Gamers are Gamers, No Matter the (Trans)Gender


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Grand Lodge

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www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PzpfI5f0PU&feature=youtu.be&a

Great story. Wish I had a balpeen hammer and 2 minutes with every griefer involved.

Scarab Sages

Your link doesn't seem to work...

Grand Lodge

The link works, its just not hyperlinked.


Maccabee wrote:

Hyperlink

Great story. Wish I had a balpeen hammer and 2 minutes with every griefer involved.

There. Now it's hyperlinked. :)

Scarab Sages

And it still doens't work for me, just takes me back to the paizo main page :-(


feytharn wrote:
And it still doens't work for me, just takes me back to the paizo main page :-(

That's odd. It worked fine for me when I copied and pasted it, but you're right, the hyperlink doesn't function right. Let me try this again.

Does it work now?


Yep, that works. Must have copied not quite right when I did it the first time. Sorry about that.


@Maccabee, thanks for the link. I have friends that are not gamers but are transgender. There needs to be more education toward ending the hate and prejudice against Transgendered people.


feytharn wrote:
And it still doens't work for me, just takes me back to the paizo main page :-(

ditto

Scarab Sages

Many thanks lynora, it works fine now (strangely the original link didn't, I know it wasn't hyperlinked, but even C+P didn't work) amd thank you Maccabee for the link.


Awesome video, definitely deserves to get shared around the internet.


What happened? This is of great interest to me, but Youtube is blocked at my Job Corps.


A gamer commentator interviewed a transgendered gamer about their experiences and a basic intro about why they were transgendered. Because they recent StarCraft 2 North American champ is also transgendered, but is generating some negative comments from the community.

Silver Crusade

If he or she is really of the opposite gender and wanted to change, what is the problem? Maybe he or she really wants to be what he or she really is.


GM Elton wrote:
If he or she is really of the opposite gender and wanted to change, what is the problem? Maybe he or she really wants to be what he or she really is.

The linked video is done by a guy who regularly posts videos about video games. He saw an issue, a transgendered player who was the target of a lot of negative comments in his community.

So he used his show to interview a transgendered gamer (different from the one targeted by comments) to help gamers understand who transgendered people are. That's it. There's nothing negative in the video itself, just a guy trying to spread a little knowledge in the hopes of reducing hate/fear.


I am reminded of Iain Banks and his culture novels, a culture so advanced, they would swap sex just because, no true sense of being. We are not there yet, and transgender is not common, not normalised. There might be something in a truly confused and partial socialisation, rebounding off expectations, what you are being raised as, something seeming off.

Ah but what do we know i suppose? You are not you, there is another you, a true self? But you need help mentally, and to be physiologically transformed, into that form that you see more as you, but you will never be 100%, some things will stick out. How much we can transform, but there is always a limit!

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

As a transgender gamer girl myself, that video was fantastic! Thank you for sharing it.


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http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/591565 .

Scarab Sages

So... someone is good at gaming. Hurray?

I may not agree with the whole sex change thing, but that doesn't make (insert gender specific pronoun here) any less of a gamer, which... was something we all knew already.

Again... yay?

Shadow Lodge

Davor wrote:

So... someone is good at gaming. Hurray?

I may not agree with the whole sex change thing, but that doesn't make (insert gender specific pronoun here) any less of a gamer, which... was something we all knew already.

Again... yay?

I don't think anyone thinks she is less of a gamer but they are being a*!&+#~s to her and harassing her - the interviewer hopes that he can help reduce that type of behavior in the gaming community.

Also, the correct gender specific pronoun in this case would be "her".

Dark Archive

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Asphere wrote:
Davor wrote:

So... someone is good at gaming. Hurray?

I may not agree with the whole sex change thing, but that doesn't make (insert gender specific pronoun here) any less of a gamer, which... was something we all knew already.

Again... yay?

I don't think anyone thinks she is less of a gamer but they are being a~&$&%!s to her and harassing her - the interviewer hopes that he can help reduce that type of behavior in the gaming community.

Also, the correct gender specific pronoun in this case would be "her".

Yeah, as a transgendered woman myself, the pronoun is definitely "Her". Like they explain in the video, the right pronoun is whatever they consider themselves. :)


They can try and define the correct pronoun, but others can also say, no, sorry, you aren't entirely are you?

For instance, the... person in the vid, their arms looked to me like a man's arms trying to masquerade as a woman's arms. The rest was a somewhat convincing disguise/bluff, but thing stick out (no pun intended) for those that pay attention.

The attempt to become something you are not, but which you think you are, leaves all sorts of intriguing tells in the wake of partial transformations. They can try and say, no I am a she now, she she she, purely a she, but another person isn't entirely wrong if they say, what of this over here!

So if someone was transgendered, I'd have no problem with them being whatever, but if they try to bullsh*t me, I am going to look into their eyes and ask, "really? Is that so... Jimmy?" Because there is seizing your own identity, and saying you are this, but there is also bullshi**ing other people, and claiming/trying to be what you feel is right for you, but which isn't entirely correct.

The truth is they are somewhere in between he and she. Transgender therefore works.

Dark Archive

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3.5 Loyalist wrote:

They can try and define the correct pronoun, but others can also say, no, sorry, you aren't entirely are you?

For instance, the... person in the vid, their arms looked to me like a man's arms trying to masquerade as a woman's arms. The rest was a somewhat convincing disguise/bluff, but thing stick out (no pun intended) for those that pay attention.

The attempt to become something you are not, but which you think you are, leaves all sorts of intriguing tells in the wake of partial transformations. They can try and say, no I am a she now, she she she, purely a she, but another person isn't entirely wrong if they say, what of this over here!

So if someone was transgendered, I'd have no problem with them being whatever, but if they try to bullsh*t me, I am going to look into their eyes and ask, "really? Is that so... Jimmy?" Because there is seizing your own identity, and saying you are this, but there is also bullshi**ing other people, and claiming/trying to be what you feel is right for you, but which isn't entirely correct.

The truth is they are somewhere in between he and she. Transgender therefore works.

Except that's a very uninformed, and highly disrespectful way of viewing it. If someone identifies to you as a woman, then leave it at that. Don't pry, don't ask, just accept what they say and move on, plain and simple. Otherwise, you just come off as a jackass.

Believe me, it's not easy struggling with who you know you are on the inside, and what you were born as. Trying to reconcile those isn't easy, and when you've come as far as some transwomen have then having someone look at you like that and blatantly call everything you are bull, well...that can be one of the most traumatic and hurtful things that can happen. So just...be open-minded, be accepting. They're not trying to deceive you, because to them that's what they are. It's who they were before that was the deceit, as far as they're concerned. A mask or a costume they put on because they had to.

I get not approving, and I get not understanding...but at least try to be nice...


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Except it is entirely correct - autopsies of transgendered individuals, both those who take hormone replacement and those who have identified as transgendered but do not treat it, show that brain construction is as they identify. So unless you consider people born with birth defects (say, being born without gonads, or working ones anyway, whether those are ovaries or testicles) as not what they say, then transgendered people are exactly what they say.

It's a birth defect, and like any other, it doesn't change who they are...it simply means that society has mislabelled them and that ignorant and/or hateful people insist they are something else.


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3.5 Loyalist wrote:

They can try and define the correct pronoun, but others can also say, no, sorry, you aren't entirely are you?

For instance, the... person in the vid, their arms looked to me like a man's arms trying to masquerade as a woman's arms. The rest was a somewhat convincing disguise/bluff, but thing stick out (no pun intended) for those that pay attention.

The attempt to become something you are not, but which you think you are, leaves all sorts of intriguing tells in the wake of partial transformations. They can try and say, no I am a she now, she she she, purely a she, but another person isn't entirely wrong if they say, what of this over here!

So if someone was transgendered, I'd have no problem with them being whatever, but if they try to bullsh*t me, I am going to look into their eyes and ask, "really? Is that so... Jimmy?" Because there is seizing your own identity, and saying you are this, but there is also bullshi**ing other people, and claiming/trying to be what you feel is right for you, but which isn't entirely correct.

The truth is they are somewhere in between he and she. Transgender therefore works.

The word "gender" refers to a socially constructed identity, not a biological definition. So, no, she would be a she. Not somewhere in between.

Silver Crusade

I have enough trouble keeping character sex's straight with males playing females and females playing males..

They are a gamer, they say their female, good enough for me, I might be curious, but honestly I would rather just play games with them...

Though in some of my games he / she / it are thrown around because I can't keep the characters sex straight...

And these things occur in the game world as well, magic gender change can cause problems with some players.

But maybe if we use more instances in game, other gamers will be more tolerant?


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3.5 Loyalist wrote:

They can try and define the correct pronoun, but others can also say, no, sorry, you aren't entirely are you?

For instance, the... person in the vid, their arms looked to me like a man's arms trying to masquerade as a woman's arms. The rest was a somewhat convincing disguise/bluff, but thing stick out (no pun intended) for those that pay attention.

The attempt to become something you are not, but which you think you are, leaves all sorts of intriguing tells in the wake of partial transformations. They can try and say, no I am a she now, she she she, purely a she, but another person isn't entirely wrong if they say, what of this over here!

So if someone was transgendered, I'd have no problem with them being whatever, but if they try to bullsh*t me, I am going to look into their eyes and ask, "really? Is that so... Jimmy?" Because there is seizing your own identity, and saying you are this, but there is also bullshi**ing other people, and claiming/trying to be what you feel is right for you, but which isn't entirely correct.

The truth is they are somewhere in between he and she. Transgender therefore works.

Would you reason the same way about, say, a woman who had an unfortunate discoloration of an area in her face and used makeup to cover it? "You look pretty, I'd say, but not REALLY, are you?"

What do you mean when you say they b#%@~%@* you, or claim/try to be "what you feel is right for you, but which isn't entirely correct"? Nobody has a responsibility to clearly define their sex, or gender, to you. You have no RIGHT to know what is between someone's legs, nor would I consider that the most important part of a person you're communicating with. I know that many people get upset, some even turn violent, if they think someone is a girl and then discover it's a transgendered person. For the life of me, I can't understand, or respect, that reaction. It's one that costs far too many young people their lives every year.

Understand that they never got to choose. Things you consider natural, evident and uncomplicated are everything but for them. Being uncertain about whether you're a boy or a girl, uncertainty about their sexuality, uncertainty about their environment, who they can entrust with this, knowing there are many who could even kill them for this... and the feeling of living a lie, every day, year in and year out. Feeling that people accept you so long as you deny who you are. Fearing every time you dress up that you will become another number in the violence statistics, or that someone you know will recognize you. Knowing that transgendered people are routinely thrown out by their parents if they learn of it. And that's without even touching on the troubles that begin if you actually start getting serious about changing things.

Do everyone a favour... be grateful that your life is not complicated in that way. Be respectful of those whose lives are.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

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3.5 Loyalist wrote:

They can try and define the correct pronoun, but others can also say, no, sorry, you aren't entirely are you?

This is about identity. If you say, "I'm a gamer," and someone else says, "No, you're not really," for whatever reason, or they redefine "gamer" in a way you find insulting ("basement dwelling loser"), you feel insulted. (ETA: I am NOT trying to equalize being transgender with being a gamer, I'm just trying to pick an identity I know 3.5 Loyalist has to try and make the idea more relatable to 3.5 Loyalist.)

No one has the right to tell you you are not who and what you say you are.

No one has the right to diminish or discount who and what you say you are.

Furthermore, as far as I'm concerned, telling someone who identifies as one gender that they are really another, can be tantamount to calling someone a racial or cultural slur. You are discounting that person's identity and saying your own viewpoint of who and what they are is superior to their own view of and respect for themselves. It is disrespectful and, moreover, dehumanizing.

I get this is a particularly hard issue to wrap one's head around. For those of us who are cis-gender, it is hard for us to imagine wanting to turn our body into something else and the idea may even horrify us---but that's because we ARE cis-gender, it's because we ARE already happy with our bodies. But who are we to deny that happiness to someone else?

Scarab Sages

@Sissyl: Actually, I don't like it when women/men wear cosmetics either, mostly because I don't finder powder/nasty crap attractive :P.

Honestly, my statement about a gender specific pronoun was made purposefully, not because I didn't feel that there was a correct term, but because I know that not everyone agrees on the correct terminology to identify with a transgender person. There are lots of things people never get to choose; things people are born with that seem downright unfair (those born with birth defects, those born with a propensity for murder, etc.). The question is, how far is going too far to change who you are?

There are lots of people who will persecute pretty much anyone for anything, but at what point are you willing to compromise your own identity (that of being transgender) to conform with society? That's the part I may disagree with. It's not that I don't understand not wanting to be who you are, but why not accept what you are rather than changing it?

@DQ: Actually, everyone has the right to discount what I say I am. I have the ability to either accept or deny what they say. I may wish to disprove them, but that doesn't mean they aren't free to believe what they believe.


To a transsexual person, what they feel they are is what they are. To be what they are means changing physically to match.Simple as that.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

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Davor, people are free to believe what they believe, true, and maybe I worded what I said poorly. But that doesn't mean we should put have to put up with bigoted comments in the name of "freedom." Telling trans-folk that they are not the gender they say they are is bigoted.

Scarab Sages

And, I'm afraid, there are people out there who truly believe they are dragons trapped in human form. (I'm not kidding. Look it up.) That doesn't make them dragons.

Now, I don't say that to imply that transgender people are crazy. I know this isn't the case, and I would never wish to insult someone's sense of gender identity. My point is that changing your sex to correspond with your gender seems like wishful thinking, rather than truly creating and being comfortable with your sense of self.


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Davor wrote:

And, I'm afraid, there are people out there who truly believe they are dragons trapped in human form. (I'm not kidding. Look it up.) That doesn't make them dragons.

Now, I don't say that to imply that transgender people are crazy. I know this isn't the case, and I would never wish to insult someone's sense of gender identity. My point is that changing your sex to correspond with your gender seems like wishful thinking, rather than truly creating and being comfortable with your sense of self.

Taking an extreme example as a parallel for something is A) offensive and B) not ok. There's a word for it related to logical falicies, but it escapes me at the moment.

I like to cook, which often involces cutting raw meat. That does not mean I like to cut out human livers.

People change their outsides to match their inner feelings ALL THE TIME. Short people wearing platform shoes or heels. Tall people wearing flats. Plastic surgery of many varieties. Wearing nice clothes. Tanning. Dying ones hair. Colored contacts. Etc. Etc. Etc. The idea that someone feels like they were born with the wrong body isn't that far of a stretch and it doesn't make it a psychological disorder just because you don't understand it.

Frankly, I'm a gay man and I don't understand it either. I'm a guy who likes guys and who likes being a guy. Even given the option I wouldn't have it any other way. That does not mean I don't have empathy for someone who feels like they've had some sort of genetic injustice forced upon them. If they have the will and ability to change the outsides to match the insides I say more power to them even though I don't really understand it.

Don't fall into the trap of saying it's somehow wrong simply because you (generally speaking and not specifically to Davor) don't get it.

Scarab Sages

Ooo... lots of stuff to address. I'll try to take it point by point.

Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:


Taking an extreme example as a parallel for something is A) offensive and B) not ok. There's a word for it related to logical falicies, but it escapes me at the moment.

I like to cook, which often involces cutting raw meat. That does not mean I like to cut out human livers.

Actually, the human livers thing would be an example of a logical fallacy, since it doesn't pertain to cooking, at least not usually. The example provided isn't fallacious because it is, essentially, the same thing: Wanting to be something you (physically) are not. The point was not that it was an insult. In fact, I specifically mentioned that I totally understand wanting to change yourself. All I said was that saying you are something doesn't make it so.

Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:


People change their outsides to match their inner feelings ALL THE TIME. Short people wearing platform shoes or heels. Tall people wearing flats. Plastic surgery of many varieties. Wearing nice clothes. Tanning. Dying ones hair. Colored contacts. Etc. Etc. Etc. The idea that someone feels like they were born with the wrong body isn't that far of a stretch and it doesn't make it a psychological disorder just because you don't understand it.

All of which are things I think are silly and shouldn't be done either. Again, I understand not being happy with yourself, but perhaps it's ones self perception that needs to be changed, rather than the exterior.

Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:

Don't fall into the trap of saying it's somehow wrong simply because you (generally speaking and not specifically to Davor) don't get it.

I know it wasn't a specific comment, but I'll address this (and the above statement). I'm not claiming anything is a psychological disorder, nor has the claim been made that something is wrong simply for being wrong. As mentioned, I do understand it. I may think it's icky, but I get it. I may have moral values for/against the idea, but it's also a trap to assume that those that disagree with you are ignorant or bigoted. (Not a personally directed statement, but one I feel needs to be brought up.)


Asphere wrote:
... the correct gender specific pronoun in this case would be "her".

This could probably be an issue. There is almost always someone who will be offended no matter what you pick when you are trying to be politically correct or even just polite.

Ex: At my previous job, there was several folks that didn't like to be called black. There were 2 people that got offended at being labeled african-american. The guy that called himself tofee colored. And the guy that went up in arms if skin tone was mentioned in any way.
There were a couple of women that did not like to be called Miss instead of Missus, since everyone should be able to somehow tell they were married. (And of course the opposite.) And one woman who, since her status was no one else's business, insisted on Miz. Even though the term is nearly dead in common usage (at least in our part of the country).

I never try to offend someone and always try to pick as non-offensive term as possible. But sometimes it is not possible. I find myself running away from conversations even with people I consider friends, because there is little chance to avoid offending someone.


Davor wrote:

]

I know it wasn't a specific comment, but I'll address this (and the above statement). I'm not claiming anything is a psychological disorder, nor has the claim been made that something is wrong simply for being wrong. As mentioned, I do understand it. I may think it's icky, but I get it.

Hmmm. Well, if you say you get it, I would then have to assume that you merely misrepresented yourself through poor word choice, and accidentally made yourself appear to be an offensive, bigoted person that doesn't get it, when in fact you're not and you do...

I don't think it hurts to take care with such sensitive issues that are really so important to some people, even if they're not that important or relevant to you and I.

Scarab Sages

littlehewy wrote:


...I would then have to assume that you merely misrepresented yourself through poor word choice, and accidentally made yourself appear to be an offensive, bigoted person that doesn't get it...

???

I realize you clarified this, but when was this the case? >_>


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Davor wrote:
All of which are things I think are silly and shouldn't be done either. Again, I understand not being happy with yourself, but perhaps it's ones self perception that needs to be changed, rather than the exterior.

You know that changing self perception is actually impossible in most of these cases and if forced, causes severe psychological damage?


Davor wrote:


Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:


People change their outsides to match their inner feelings ALL THE TIME. Short people wearing platform shoes or heels. Tall people wearing flats. Plastic surgery of many varieties. Wearing nice clothes. Tanning. Dying ones hair. Colored contacts. Etc. Etc. Etc. The idea that someone feels like they were born with the wrong body isn't that far of a stretch and it doesn't make it a psychological disorder just because you don't understand it.
All of which are things I think are silly and shouldn't be done either. Again, I understand not being happy with yourself, but perhaps it's ones self perception that needs to be changed, rather than the exterior.

You're not wrong about changing the perception vs changing to fit it. In an ideal world you'd be absolutely correct. However our world is far from perfect and if it takes a pretty frock to get you through your day then I fully support that. I don't see non-surgical cosmetic changes as a big deal. Everyone has a different aestic and expressing that is a non-issue as far as I'm concerned.

As far as telling people they shouldnt wear nice clothes (for example): Who are you to tell someone else what they should or shouldn't do as long as it does not harm themselves or others? Perhaps I'm overly sensitive, but many of the statements your using are remarkably similar to other "moral authorities" that I've been a victim of my whole life.

I'm sure that you mean well, but tread carefully on telling others what they should and shouldn't do. It's a slippery slope from "women should be demure" to "stone the deviant woman who dared show her face in public." The latter is a reality in some parts of the world even today.

Davor wrote:
I know it wasn't a specific comment, but I'll address this (and the above statement). I'm not claiming anything is a psychological disorder, nor has the claim been made that something is wrong simply for being wrong. As mentioned, I do understand it. I may think it's icky, but I get it. I may have moral values for/against the idea, but it's also a trap to assume that those that disagree with you are ignorant or bigoted. (Not a personally directed statement, but one I feel needs to be brought up.)

I never called anyone ignorant or bigoted. I understand that you weren't saying that I did, but I wanted to make sure that part is crystal clear.

I think changing one's gender is odd also. However, it's not my place to pass judgement or tell them what they should or shouldn't.


Davor wrote:
littlehewy wrote:


...I would then have to assume that you merely misrepresented yourself through poor word choice, and accidentally made yourself appear to be an offensive, bigoted person that doesn't get it...

???

I realize you clarified this, but when was this the case? >_>

Sorry Davor, it's 2am where I am and I had someone else's comments combined with yours in my head. I've no doubt come across a little harshly. I apologise for that.

That said, I maintain that some of your comments come cross as a bit... unempathetic. Perhaps "disinclined to think outside your own personal reality" would be a better way to put it, or "unimaginatively dismissive of others' personal realities" (see what studying sociology gets you...?). And anyone that has a personal, vested interest in this issue could easily (and probably justifiably) take offence to the way you've put some things across.

But as I said, I did attribute someone else's comments to you before you made me look. Sorry again.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

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Kydeem de'Morcaine wrote:
Asphere wrote:
... the correct gender specific pronoun in this case would be "her".

This could probably be an issue. There is almost always someone who will be offended no matter what you pick when you are trying to be politically correct or even just polite.

Ex: At my previous job, there was several folks that didn't like to be called black. There were 2 people that got offended at being labeled african-american. The guy that called himself tofee colored. And the guy that went up in arms if skin tone was mentioned in any way.
There were a couple of women that did not like to be called Miss instead of Missus, since everyone should be able to somehow tell they were married. (And of course the opposite.) And one woman who, since her status was no one else's business, insisted on Miz. Even though the term is nearly dead in common usage (at least in our part of the country).

I never try to offend someone and always try to pick as non-offensive term as possible. But sometimes it is not possible. I find myself running away from conversations even with people I consider friends, because there is little chance to avoid offending someone.

Kydeem, if someone tells you she is a woman, then call her "she." If someone tells you he is a man, then call him "he." This is not confusing. It is also very firmly established in the TLGBQ community that you call someone the gender they say they are, end of story. Asphere wasn't telling you that randomly, but citing established practice.

Now as to the broader situation you describe, sure, sometimes we mess up and we don't know want to call someone based on information we have. And sometimes an individual has really specific ideas of how they want to be addressed in ways that we can't anticipate. So you say, "Sorry, I didn't realize," call them what they ask, and move on. If they continue to take issue with you, then you know they're dealing with something bigger than you, that it's not really about you, and again, move on. The point isn't to get tongue tied over PC terminology, the point is just to try to be as respectful as we can within the best of our ability to do so--and if in doubt, just treat others the way we want to be treated ourselves.

Not that I'm an expert at any of this--quite the opposite, and I expect I've put my foot in it several times already and should just stop posting already. But this just should not be the debate it is turning into, and I'm getting really sad over this whole thread and what it's turning into, especially when it started off with such a positive message about people standing up for each other in the face of hatred.

Dark Archive

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Umbral Reaver wrote:
Davor wrote:
All of which are things I think are silly and shouldn't be done either. Again, I understand not being happy with yourself, but perhaps it's ones self perception that needs to be changed, rather than the exterior.
You know that changing self perception is actually impossible in most of these cases and if forced, causes severe psychological damage?

This, exactly. A transgendered person pretending they're not (and it would be pretending) is as psychologically damaging as a gay person convincing themselves (or being forced to be convinced. Let's not start on that 'pray away the gay' b%**@$@!) that they're straight. Nothing good comes of it, and that person just ends up miserable.


DeathQuaker wrote:
Kydeem de'Morcaine wrote:
Asphere wrote:
... the correct gender specific pronoun in this case would be "her".

This could probably be an issue. There is almost always someone who will be offended no matter what you pick when you are trying to be politically correct or even just polite.

Ex: At my previous job, there was several folks that didn't like to be called black. There were 2 people that got offended at being labeled african-american. The guy that called himself tofee colored. And the guy that went up in arms if skin tone was mentioned in any way.
There were a couple of women that did not like to be called Miss instead of Missus, since everyone should be able to somehow tell they were married. (And of course the opposite.) And one woman who, since her status was no one else's business, insisted on Miz. Even though the term is nearly dead in common usage (at least in our part of the country).

I never try to offend someone and always try to pick as non-offensive term as possible. But sometimes it is not possible. I find myself running away from conversations even with people I consider friends, because there is little chance to avoid offending someone.

Kydeem, if someone tells you she is a woman, then call her "she." If someone tells you he is a man, then call him "he." This is not confusing. It is also very firmly established in the TLGBQ community that you call someone the gender they say they are, end of story. Asphere wasn't telling you that randomly, but citing established practice.

Now as to the broader situation you describe, sure, sometimes we mess up and we don't know want to call someone based on information we have. And sometimes an individual has really specific ideas of how they want to be addressed in ways that we can't anticipate. So you say, "Sorry, I didn't realize," call them what they ask, and move on. If they continue to take issue with you, then you know they're dealing with something bigger than you, that it's not really about you, and again, move...

I find that addressing someone as the gender they are dressed as is a fairly safe bet. If he's dressed in pants and a polo his name is Steve. If the same person is dressed in heels and a sun dress her name is Steve.


@DQ:

There are few threads here that don't turn into debates :) But I hear you.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Umbral Reaver wrote:
Davor wrote:
All of which are things I think are silly and shouldn't be done either. Again, I understand not being happy with yourself, but perhaps it's ones self perception that needs to be changed, rather than the exterior.
You know that changing self perception is actually impossible in most of these cases and if forced, causes severe psychological damage?

Or worse still, attempting to change your self perception and/or being forcibly changed often ends in PHYSICAL self harm. Transgender individuals have a much higher suicide rate than cisgender individuals.


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DeathQuaker wrote:

Kydeem, if someone tells you she is a woman, then call her "she." If someone tells you he is a man, then call him "he." This is not confusing. It is also very firmly established in the TLGBQ community that you call someone the gender they say they are, end of story. Asphere wasn't telling you that randomly, but citing established practice.

Now as to the broader situation you describe, sure, sometimes we mess up and we don't know want to call someone based on information we have. And sometimes an individual has really specific ideas of how they want to be addressed in ways that we can't anticipate. So you say, "Sorry, I didn't realize," call them what they ask, and move on. If they continue to take issue with you, then you know they're dealing with something bigger than you, that it's not really about you, and again, move on. The point isn't to get tongue tied over PC terminology, the point is just to try to be as respectful as we can within the best of our ability to do so--and if in doubt, just treat others the way we want to be treated ourselves.

Pretty much this. If you refer to someone the wrong way based on appearance, but then accept the correction then it's not a big deal and then shouldn't make a fuss about it. If you make a big deal about refusing to call them what they want to be called, once they've told you: "You're not really a man, so I'm sticking with 'she'", then you're the one being a jerk.

Shadow Lodge

Kydeem de'Morcaine wrote:
Asphere wrote:
... the correct gender specific pronoun in this case would be "her".

This could probably be an issue. There is almost always someone who will be offended no matter what you pick when you are trying to be politically correct or even just polite.

Ex: At my previous job, there was several folks that didn't like to be called black. There were 2 people that got offended at being labeled african-american. The guy that called himself tofee colored. And the guy that went up in arms if skin tone was mentioned in any way.
There were a couple of women that did not like to be called Miss instead of Missus, since everyone should be able to somehow tell they were married. (And of course the opposite.) And one woman who, since her status was no one else's business, insisted on Miz. Even though the term is nearly dead in common usage (at least in our part of the country).

I never try to offend someone and always try to pick as non-offensive term as possible. But sometimes it is not possible. I find myself running away from conversations even with people I consider friends, because there is little chance to avoid offending someone.

In this case she identified with being a woman and wanted to be referred to as one. Therefore it is "her".


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Popping in to remind everyone to please revisit the messageboard rules before posting. Being civil and respectful to other posters is important.


Alexandra Pitchford wrote:
Umbral Reaver wrote:
Davor wrote:
All of which are things I think are silly and shouldn't be done either. Again, I understand not being happy with yourself, but perhaps it's ones self perception that needs to be changed, rather than the exterior.
You know that changing self perception is actually impossible in most of these cases and if forced, causes severe psychological damage?
This, exactly. A transgendered person pretending they're not (and it would be pretending) is as psychologically damaging as a gay person convincing themselves (or being forced to be convinced. Let's not start on that 'pray away the gay' b#@&%@@~) that they're straight. Nothing good comes of it, and that person just ends up miserable.

Well put.


Davor wrote:

And, I'm afraid, there are people out there who truly believe they are dragons trapped in human form. (I'm not kidding. Look it up.) That doesn't make them dragons.

Now, I don't say that to imply that transgender people are crazy. I know this isn't the case, and I would never wish to insult someone's sense of gender identity. My point is that changing your sex to correspond with your gender seems like wishful thinking, rather than truly creating and being comfortable with your sense of self.

Really, the takeaway here is that if someone isn't putting themselves or others in danger, who cares. They feel a certain way, so the respectful thing to do is to accept how they feel about themselves and move on.

Unless it's your profession to analyze such concepts, like you're a neurologist who is studying such things, there's really no point in doing so. I know it's part of the human brain to try and figure things out, but trying to tell other people how they really feel (because you think that what they're saying about how they feel is wrong) doesn't do anyone any good.

The only time such things should be considered 'defects' is when they actively inhibit a person's ability to live a happy life. Something like severe schizophrenia is a condition, it's hard to hold down a job, take care of yourself, etc. Being transgendered is not.

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