Question on Goblins and Class Levels

[Brian Turner 355]

I know that normal goblins have a Cr of 1/3. But if they are given a class level does this increase the Cr any. IN ROTRL they make the goblins, goblin Warriors 1.so does this make them a cr 1 or do they stay the same at cr 1/3? Thanks for the help.

[Majuba]

A goblin warrior 1(or any npc class 1) is CR 1/3. A PC class would be CR 1/2. Two npc would also be 1/2. After that they go up to CR 1 and on.

[rando1000]

Goblins CR by class. Any 1st level NPC class goblin would be CR 1/3, any PC class goblin would be CR 1/2.

EDIT: ninja'd.

[Brian Turner 355]

Okay but how do i tell the difference between a NPC warrior and a PC warrior. Should i always assume that any creature/monster given a class in a printed adventure is an NPC version instead of a PC version. Sorry if this seems like a silly question but im still new at all this. Thanks for the help.

[Rysky]

There isn't a difference between an NPC Warrior and a PC Warrior.

Warrior is a NPC class.

Fighter is a PC class.

Of course you can give them to the other side of you wish (if you want your enemies to be stronger, or your players to be weaker and thus have a bigger challenge).

[Claxon]

You're confusing things a bit here Brian.

People are referring to NPC classes.

Those classes are:
Adepts
Aristocrats
Commoners
Experts
Warriors

NPCs can be made with PC classes, but PC classes are more powerful and affect CR differently than NPC classes.

A goblin could be a warrior 1 (NPC class) or fighter 1 (PC class).

Fighter is basically the PC class equivalent of the warrior NPC class.

[Brian Turner 355]

Yea I'm definitely confusing things a bit. I've gotten used to think of warrior and fighter as meaning the same class as a player but i think i need to start making these distinctions since im being a DM now. Thanks for the help.I definitely need to reread the section on using npc and pc classes on adventures. Thanks for all the help.

[lemeres]

The warrior NPC class is just full BAB and martial weapons. Unlike PC classes, it doesn't get anything else as it levels.

Although the difference between a goblin warrior and a goblin fighter isn't necessarily that big at level 1.

Which admittedly, could make a lot of difference. With two feats, it could pull off a reach build at level 1 (power attack+combat reflexes). And since goblins have a racial weapon that is reach... it wouldn't be unusual.

So yes. if you want to differentiate your goblin warriors from fighters, give the warriors just the dogslicers, while giving the fighters a nice horsechopper. That will make the fighters more deserving of their CR.

For other PC classes, it is easier to distinguish between from the NPCs early on.

[Brf]

A goblin fighter would start with 10hp too, just like a PC fighter. The warrior would only start with 5.

[lemeres]

Brf wrote:

A goblin fighter would start with 10hp too, just like a PC fighter. The warrior would only start with 5.

oh yes... forgot that rule about how many creatures start with only 1/2 hp per hit dice.

[Dasrak]

Whether an NPC uses PC classes or NPC classes also determines its stat array. Those with PC class levels get 15/14/13/12/10/8, while those with only NPC class levels get 13/12/11/10/9/8. Monsters with no classes have it worst, with 11/11/11/10/10/10. For this reason, adding a PC class level to a monster or NPC is one of the most CR-efficient ways to make it stronger, since so many things improve when you add PC class levels. It's always worthwhile to do a "sanity check" at the end because it's so easy to create NPC's that are way stronger than their CR would imply.

[lemeres]

Dasrak wrote:

Whether an NPC uses PC classes or NPC classes also determines its stat array. Those with PC class levels get 15/14/13/12/10/8, while those with only NPC class levels get 13/12/11/10/9/8. Monsters with no classes have it worst, with 11/11/11/10/10/10. For this reason, adding a PC class level to a monster or NPC is one of the most CR-efficient ways to make it stronger, since so many things improve when you add PC class levels. It's always worthwhile to do a "sanity check" at the end because it's so easy to create NPC's that are way stronger than their CR would imply.

yeah... the whole 'experienced horsechopper' thing should likely be reserved for bosses. Because he would likely get an AoO off on everyone that goes at him, and he would likely have great AC. So most party members would be at risk of getting hit twice at least... not great for the survival chances of a level 1 character.

And if you go with the CR system and aim for a challenging encounter... that could mean 4 horse choppers quite easily... maybe even 6.

Good use of reach tactics is for when you are aiming for a battle of attrition at low levels.