Good. I think it could use some melee aspects though.
Djem So (The whole chain): I think you nailed the feeling of the style. Not sure how well it's balanced it may or may not be. That being said I think it's otherwise fine. :)
Niman (The whole chain): Description seem off. Is this made just for a Magus? Seems too specific for such a generalist style. I would do something more along the lines of 3 times per day(total) you can use something from first few styles of a similar feat level per day.
Juyo (The whole chain): Looks good.
Vaapad (The whole chain): Not sure. Good I think.
Thanks for the Feedback!
To address some concerns:
Form 1: Shii Cho is based around disarming the enemy using power attacks to knock a weapon out of the enemy's hands, and wide sweeping attacks to cut off their angles. I tried to capture that aspect, althpugh I was also thinking about a basic style following the dazzling display/shatter defenses/deadly stroke tree focusing on improving the flow of those feats.
Form 2: The reason I'm not too concerned with Makashi style is because of Following step which gives 10ft. albeit as an immediate action. Perhaps moving around some of the abilities is in order however.
Form 3: Forcing a fighter to take the total defense action means no full attack, which I reasoned to be a decent trade off. Still you might be rght, I'd love some ideas to fix that.
Form 4: I based Ataru Flurry on the Mobile Fighter's Rapid attack, by forcing him to attack one target instead of multiple, I may have forgotten to remove the first attack however, I'll go fix that.
Form 5: Shien came off a form made to counter blasters while Djem So was focused on melee, The melee component of Shien is the Opportune parry and riposte deed which is a prereq of the style, although maybe I'm putting too much faith in the ability.
I'm also still worried about the power of Djem So Counter specifically, I might change it so that it requires an additional AoO to riposte or immediate action, wielder's choice.
Form 6: I tried to keep to the spirit of all the styles but Niman seemed to be the style one chose if one was to essentially ignore lightsaber combat in favour of focusing on the force so it doesn't make sense to sink three combat feats into a style when you aren't looking to fight much. However Niman also teaches the weaving of force attacks (which for pathfinder I read as spells) into their combat style and has some dual saber forms. I basically took those two aspects and ran with them making less of the "Corpse of Geonosis" Niman and more of the "Exar Kun" Niman.
Form 7: Vaapad is a very difficult one to convert into pathfinder, I think I did well to capture the raw power of the style while making it situational enough to not be completely broken, I'm honestly not too sure about it either.
Some feedback:
Unless I'm misreading it, Shii Cho Style (Combat, Style) doesn't actually do anything. I can perform a disarm in place of an attack without this feat (as many times as I want per round, too).
Is the purpose of Shii Cho Angle (Combat, Style) to make attacks after your first have a greater chance of landing? It seems like I'd get limited use out of it (more I'm dual wielding). After reading it, I immediately wanted it to say, "until the end of your next turn."
Shii Cho Sweep (Combat, Style) is an interesting way of getting Greater Cleave and Whirlwind, but not necessarily a cheaper one.
I'd like Makashi Style (Combat, Style) to give the extra 5' step after an attack
For Makashi Bladework (Combat, Style), please explicitly state whether that's in addition to other bonuses or instead of other bonuses. As written, it will probably cause stacking arguments.
Makashi Resistance (Combat, Style) if you're making a Disarm attempt, it should be against a CMD of "10 + the enemy’s caster level + the level of the spell." Since this is a disarm check, CMD bonuses should apply. Also you're missing an "or." Maybe you mean, "When an enemy casts a spell with you as a target or uses a spell like ability targeting you..."? It's hard to tell whether this ability is specific to SLAs as written.
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Some feedback:
Unless I'm misreading it, Shii Cho Style (Combat, Style) doesn't actually do anything. I can perform a disarm in place of an attack without this feat (as many times as I want per round, too).
Is the purpose of Shii Cho Angle (Combat, Style) to make attacks after your first have a greater chance of landing? It seems like I'd get limited use out of it (more I'm dual wielding). After reading it, I immediately wanted it to say, "until the end of your next turn."
Shii Cho Sweep (Combat, Style) is an interesting way of getting Greater Cleave and Whirlwind, but not necessarily a cheaper one.
I'd like Makashi Style (Combat, Style) to give the extra 5' step after an attack
For Makashi Bladework (Combat, Style), please explicitly state whether that's in addition to other bonuses or instead of other bonuses. As written, it will probably cause stacking arguments.
Makashi Resistance (Combat, Style) if you're making a Disarm attempt, it should be against a CMD of "10 + the enemy’s caster level + the level of the spell." Since this is a disarm check, CMD bonuses should apply. Also you're missing an "or." Maybe you mean, "When an enemy casts a spell with you as a target or uses a spell like ability targeting you..."? It's hard to tell whether this ability is specific to SLAs as written.
Shii Cho Style: Turns out your right, changed to function more like shield slam.
Shii Cho angle: Changed till end of next turn because it mechanically makes more sense.Makashi style: "after an attack" added, to give it the fencer's footwork feel it's supposed to have.
Makashi Bladework: "in addition to normal modifiers" added
Makashi resistance: Wording changed to "When an enemy targets you with a spell or spell like ability" to clear up confusion.
Makashi Resistance is supposed to function as a Martial's way to counterspell making a disarm chack instead of a dispel check vs the a slightly higher Dispel DC due to disamr CMBs being higher.
I'm having trouble quoting you.
Anyways, I looked up the description for Shii Cho and your's is accurate but missing the bit about it being the most basic of forms. That being said your initial mechanics are more correct that I had at first thought.
Also, yes I forgot that you had all those prerequisites in there for the styles so Shien makes more sense to me now. Plus yeah it's technically part of form 5 along with Djem So. Splitting them up was a good idea.
I think Niman still needs the most work.
I agree Vaapad would be difficult to put in the game as there isn't much info on it. I think it was only used once correct? Mace vs the Emperor?
Makashi resistance: Wording changed to "When an enemy targets you with a spell or spell like ability" to clear up confusion.
Makashi Resistance is supposed to function as a Martial's way to counterspell making a disarm chack instead of a dispel check vs the a slightly higher Dispel DC due to disamr CMBs being higher.
Ok. Makes sense.
Keep your stacking modifiers in mind. A level 13 Fighter with a 20 Dex and a +3 weapon (Who has Improved and Greater Disarm, Weapon Training 3) will have a 13 +5 +3 +2 +2 +3 = +28 to the roll (assuming he is making the Disarm at his highest BAB). Against a level 15 caster casting a level 8 spell (10+15+8 = DC 33) he needs a 5 or higher to counter it. If traits, class bonuses, and Disarm-quality weapons (like the Double Chicken Saber) apply, then he could even push this lower.
If you don't intend this to be nigh-spell immunity, then maybe consider adding the Caster's Intelligence? Or maybe make the Makashi user avoid the effect instead of countering the spell? I'm not sure what is the flavor you're aiming for.
Also, I'm assuming you mean to leave the Makashi user vulnerable to area-effect spells that don't specifically target him?
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I'm having trouble quoting you.
No problem.
Anyways, I looked up the description for Shii Cho and your's is accurate but missing the bit about it being the most basic of forms. That being said your initial mechanics are more correct that I had at first thought.
Hmm, perhaps I can focus on making it feel more like the basic form, right now I have the basic aspect only by making it the one a character can access earliest at 3rd level, as opposed to 4th level for Soresu and 5th for most of the others.
Also, yes I forgot that you had all those prerequisites in there for the styles so Shien makes more sense to me now. Plus yeah it's technically part of form 5 along with Djem So. Splitting them up was a good idea.
Thank you! :)
I think Niman still needs the most work.
Yeah, I'll start working on an alternate at the bottom of the doc with my alternate Shii Cho for a style based more on flexibility and one that a diplomat would see use for, while not being useless.
EDIT: Definitely doing that, and renaming what I currently have to Jar'Kai because I actually managed to miss that while making these.I agree Vaapad would be difficult to put in the game as there isn't much info on it. I think it was only used once correct? Mace vs the Emperor?
That and some legends books and comics, all of my research on it came from the Wookiepedia article.
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Makashi resistance: Wording changed to "When an enemy targets you with a spell or spell like ability" to clear up confusion.
Makashi Resistance is supposed to function as a Martial's way to counterspell making a disarm chack instead of a dispel check vs the a slightly higher Dispel DC due to disamr CMBs being higher.Ok. Makes sense.
Keep your stacking modifiers in mind. A level 13 Fighter with a 20 Dex and a +3 weapon (Who has Improved and Greater Disarm, Weapon Training 3) will have a 13 +5 +3 +2 +2 +3 = +28 to the roll (assuming he is making the Disarm at his highest BAB). Against a level 15 caster casting a level 8 spell (10+15+8 = DC 33) he needs a 5 or higher to counter it. If traits, class bonuses, and Disarm-quality weapons (like the Double Chicken Saber) apply, then he could even push this lower.
If you don't intend this to be nigh-spell immunity, then maybe consider adding the Caster's Intelligence? Or maybe make the Makashi user avoid the effect instead of countering the spell? I'm not sure what is the flavor you're aiming for.
Also, I'm assuming you mean to leave the Makashi user vulnerable to area-effect spells that don't specifically target him?
Makashi Resistance: added Spellcaster's spellcasting ability modifier to DC and added a specifically to denote that it is against single target spells.