I'm not seeing how this change would prevent something like a bite attack. I totally understand it disallowing your other claw attack though.
It isn't more useful for other classes, though. Who is using a light weapon and not TWF'ing that isn't a Swashbuckler?Anyone who wants to create a build around a character concept of using one light weapon? The rules are written for everyone, not just those who would never consider using an 'inferior' weapon in a build.
real people don't do this (the character not the person making the character), why wouldn't you try to use at least a buckler to guard your hand as you strike?
it's of extremely limited scope and not really useful. I suppose a swashbuckler could use a dagger, but it still doesn't work for any other class.
Ah, I see. Totes lamo.
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As it's now, slashing grace is weaker and with more prerequisites than dervish dance, how can that be considered a good thing?, answer: It can't.
Slashing Grace now works with light weapons, unlike DD. There are some fun light-weapon-only tricks like Piranha Strike out there to play with now.
And, of course, it opens it up for light weapon use without requiring a swashbuckler dip.
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As it's now, slashing grace is weaker and with more prerequisites than dervish dance, how can that be considered a good thing?, answer: It can't.Slashing Grace now works with light weapons, unlike DD. There are some fun light-weapon-only tricks like Piranha Strike out there to play with now.
And, of course, it opens it up for light weapon use without requiring a swashbuckler dip.
Light weapons are weaker than scimitar so I have a point, but you have a good point with the piranha strike thing.
However, I think that the possibility of spell combat and/or natural attacks make DD stronger.
Do note that (if my memory serves well) slashing grace doesn't work with all light weapons, like the shortsword.
It works with the gladius though, and feats are interchangeable between the gladius and shortsword.
Still, it's overly restrictive in that you cannot use a buckler, spell combat, natural weapons, or be grappled and use dex to damage.
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Or it's an indication that it's something they want to save it for a chronicle sheet reward, or they feel it's not a good fit for organized play, or many other reasons. Being "OP" is only one of many reasons they ban things.>implying I don't have to spend at least 5 feats to even consider doing Dex-to-damage TWFYou can't get that with feats now at all - unless your group allows Effortless Lace so you can TWF with rapiers. (Effortless Lace is OP - the general rule is if PFS bans it as the book comes out - that's a good indication it's pretty OP.)
Not to mention the guys running PFS can be wrong in their interpretation of what is and isn't balanced.
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Consider that a 3rd level summoner could have an eidolon with EWP 2-bladed sword and Multiweapon Fighting and have 12 attacks for 1d6+1 each (or 8 attacks for 1d6+2 and higher to-hit, depending). These would be manufactured weapon attacks and completely bypass the max-attacks rule.The only benefit you get out of this [besides being able to dual-wield with one hand disabled/removed somehow] is the ability to dual-wield a single weapon [weapon focus, weapon training etc etc] while wearing a shield.
Which is pretty cool, but keep in mind it cost you an Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat [unless you're doing it with a staff, which is a really weak weapon overall.]
Which is why they fixed that in unchained. Manufactured attacks no longer bypass max attacks.
The 4th level apg summoner would have haste up too, it's not really a class you can usefully use to balance any other class against, because it was hopelessly broken.
As it's now, slashing grace is weaker and with more prerequisites than dervish dance, how can that be considered a good thing?, answer: It can't.Slashing Grace now works with light weapons, unlike DD. There are some fun light-weapon-only tricks like Piranha Strike out there to play with now.
And, of course, it opens it up for light weapon use without requiring a swashbuckler dip.
Light weapons are weaker than scimitar so I have a point, but you have a good point with the piranha strike thing.
However, I think that the possibility of spell combat and/or natural attacks make DD stronger.
Do note that (if my memory serves well) slashing grace doesn't work with all light weapons, like the shortsword.
I think you are correct that it only works with slashing light weapons. I have posted a list of the slashing weapons that it will work with.
For me, one interesting case is the Scorpion Whip. Given the recent FAQ on that weapon, Slashing Grace (scorpion whip) should get you DEX to damage in both its "light mode" and "one-handed mode." It makes this a more attractive weapon.
Just glad my Dex based fighter doesn't rely on these feats. I wonder if a nerf to Agile is coming. I feel bad for the people affected by this.
The only thing it potentially affects in any of my games is one of my son's characters in a home game. I am fine with house ruling the errata being a retarded rule and ignoring it.
...worst rule change since Crane Wing. Bleh.
Isn't Agile not Society-legal anyway?
It works with the gladius though, and feats are interchangeable between the gladius and shortsword.As it's now, slashing grace is weaker and with more prerequisites than dervish dance, how can that be considered a good thing?, answer: It can't.Slashing Grace now works with light weapons, unlike DD. There are some fun light-weapon-only tricks like Piranha Strike out there to play with now.
And, of course, it opens it up for light weapon use without requiring a swashbuckler dip.
Light weapons are weaker than scimitar so I have a point, but you have a good point with the piranha strike thing.
However, I think that the possibility of spell combat and/or natural attacks make DD stronger.
Do note that (if my memory serves well) slashing grace doesn't work with all light weapons, like the shortsword.
I did not know that about the Gladius. Thank you!
Still, it's overly restrictive in that you cannot use a buckler, spell combat, natural weapons, or be grappled and use dex to damage.
Many people seem to think that a buckler is still usable since it is strapped to your arm rather than held in your hand. I've also seen the argument that the "fight with two weapons" phrase is merely boilerplate for "using the two-weapon fighting action or the Two-Weapon Fighting feat" and would therefore not exclude your normal ability to use natural attacks as secondary attacks with your manufactured weapon attacks. These issues deal with areas of the rules that I am largely unfamiliar with, so at this point I am completely confused by those aspects of S.G.
Isn't Agile not Society-legal anyway?Just glad my Dex based fighter doesn't rely on these feats. I wonder if a nerf to Agile is coming. I feel bad for the people affected by this.
The only thing it potentially affects in any of my games is one of my son's characters in a home game. I am fine with house ruling the errata being a retarded rule and ignoring it.
...worst rule change since Crane Wing. Bleh.
It is PFS legal. It's from the Pathfinder Society Field Guide which is PFS legal in its entirety.
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Thank you for the post, Jeff! Since it works with bucklers, it fits really well with a Swashbuckler's fighting style, but the other new restrictions make it far less useful to most other classes; which I assume to be the point.
I see that they settled a couple of other common questions too. It's super-FAQ day!
I would argue that leve 5 is too late to get Slashing Grace. you might as well just pick up the Agile enhancement. I want it by level 3 (when the unchained rogue gets it), or not bother at all.
Not every build that can use it has to wait for the first four levels; a Pharasma Warpriest can have it with dagger from the start. But even builds that have to wait a few early levels certainly benefit by 'bothering' to get it. Agile is a very problematic solution in several ways, which is why people care about dex-to-damage feats in the first place.
I'm honestly surprised that the option of being able to pick up an easy feat to go dex-to-damage with a wide range of weapons that work with Piranha strike is being called useless; perhaps it's a case of people thinking only in terms of how it benefits what is already done, rather than the new options it opens up.
What this means has been clarified.
Slashing Grace: In the 2nd printing errata, what exactly does it mean that “You do not gain this benefit while fighting with two weapons or using flurry of blows, or any time another hand is otherwise occupied?” Can I use a shield? What about a buckler? Can I use flurry of blows? Brawler’s flurry? Two-weapon fighting? Spell combat? Attack with natural weapons? What if I throw the weapon? What about swordmaster’s flair?
Slashing Grace does not allow most shields, but bucklers work because they don’t occupy the hand. Flurry of blows, brawler’s flurry, two-weapon fighting, and spell combat all don’t work with Slashing Grace. Attacking with natural weapons beyond the weapon you chose for Slashing Grace also does not work. Slashing Grace only works with melee attacks, not thrown attacks with a melee weapon. Swordmaster’s flair should have a sentence added to it that says “Carrying a swordmaster’s flair counts as having that hand free for the purpose of abilities that require a free hand, though you still can’t hold another object in that hand.”
I'm glad they backed off a bit on the restrictions, so that my dwarf daring champion can continue to wreck face with a waraxe while carrying his fortification buckler, but I do wish that my battle herald could at least be allowed to carry her banner around. I'd probably even be willing to completely waste her flurry ability (and switch to a less obscure weapon) if she could.
but I do wish that my battle herald could at least be allowed to carry her banner around.
Isn't it possible to tie it to the back as samurais did?
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I'm honestly surprised that the option of being able to pick up an easy feat to go dex-to-damage with a wide range of weapons that work with Piranha strike is being called useless; perhaps it's a case of people thinking only in terms of how it benefits what is already done, rather than the new options it opens up.
Well I think people are calling it useless because the way the feat has been kneecapped, it's a one weapon fighting style so it's compared to the other one weapon style, two handed fighting. Two handed fighting crushes Slashing Grace AND can be used in flurries all without using feats and from level one.
Even in a sword and shield situation, slashing grace falls down. Take 2 of that Pharasma Warpriest. One goes dex and one str. Dex loses out on AC (buckler vs heavy shield) and on damage as the str one can pick up a bigger weapon and start off dealing more damage until sacred weapon catches up.
So it's pretty much lose/lose. Most builds don't involve having a hand that's eternally empty...
but I do wish that my battle herald could at least be allowed to carry her banner around.Isn't it possible to tie it to the back as samurais did?
Probably. As long as I never want to take Flagbearer or get hold of a Banner of the Ancient Kings. Besides, I envision her looking more like this than this.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I'm honestly surprised that the option of being able to pick up an easy feat to go dex-to-damage with a wide range of weapons that work with Piranha strike is being called useless; perhaps it's a case of people thinking only in terms of how it benefits what is already done, rather than the new options it opens up.Well I think people are calling it useless because the way the feat has been kneecapped, it's a one weapon fighting style so it's compared to the other one weapon style, two handed fighting. Two handed fighting crushes Slashing Grace AND can be used in flurries all without using feats and from level one.
Even in a sword and shield situation, slashing grace falls down. Take 2 of that Pharasma Warpriest. One goes dex and one str. Dex loses out on AC (buckler vs heavy shield) and on damage as the str one can pick up a bigger weapon and start off dealing more damage until sacred weapon catches up.
So it's pretty much lose/lose. Most builds don't involve having a hand that's eternally empty...
Sadly I find it annoying that the idea of a swashbuckler keeping that hand occupied with something that's not a weapon, like a stein of ale (or the various tankard style magic items) shuts down his damage bonus.
I think getting an allowance for a battle herald's banner is probably more likely than reallowing use of something in the other hand, though making it more restrictive than Dervish Dance (which disallows weapon and shield specifically) is silly.
...Actually now that I think about it, a Banner is not necessarily a weapon or shield...
Sadly I find it annoying that the idea of a swashbuckler keeping that hand occupied with something that's not a weapon, like a stein of ale (or the various tankard style magic items) shuts down his damage bonus.I'm honestly surprised that the option of being able to pick up an easy feat to go dex-to-damage with a wide range of weapons that work with Piranha strike is being called useless; perhaps it's a case of people thinking only in terms of how it benefits what is already done, rather than the new options it opens up.Well I think people are calling it useless because the way the feat has been kneecapped, it's a one weapon fighting style so it's compared to the other one weapon style, two handed fighting. Two handed fighting crushes Slashing Grace AND can be used in flurries all without using feats and from level one.
Even in a sword and shield situation, slashing grace falls down. Take 2 of that Pharasma Warpriest. One goes dex and one str. Dex loses out on AC (buckler vs heavy shield) and on damage as the str one can pick up a bigger weapon and start off dealing more damage until sacred weapon catches up.
So it's pretty much lose/lose. Most builds don't involve having a hand that's eternally empty...
Gods help you if your human and you need a torch to see. No slashing grace for you!
Observations...
The original context of the statement was that it opens up a ton of possibilities for workable builds based on a dexterity concept. Whatever the potential benefits of dex-based builds in things like initiative and AC compared to the trade-offs, it's a totally different character concept to play out. I can be a shameless optimizer in many ways, but refusing to ever use a dex-based concept that's very workable simply because the DPR numbers come out a bit better for strength-based two-hander is a bit sad to me.
Most builds don't involve having a hand that's eternally empty...
With regard to this feat, there's potentially a lot more viable options now for creating that kind of build, including a lot of knife-and-buckler type stuff thanks to the new clarification. It's actually kind of annoying that kukri-and-buckler is now arguably a better option than rapier-and-buckler for a lot of things thanks to Piranha Strike.
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I'm honestly surprised that the option of being able to pick up an easy feat to go dex-to-damage with a wide range of weapons that work with Piranha strike is being called useless; perhaps it's a case of people thinking only in terms of how it benefits what is already done, rather than the new options it opens up.The feat is not useless but it is certainly lackluster and unimpressive, for multiple reasons, I'm actually surprised somebody thinks is a good option.
No, it's totally useful for all those builds that I never once even considered using. Single gladius melee character? No thank you.
Probably. As long as I never want to take Flagbearer or get hold of a Banner of the Ancient Kings. Besides, I envision her looking more like this than this.but I do wish that my battle herald could at least be allowed to carry her banner around.Isn't it possible to tie it to the back as samurais did?
I was more thinking about Orc Blademasters from Warcraft
Well, we're going to see a lot of Magi retraining to use dervish dance instead. So, instead of variety and fun, if you want to cast spells and hit things with a sword at the same time, you HAVE to use one particular weapon in one particular style. Variety, fun, difference; all bad. Magi are not allowed to use anything other than rapiers or scimitars, or else get killed because they have an AC of 16 at 5th level.
And I thought the various Whip Magi were pretty awesome. Unique and creative ideas that I'd be glad to allow as a DM, since they work within the rules without being nonsensical minmaxed messes.
It seems like Aldori dueling swords have the same restriction as does Dueling Mastery. Add Sword And Pistol to the list of worthless feats, it was already a gray area given the hefty prereqs.
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With regard to this feat, there's potentially a lot more viable options now for creating that kind of build, including a lot of knife-and-buckler type stuff thanks to the new clarification. It's actually kind of annoying that kukri-and-buckler is now arguably a better option than rapier-and-buckler for a lot of things thanks to Piranha Strike.
omg no there isn't, i don't care if you're using a dagger or brass knuckles, you're still only using a single weapon with an empty off-hand that is way more restrictive than getting to use light weapons.
As it's written now I suspect few characters would follow this path if it cost zero feats.
Slashing Grace now allows you to do the same thing with many light weapons that many builds previously required Dervish Dance or Fencing Grace to do. People have been rumored to spends feats on those chains to one-hand a single weapon with dexterity for reasons other than Magus; even more shocking, some of those builds supposedly aren't quaint nonsense.
While it may not be some complete revolution in dex-based characters, it's significant that dex-to-damage with a one-handed light weapon is now as viable as Fencing Grace for: characters who lack access to martial weapons, like battle Clerics or Inquisitors; characters who want to use specific light weapons, like Pharasma followers with Deific Obedience; characters who want to use Piranha Strike instead of Power Attack.
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As it's written now I suspect few characters would follow this path if it cost zero feats.Slashing Grace now allows you to do the same thing with many light weapons that many builds previously required Dervish Dance or Fencing Grace to do. People have been rumored to spends feats on those chains to one-hand a single weapon with dexterity for reasons other than Magus; even more shocking, some of those builds supposedly aren't quaint nonsense.
While it may not be some complete revolution in dex-based characters, it's significant that dex-to-damage with a one-handed light weapon is now as viable as Fencing Grace for: characters who lack access to martial weapons, like battle Clerics or Inquisitors; characters who want to use specific light weapons, like Pharasma followers with Deific Obedience; characters who want to use Piranha Strike instead of Power Attack.
It certainly does open up a few options. Earlier today I made a list of the manufactured weapons that would now work with Slashing Grace.
Slashing Grace with Weapon Finesse
Light (Simple)
Brass knife, Dagger, Hook hand, Sickle
Light (Martial)
Boarding axe, Butterfly sword, Cat-o'-nine-tails, Dogslicer, Gladius, Handaxe, Kerambit, Kobold tail attachment (long lash), Kobold tail attachment (razored), Kukri, Lungchuan tamo, Machete, Sea-knife, Shang gou, Tailblade (ratfolk), Throwing axe, War razor
Light (Exotic)
Barbazu beard, Bich'hwa, Butterfly knife, Dwarven maulaxe, Fighting fan, Kama, Knuckle axe, Rope gauntlet, Scorpion whip, Sica, Swordbreaker dagger, Wakizashi
One-handed (Exotic)
Aldori dueling sword, Whip
Slashing Grace with Swashbuckler Finesse (all of the above plus the following)
One-handed (Martial)
Battleaxe, Combat Scabbard, Cutlass, Double Chicken Saber, Gandasa, Klar, Longsword, Manople, Nine Ring Broadsword, Scimitar, Sibat, Terbutje, Terbutje (Steel)
One-handed (Exotic)
Bastard sword, Dwarven double waraxe, Dwarven waraxe, Falcata, Hooked axe, Katana, Khopesh, Rhoka, Sawtoothed Sabre, Temple Sword, Urumi
That's a much bigger list than before because of the light weapons. A lot of the light weapons, like Rope Gauntlet, probably won't ever be chosen by anyone, but others are pretty good. The Wakizashi, for example, was a considered a good weapon for a Kensai even before you could get DEX to damage with it. I'm particularly intrigued that the Scorpion Whip now qualifies. And I love that all of those light weapons qualify for the Dueling Special Ability. And if you don't like the light weapons, a one-level dip into Swashbuckler grants access to the same one-handed weapons as it did before.
I was pretty upset at the new list of restrictions, especially the elimination of Spell Combat and any secondary attacks with natural weapons, but I'm starting to readjust my expectations. TWF with Slashing Grace is sadly off the table. Frustratingly this happens at the same time that light weapons make the cut. But that doesn't mean that the feat is useless for everyone. For example, there are DEX-based characters who use bucklers, and for them this is a nice damage boost with little or no downside. And for players who don't use Golarion-specific resources, this is the only option for DEX to damage without a three level dip into Unchained Rogue.
Even a lot of Magus builds might find this useful. If you are casting Intensified Shocking Grasp using Spell Combat every round, it won't be much good. But if you are using something like a Frostbite/Rime Spell combo, you may only need to use Spell Combat once every few rounds. The rest of the time you can get good use out of this feat. A Magus is typically going to have a lot of feats that aren't going to be used in every round of combat. I don't think that means that they are all worthless. And the prerequisites for this one are really pretty low since they are likely choices anyway.
With all those fancy new options, retraining to dervish dance still looks more appealing.
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I am curious about the "Attacking with natural weapons beyond the weapon you chose for Slashing Grace also does not work." line.
So, this means:
1) You can choose a Natural Weapon for Slashing Grace.
2) You can use multiple natural weapons, as long as they are all the one you chose for Slashing Grace.
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With all those fancy new options, retraining to dervish dance still looks more appealing.
I can see that. The Rapier has been one of my favorite one-handed weapons for a long time. So Fencing Grace is probably still going to be my go to option for a lot of DEX builds, both because of its compatibility with things like Spell Combat and for its flavor. Dervish Dance has always been a good option even compared to the previous version of Slashing Grace. I suspect that many people will, like yourself, not find anything appealing about the new list. But I do, and I think there might be a few others who do.
The changes wiped out a lot of really nice builds and made a lot of other nice build less effective. But I've had a few days to mope about that, and now I'm done with my mourning period. I'm ready to take a look at the rules as they are now, and examine the positives. To an extent, that's what my previous post was for.
I am curious about the "Attacking with natural weapons beyond the weapon you chose for Slashing Grace also does not work." line.
So, this means:
1) You can choose a Natural Weapon for Slashing Grace.
Yes. You could choose Claws, for example. Or Bite
2) You can use multiple natural weapons, as long as they are all the one you chose for Slashing Grace.
No. If you choose Claws as your weapon, you can only use one Claw while using Slashing Grace. Since you don't get iterative attacks with natural weapons, they are a pretty bad choice.
Additionally you can not use your natural weapons with your manufactured weapons. For example, normally someone with a Bite attack can make iterative attacks with a sword and then make an extra attack using their Bite as a secondary natural weapon. Slashing Grace doesn't allow the Bite. So characters who have natural weapons end up losing those attacks in exchange for getting DEX to damage from the single weapon that they are wielding. So the opportunity cost for using Slashing Grace is higher for a Tengu than it would be for a Human.
Contributor
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I am curious about the "Attacking with natural weapons beyond the weapon you chose for Slashing Grace also does not work." line.
So, this means:
1) You can choose a Natural Weapon for Slashing Grace.
Yes. You could choose Claws, for example. Or Bite
2) You can use multiple natural weapons, as long as they are all the one you chose for Slashing Grace.No. If you choose Claws as your weapon, you can only use one Claw while using Slashing Grace. Since you don't get iterative attacks with natural weapons, they are a pretty bad choice.
Could you explain your reasoning more thoroughly, please? The text of the FAQ does seem fairly clear that, as long as you stick to claws alone, you can use both claws with Slashing Grace.