The intent of these line of threads is to generate GM and player discussion on how these spells are used in their games in order to generate some logical analytical discussion about how GMs can make in game rulings, provide fun challenges and encounters, and if required provide some house-rule mechanics options for their table as players gain access to these spells. In theory, a GM could type the spell name in the search and then review this thread to get some useful ideas for this spell in their game.
As with our other threads on this topic, please as much as possible use examples from your actual game. If you're interested in creating a "what if" scenario to get ideas about how to deal with them at your table, then please respect that if people provide options that's all they are - possible options that a GM could use to resolve the "theoretical example" you created.
So - how have your players used either of these, how did it affect combat? Were there misunderstandings about the effects, and what should a new GM think about for encounter design when a caster routinely has this spell on hand?
I think Obscuring mist becomes extremely good when combined with abilities that allow you to see through it - like the oracle of flame's ability or the the goggles.
As a DM or player I tend to use it as an escape method - defeating attacks of opportunity, ranged attacks etc.
If you use unchained rogue it is slightly less powerful now that concealment doesnt prevent sneak damage.
It is still a great spell though.
Obscuring Mist/Fog Cloud type spells are great for disrupting archer types. I was playing a PFS scenario recently where they end boss had an extremely dangerous ranged attack. I dropped Fog Cloud on him preventing him from making effective ranged attacks and forcing him to come towards us into melee.
My group generally avoids using either of these spells because most of the PCs want to charge into melee. This is also why we don't use pit spells either. If we had a different party composition, we might use it more often.
The GM occasionally uses one of these against us, but in less than 5% of encounters - he's good at variety.
As soon as we can, we get fogcutting lenses or the equivalent and then we use it too. Many (though not all) enemies start getting methods to see through them too. Eg undead have life sense.
These two spells are, in my mine, the basic battlefield control (even more than grease) because they lock down such a large area. With entangle, I can lock down everyone on the wrong side and then let the rogue take them out at leisure with a short bow. A number of people on the fly thread were complaining about how it turns into an "I win" button, but I think that's a better description of this spell.
Having said that, the spells do exactly what they are supposed to do, and they're among the few low-level spells with the capacity to end a dispersed encounter, which I think is a plus, since I find grinding the hit points off of a pack of orcs with a belt sander to be boring and repetitive.
ENTANGLE
Switching from 1E to PF versions of this created some short term trouble for me as a GM. By trouble I mean, keeping the encounter fun for the group and avoiding the "belt-sanding of HPs" OQ mentioned. No fun, although surrender can always lead to a new problem for the PCs.
1E was a smaller AoE, and with gridless combat you'd get maybe 2-3 enemy (or allies....) in one shot. 40' radius on a PF grid is -huge-, and I have a 2'x3' whiteboard battle grid.
A couple things for consideration on the spell for GM and PC casters.
I allow it in all kind of terrain, even caves/dungeons, but the type of plant would vary and not all will actual stop movement. IE desert grass would easily pull out, cave moss as well, but almost any where else the roots will hold a creature in 1 spot. I'd even allow it cast vertically against flying creatures but it wouldn't anchor - there are millions of seeds/spores/pollen etc floating in the air.
Making save allows you to move as normal, but don't forget the spell AoE is considered difficult terrain, so for most creatures that means 1/2 base move (10 or 15') so you may not get out of the AoE even with a double move, and you'll have to pass a save the next round.
Even anchored creatures with Entangled condition can still use missile weapon (-2 hit) or cast spells (concentration check). So it isn't a full lock-down, but can keep the group from being overrun-surrounded, or buy them a couple rounds to deal with a threat piecemeal.
For GM encounter considerations, much like other control spells, if you know its a "go-to" for the caster, keep that in mind when doing your APL + to get your CR budget. I've added +1 APL and gotten it more close to the challenge I was looking for. Ensuring humanoids have and use missile weapons (even javelins/spears) also at least maintains the action economy (at a penalty to hit).
In my own games I limit entangle to areas with plants that really could impede movement if they got grabby. "Tall grass", bushes, vines, trees, etc. I allow it to work in 3D, so 40 feet into the trees, and as far down as the roots go (generally about 10 feet). I don't allow it to work on manicured grass, most mushrooms, the trunks of really big trees, moss, etc. I think this keeps it balanced as a first level spell, but still lets the druid shine out in the woods. If the players were doing a desert adventure or all woodlands adventure, I might make the spell a little more or less effective. In my games, spike growth and spike stones are much more debilitating to the game it terms of locking down non-flying opponents and grinding the game to a halt, while everyone oppressively counts squares on the grid.
Having used solid fog extensively in 3.5 (it really was solid back then) I don't find obscuring mist bad because it does not affect movement, and as with most mist/fog spells, it often affects the caster and opponents equally (Obscuring mist is slightly better for the caster because it is the only fog type spell that the caster can actually dismiss). Also, it's stationary, and one of the few ways to get real concealment for protection from ranged attacks or bet a retreat (two things that I feel balance the game at lower all levels). When it comes to shutting down groups of enemies, I find darkness combined with darkvision an absolutely devastating tactic against enemies without darkvision.
Fergie wrote: In my own games I limit entangle to areas with plants that really could impede movement if they got grabby. "Tall grass", bushes, vines, trees, etc. I allow it to work in 3D, so 40 feet into the trees, and as far down as the roots go (generally about 10 feet). I don't allow it to work on manicured grass, most mushrooms, the trunks of really big trees, moss, etc. I think this keeps it balanced as a first level spell, but still lets the druid shine out in the woods. If the players were doing a desert adventure or all woodlands adventure, I might make the spell a little more or less effective. In my games, spike growth and spike stones are much more debilitating to the game it terms of locking down non-flying opponents and grinding the game to a halt, while everyone oppressively counts squares on the grid.
Having used solid fog extensively in 3.5 (it really was solid back then) I don't find obscuring mist bad because it does not affect movement, and as with most mist/fog spells, it often affects the caster and opponents equally (Obscuring mist is slightly better for the caster because it is the only fog type spell that the caster can actually dismiss). Also, it's stationary, and one of the few ways to get real concealment for protection from ranged attacks or bet a retreat (two things that I feel balance the game at lower all levels). When it comes to shutting down groups of enemies, I find darkness combined with darkvision an absolutely devastating tactic against enemies without darkvision.
Your mention of all woodlands reminded me of something Ive been guilty of forgetting - and it kind of mixes the spell effects of Mist and Entangle since -terrain itself- mimics some of the effects caused by them.
In moderately wooded terrain or worse (anything you're counting as forest), the GM should probably be imposing "difficult" terrain to simulate needing to move around small/larger trees even if they're not on the battle mat and there is no Entangle spell.
For similar reason, it would probably be appropriate to give all creatures an AC bonus (The CRB p425 mentions +2AC and +1 reflex if "standing in same square as a tree) or partial concealment (20% miss chance) against all ranged attacks beyond a certain # of feet. For example, if you decide the forest density here is 1 tree (12" trunk just for sake of scale) every 10', then perhaps past 20' range everyone is getting the partial cover and partial concealment. Again - without something like Obscure Mist.
The environment section of the CRB has some tables for rolling % chance of certain trees, etc in various terrain, but that could slow the game down more than some might like.
Looking over those tables again has me thinking I may want to start referencing them during encounter design in general just for some good thought food. IE: rolling random to see if there is a certain type of obstacle/log/rockfall/stream, etc before the encounter so I can put it on the battlemat. I like that kind of immersion, and reminds me that the books are full of great things you forget was ever there.
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My group lays down two ~2'x3' one-inch-grid papers on a table, then lays a sheet of plexiglass over that. We use dry erase markers to indicate most terrain and draw dungeons as well. Ongoing area spells, elevations of flying creatures, etc can be marked as well. Spilled drinks, pizza grease, etc. stays off the papers. In addition to the dry erase stuff, we also keep a small box full of various styrofoam blocks, scale railroad trees, fish tank decorations, etc. Nothing fancy (most of it is from the trash or garage sales), but it really helps make the grid less abstract, and makes line of sight, cover, etc. easy. The GM can quickly scribble a stream, a few ditches and berms, areas of dense brush, and then just randomly drop a few trees and block of stryafoam (collapsed house) and the game does not have to wait. Complex dungeons can be drawn in advance, covered from view, then revealed as the players explore (just be careful not to slide the covering material, as that can erase the map).
We also have a rule that if a square contains more then two types of terrain (water and land for example) the player can decide what it will count as. This allows the GM to do a rough job of drawing the map, and it doesn't look like an old 8bit computer graphic. It lets everyone worry about the action, not the grid.
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