A Bit of Perspective

[Ravingdork]

I thought being able to see the full list of the class abilities lost when in your Social Identity might provide some additional perspective for some people.

• Another Day
  
• Arcane Striker
  
• Arcane Training II
  
• Arcane Training III
  
• Arcane Training IV
  
• Arcane Training V
  
• Arcane Training VI
  
• Armor Skin
  
• Bombs
  
• Bond of Blood
  
• Caster's Defense
  
• Close the Gap
  
• Combat Skill
  
• Concealed Casting
  
• Divine Training II
  
• Divine Training III
  
• Divine Training IV
  
• Divine Training V
  
• Divine Training VI
  
• Domain
  
• Educated Defense
  
• Elemental Battle Armor
  
• Empower Symbol
  
• Environment Weapon
  
• Expose Weakness
  
• Familiar
  
• Favored Maneuver
  
• Fist of the Avenger
  
• Foe Collision
  
• Heavy Training
  
• Hide in Plain Sight
  
• Leave An Opening
  
• Life Bond
  
• Living Shadow
  
• Living Shield
  
• Mad Rush
  
• Mighty Ambush
  
• Mockingbird
  
• Mystic Bolt
  
• Nonlethal Spellcasting
  
• Nothing Can Stop Me
  
• Penance Gaze
  
• Perfect Fall
  
• Perfect Vulnerability
  
• Pull Into Shadows
  
• Revivifying Touch
  
• Rogue Talent
  
• Rooftop Infiltrator
  
• Shadow Jump
  
• Shield of Fury
  
• Signature Spell
  
• Signature Weapon
  
• Silent Dispatch
  
• Social Simulacrum
  
• Sniper
  
• Stalwart
  
• Stern Gaze
  
• Strike The Unseen
  
• Suckerpunch
  
• Surprise Strike
  
• Tattoo Chamber
  
• Throat Jab
  
• Track
  
• Twisting Fear
  
• Unexpected Strike
  
• Unkillable
  
• Up Close And Personal
  
• Vital Punishment
  

Well now, isn't that quite the doozy?

That's 68 out of the 69 talents we've seen so far, with lots more promised in the final product. The ONLY talent that can be used while in a social identity, currently, is Case The Joint.

This class, as shown currently, possesses 72 class abilities (out of 93 total class abilities) THAT YOU CAN'T EVEN USE HALF THE TIME!

That's literally over 3/4 (~77%) of what the class is offering you! This problem will surely become much more pronounced as they release more talents if something doesn't change.

Even if you only account for the abilities you will actually take, you will still generally end up losing 20 out of your 30 total class abilities (~67%).

This rule NEEDS to go away. It does absolutely nothing to enhance the concept and absolutely everything to limit the class's playability/viability.

[Milo v3]

But if you simply let vigilantes us all their talents in social identity, then the primary purpose of the class is removed and there is no reason to take a level in the class past first.

[Ravingdork]

Milo v3 wrote:

But if you simply let vigilantes us all their talents in social identity, then the primary purpose of the class is removed and there is no reason to take a level in the class past first.

There's an easy solution to that: Don't grant all the really good identity concealer class abilities at 1st-level.

The benefits of having a social identity don't go away by getting rid of this rule, just all of the arbitrary mechanical and table problems.

I personally would recommend a 1st-level class ability that allows the character to use the Disguise skill far more quickly (like a full round action without penalty) and not much else. The other social abilities can come a little later; early enough to still be relevant, but late enough that dipping isn't the obvious choice.

[Cheapy]

I get the impression that originally the rule was that you got them in either identity, but it was found that that made it so there was little point in ever changing into the vigilante identity. Due to that, I think playtest data and suggestions pointing to ideas that keep that issue in mind are going to be received the best.

[Ravingdork]

Cheapy wrote:

I get the impression that originally the rule was that you got them in either identity, but it was found that that made it so there was little point in ever changing into the vigilante identity. Due to that, I think playtest data and suggestions pointing to ideas that keep that issue in mind are going to be received the best.

Is concealing your identity behind an awesome costume to protect your livelihood and loved ones from the sure and terrible retribution of your many enemies not enough???

[QuidEst]

Ravingdork wrote:

Cheapy wrote:

I get the impression that originally the rule was that you got them in either identity, but it was found that that made it so there was little point in ever changing into the vigilante identity. Due to that, I think playtest data and suggestions pointing to ideas that keep that issue in mind are going to be received the best.

Is concealing your identity behind an awesome costume to protect your livelihood and loved ones from the sure and terrible retribution of your many enemies not enough???

No, it's not enough. Not until the loved ones are a class feature, at any rate! (And we'll get an archetype that lets you trade one or two of them in for bonuses to your brooding and angst checks.)

[Zwordsman]

The awesome idea of costumes is enough for me haha. I think that would make this class more usuable..

Also there are clear bonuses when in costume.. off he top of my head..
that + to intimidation.. and startling appearence ones.

So really I feel like there is plenty of reason to switch back and forth.

Even if you play it like how i probably will) with a "civie" and "adventure" style. One form is the one that goes into cities, and the other is the adventuring side. (played with same alignments or making the adventuring guy slightly colder due to doing what you have to to live and do that work). being able to use everything (with a few costume or not costumed related skills being still restricted (like renown and startling appearence) in both forms means I'm not going to be caught with my pants down pointlessly and unable to contribute.

Example: I use the civie form in towns.. which is well and good. Until I see some criminal attacking or an assassination attempt, or the city catchs fire, or is attacked... I can't do most things right off the bat. So everyone I could have helped is doomed because i had to go spend 5mins changing to get abilties. or I die because I try to rescue them and am only a little better than a generic NPC in terms of what i can do.

Rather than that. I would prefer being able to always use everything (costume exception as above) with the running risk (by the gm) of discovery. Or being able to play entirely not secretiive (just like a normal player charcter).
If they set it up along those lines then this character can play amazing for the intrigue stuff they're releasing. While NOT being near unplayable with a normal group or in a normal story.

It would cleanly allow for ADHOC decisions.

I'm also a fan of the idea that specializations give benfits to what they're doing, but specializatin with the prereqs can take them. They just aren't as automatically good as the original specialization (avenger gets the psudo full bab, stalker gets fuller sneak attack, warlock and zealot get training 1 but also full by caster level spells per day progression as the norm for 6th lv casters--still need to take the talents to unlock the using. anyone tking the casting talents that aren't them get the current listed spells per day by the talent's words. (i.e. avenger or warlock could pick up divine casting but it's at the highly stunted casting the talents list)

[Koujow]

It seems strange, because even when Bruce Wayne/Peter Parker/Insert your favorite hero here is caught in a situation where they are in their secret identity but need to fight bad guys, they still often use at least SOME of their abilities until they can change into costume.

Unless... is that why Ra's Al Ghul beat Bruce Wayne in Batman Begins inside Wayne Manor? Because he wasn't in costume and therefore didn't have all of his class features?!

[Zwordsman]

Koujow wrote:

It seems strange, because even when Bruce Wayne/Peter Parker/Insert your favorite hero here is caught in a situation where they are in their secret identity but need to fight bad guys, they still often use at least SOME of their abilities until they can change into costume.

Unless... is that why Ra's Al Ghul beat Bruce Wayne in Batman Begins inside Wayne Manor? Because he wasn't in costume and therefore didn't have all of his class features?!

Bwahahahaha. That is a great great thought!

Vigilante is a bit more Green Lantern I guess.. without that ring they are barely above a normal person. and below some.

[PIXIE DUST]

Honestly I am worried about their proposed "solution" of new social specific talents... that is all good and all but all that does is force the Vigilante to either pick a ability that will be useful for combat or something out of combat. This can end up making him kinda meh at both... also, this HARDCORE punishes Warlocks and Zealots since they barely get an option. They are forced to pick between class abilites or spellcasting... which is stupid since the Oracle, druid, Shaman, Witch, and Arcanist get both... and they have FULL 9 LEVEL CASTING I MIGHT ADD...

[PIXIE DUST]

Oh, add in the fact that apparently it is believed that Paizo WILL NOT add an "extra talent" feat for these guys because "the feat will be too powerful since their abilities are stronger than feats" and this class just feels like it is doomed... I mean, without this feat, the talent starved nature of the class, and the presence of many other classes that do get many features AND have a "Extra X" feat dooms this class to "thats cute... but ill pass"