Alchemist Multiple Bomb Throwing


Rules Questions

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The cited FAQ for bombs specifically calls out Two-Weapon Fighting and Fast Bombs.


Ridiculon wrote:
Saethori that is not what two weapon fighting is. Two Weapon fighting allows you to add an extra attack to your full attack, full attacks are made in order:

Even if this is true, what does it matter?


Quote:
The warlock's ability specifically calls out that it may be used with itself for TWF.

Yeah but so does the alchemist FAQ and you're insisting that one doesn't count.


james014Aura wrote:
The cited FAQ for bombs specifically calls out Two-Weapon Fighting and Fast Bombs.

Yes but catch 22, apparently.


Rub-Eta wrote:

We're in the 'rules questions' part of the messageboards. Please refer to rules when making a statements such as this. Nowhere is it stated that you can't have more than one bomb at a time.

Take a look at Fast Bomb and the FAQ:

Fast Bomb wrote:
An alchemist with this discovery can quickly create enough bombs to throw more than one in a single round. The alchemist can prepare and throw additional bombs as a full-round action if his base attack bonus is high enough to grant him additional attacks. This functions just like a full-attack with a ranged weapon.

To extrapolate: "as a full-round action" - It's a separate action, not a full-attack. This means that you can not use any other attacks/weapons than bombs, while using the Fast Bomb discovery (since never is it specified to be allowed during this full-round action).

However, the discovery mentions that it works as "full-attack with a ranged weapon" - This does not make it into a full-attack and you still can't perform attacks with a different weapon during this full-round action. It does, however, mean that anything that applies to a full-attack with a ranged weapon also applies to this (Fast Bomb) full-round action, as confirmed by the FAQ:
FAQ wrote:

If an alchemist has the Fast bombs discovery, can he use Rapid Shot, Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, haste, and similar abilities and effects to add more attacks?

As written, yes, all of these apply because fast bombs "functions just like a full-attack with a ranged weapon."
This all very clearly points towards TWF being possible with multiple bombs.

Ah, as a full-round action... not as a full-attack action... doh. That is different. GG

I thought that the FAQ/ability was only talking about a regular full-attack action, in which case all my above arguments made sense. But its not, so they don't lol. My bad, should have read the discovery again.


Ridiculon wrote:

Creating and throwing a bomb is a single action (weather it is a standard or an attack in a full-attack action does not matter), the action ends in the bomb not existing anymore (a lot like ray attacks). TWF will apply to bombs, but you cannot have more than one bomb at a time, so you need a second weapon to benefit from TWF.

...
Saethori that is not what two weapon fighting is. Two Weapon fighting allows you to add an extra attack to your full attack, full attacks are made in order

Also, if using this logic, the Fast Bomb discovery shouldn't work at all.


Ok wow, I was afraid this would turn into a TWF + Bomb argument as thats what i've seen in many other threads. But Piazo's FAQ clearly states that TWF does work with Alchemist Bombs and therefor that was not part of my original question.

Now back to my original question please. I believe Torbyne may have answered it for me.
At level 8 I have a BAB = +6/+1

So if I threw all 5 bombs would the attack rolls be as Torbyne has said: +6/+6/+6/+6/+2?

"2 from BAB
1 from Haste
1 from Rapid Shot
1 from Two Weapon Fighting

Attacks are at 8 BAB + 1 Haste + 1 Throw Anything -2 Rapid Shot -2 Two Weapon Fighting, so +6/+6/+6/+6/+2. This makes the assumption that bombs are light weapons but this is not stated anywhere that i have seen."


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It would not be; he assumed BAB +8, which is level 11 for you (alchemist 3/4 BAB). You have BAB +6, so:

+6/+1 to hit
Haste: +7/+7/+2
Throw Anything: +8/+8/+3
Rapid Shot: +6/+6/+6/+1
TWF: +4/+4/+4/+4/-1

Of course, this ignores your dexterity. If you have Dex 14, then you would have:
+6/+6/+6/+6/+1
Or at 16 dex: +7/+7/+7/+7/+2
(For your full attack bonus, we need dex, sorry)


Whoops, yeah, i goofed on BAB bonus :/


james014Aura wrote:

It would not be; he assumed BAB +8, which is level 11 for you (alchemist 3/4 BAB). You have BAB +6, so:

+6/+1 to hit
Haste: +7/+7/+2
Throw Anything: +8/+8/+3
Rapid Shot: +6/+6/+6/+1
TWF: +4/+4/+4/+4/-1

Of course, this ignores your dexterity. If you have Dex 14, then you would have:
+6/+6/+6/+6/+1
Or at 16 dex: +7/+7/+7/+7/+2
(For your full attack bonus, we need dex, sorry)

Ok my Dex is 20, and becomes 24 with a Mutagen.

I also have Point Blank Shot +1 and the Firebug trait +1 (fire bombs)


Rub-Eta wrote:
Ridiculon wrote:

Creating and throwing a bomb is a single action (weather it is a standard or an attack in a full-attack action does not matter), the action ends in the bomb not existing anymore (a lot like ray attacks). TWF will apply to bombs, but you cannot have more than one bomb at a time, so you need a second weapon to benefit from TWF.

...
Saethori that is not what two weapon fighting is. Two Weapon fighting allows you to add an extra attack to your full attack, full attacks are made in order
Also, if using this logic, the Fast Bomb discovery shouldn't work at all.

How would it not work?


Okay, then:
BAB +6/+1
Haste +7/+7/+2
Firebug +8/+8/+3
Point-Blank +9/+9/+4
Throw Anything +10/+10/+5
Dex PRE-mutagen +15/+15/+10

Rapid and Two-Weapon: +11/+11/+11/+11/+6
Mutagen: +13/+13/+13/+13/+8

All at touch.


james014Aura wrote:

Okay, then:

BAB +6/+1
Haste +7/+7/+2
Firebug +8/+8/+3
Point-Blank +9/+9/+4
Throw Anything +10/+10/+5
Dex PRE-mutagen +15/+15/+10

Rapid and Two-Weapon: +11/+11/+11/+11/+6
Mutagen: +13/+13/+13/+13/+8

All at touch.

Thank you this helps me a lot!

The only other question I have is lets say I only decide to throw 3 bombs, would i simply add the last three numbers such as the +13/+13/+8?


I just thought about something, does the Fast Bombs Discovery overlap the BAB or does it add to it? What I mean is do i start off with 2 throws because of BAB and then add another with the FB Discovery, or does the FB Discovery enhance the original 2 so that I can add the other feats?


Fast Bombs doesn't grant any new bombs. What it does is let you throw bombs as a full attack, as opposed to the usual for bombs which limits then to one a round due to standard action gating.

So once you have Fast Bombs, then you can full attack with bombs based on your base attack bonus, feats, etcetera. It is entirely possible that at the time you get the discovery, you have no iterative or additional attacks with which to benefit from it.


Saethori wrote:

Fast Bombs doesn't grant any new bombs. What it does is let you throw bombs as a full attack, as opposed to the usual for bombs which limits then to one a round due to standard action gating.

So once you have Fast Bombs, then you can full attack with bombs based on your base attack bonus, feats, etcetera. It is entirely possible that at the time you get the discovery, you have no iterative or additional attacks with which to benefit from it.

Thank you, that's exactly what I was wondering :-)


Ridiculon wrote:
If you are only wielding a single weapon it is never in your off hand, therefore the only way for you to be wielding a weapon in your off hand (as TWF requires) is to be wielding two weapons at the same time.

This FAQ says that using TWF is an active decision you can make. That FAQ states that at the moment you choose to get an extra attack, your second hand becomes your off-hand.

The second bomb is obviously a second weapon. You do throw a weapon from each hand. If what you say was true, you could never TWF with thrown weapons, because at the moment you throw your MH weapon (i.e. before you have a chance to make an OH attack), you are no longer wielding two weapons. And, as mentioned, Warlock's Mystic Bolts ("the bolt appears only briefly") say your reading is simply wrong.

Edit @ _Ozy_: Agreed.


When it's just one person arguing against everyone else + FAQ, chances are if you haven't convinced him by now, you never will. I suggest we move on.

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