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Clearly a creature can be dropped in the middle of another's turn. Simply look at the feats Cleaving Finish, etc. How would they function in your house rules? Likewise a PC hitting a trap or other obstacle is effected by them immediately- not at the end of their turn. There is no 'resolution' stage of a PC's turn.
That isn't what happened in my example though. I was saying that the 5 foot step phase of the full-round attack isn't treated as a sequential event because Bob is attacking during the full-round. If that is true, then even during Bob's 5-foot step he is considered "attacking" and therefore cannot use a stealth check.
This view was countered with an example of Bob hitting John who has fire shield. How would this be resolved for example if Bob took a full-round action to hit John and on the second attack incurred enough damage to be unconscious and then took a 5-foot step? If he passes out prior to taking the 5 foot step then that implies that the 5 foot step is a sequential event and a full-round action doesn't really use a"full-round" as the rules imply because Bob wouldn't be attacking. If this is true then Bob isn't considered to be "attacking" and he can make a stealth check during a 5 foot step.
I didn't mean to imply that the phases of a full-round attack were simultaneous. Re-reading my post looks like that's what I meant - my apologies. I meant to imply that a 5-foot step during a full round action could be considered simultaneous. If it isn't than I am back to square one with allowing a stealth check during a 5 foot step during a full round attack because Bob is no longer "attacking".
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<sarcasm>Oh, excellent! In that case, I'll just full attack every round with my rogue, and then make a non-action Stealth check at the end of my turn! I'll only get one sneak attack per turn, but that's okay because I still get multiple regular attacks.</sarcasm>
1 sneak attack with multiple attacks is better than none. If the enemy's back is in a corner and he cannot be flanked you get zero sneak attacks if you aren't attacking from stealth.
ok...just do this...instead a rogue make a ninja...problem solved
Take Vanishing Trick = swift action to activate invisibility....make full attack against "John", 5 ft step out, pop invisibility...now whether you can or cant "use" stealth you cannot be seen anyways and "John" has no idea where the hell you are
my question to this is...if your PC had truesight and it was dim light around...lets say mage friend pops Deeper Darkness...this creates Supernatural Darkness...how would you rule stealth and sneak attacks at this point...if the NPC doesnt have truesight then the PC is basically under greater invisibility right? at this point to you rule that if he full attacks and 5 ft steps out could he use stealth since he cant even be seen?
also...you couldnt do the full attack, 5 ft step thing EVERY ROUND...you only get one 5 ft step...so it would work as you would run to NPC and attack once from stealth sneak attacking...NPC full attacks the hell out of you...ur turn you can move or 5ft step back using stealth (wasted turn if you ask me) then next turn 5 ft step and full attack getting still only one sneak attack...my point is its wasted action economy...the BEST ANSWER TO THIS barring greater invisibility is Spring Attack...you get a solid sneak attack every round that way and have no rule issues of whether you can or cannot use stealth...in my mind that is why spring attack exist for just this matter.
So I think I have been convinced that with HiPS:
1. A full-round attack + 5-foot step + stealth is not possible. The only reason is due to the fact that everything that occurs during a full-round attack is interpreted as happening simultaneously - not one after the other. For example, a full round attack, 5 foot step, and yelling at a comrade are all happening at the same time. If that is true, making a stealth check during your 5 foot step violates the rule: "It's impossible to use Stealth while attacking, running, or charging".
2. A standard attack + 5 foot step (or move action for that matter) + stealth is possible because your attack has ended prior to the movement and you are no longer "attacking" and are not breaking the rule from #1. I suppose this gives the rogue/shadowdancer a nice defensive ability to get out of melee if he is heavily injured but still allows him an attack - it is certainly better than having to make a full-round action to withdrawal.
It would be cool if there were a feat to make 1 possible.
Thanks for the insight everyone!
Cheers!
One issue with attack. move stealth. AoOs.
AoOs go out of turn, so you trigger them with your movement.IF you only 5 foot step here's the trick
round one you are hiding, the guy can be stealth attacked.
On your turn you attack, step, hide.
His turn. Assuming he cant see you.
he holds his action. (or he could move away from you)
Your turn.
You 5 foot step, attack, so you can't move now.... because you cant 5 foot step AND move in the same round. You have already moved. so your only choice now is to full attack.
Now he attacks, he can full attack you because you are right there.
IF he wants he can 5 foot step.
Your turn again, you arent stealthed, so if he stepped away from you you could move and stealth as part of that move, theoretically reposition and attack.
But if he didn't... if you move any more than 5 feet he gets an AoO.
so you are stuck with 5 foot step and hide.
See it's not this fluid in and out of the shadows thing attack as you go and cleaning house....
Unless you have spring attack.
But with held actions he can still slice you up, especially if you keep one move wondering him.
so it doesnt work as conceived, IMO
This looks like another case of people confusing the Move action with a Move Action and with Moving to me!
The opening post here says...
Action: Usually none. Normally, you make a Stealth check as part of movement, so it doesn't take a separate action. However, using Stealth immediately after a ranged attack (see Sniping, above) is a move action.
Kinda curious where that was originally printed, but if that's true, we're in the same boat as drawing a weapon. Using stealth to hide yourself is a Move Action, in the "each turn you may use one swift, standard, and move action" sense. However, if you are already using your Move Action to Move (as in, start on this space here, end up on that space over there).
Taking a 5' step is not "moving" in this context, nor is it officially an action. It is just its own crazy weird nebulous thing you can do on your turn if you are otherwise not moving, that happens to leave you on an adjacent space.
You can't draw a weapon for free while taking a 5' step, you can't hide in a shadowy area either.
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This looks like another case of people confusing the Move action with a Move Action and with Moving to me!
The opening post here says...
Action: Usually none. Normally, you make a Stealth check as part of movement, so it doesn't take a separate action. However, using Stealth immediately after a ranged attack (see Sniping, above) is a move action.Kinda curious where that was originally printed, but if that's true, we're in the same boat as drawing a weapon. Using stealth to hide yourself is a Move Action, in the "each turn you may use one swift, standard, and move action" sense. However, if you are already using your Move Action to Move (as in, start on this space here, end up on that space over there).
Taking a 5' step is not "moving" in this context, nor is it officially an action. It is just its own crazy weird nebulous thing you can do on your turn if you are otherwise not moving, that happens to leave you on an adjacent space.
You can't draw a weapon for free while taking a 5' step, you can't hide in a shadowy area either.
You can't draw a weapon for free while taking a 5' step because the rules specifically say that drawing a weapon is a move action and that if you have a BAB of +1 or higher you can combine it with movement to form a move action.
The rules for stealth are different. The rule quoted above is from the CRB pg 107. The rule does not require a move action to use. Nor does it require movement at all. It says it is usually a non-action but you can use it as a part of movement. It says "movement" instead of "move action". Regardless, you do not have to move to do a stealth check, nor do the rules say that using a stealth check to hide is a move action.
What if you simply full round attack from stealth, 5' step to a different square that is in melee range around the boss, made a stealth check so that in the next round unless he moves you are able to rinse and repeat?
this is where you are trying to "rotate" the enemy.
round one.... how do you make sure you are close enough to attack him at all?
Wait until maybe he is next to you and doesn't realize it?
In this case you are in a hallway type terrain and "rotating" around him is likely unavailable.
Also, this assume it's a lone enemy?
If not.. you have to move up and attack. So 5 foot step/full attack on round one isn't going to be available.
Your turn you move from stealth and attack.
his turn he full attacks you.
your turn 5 foot step, move action to hide, now what attack from stealth? As a Dm I'm just not buying that....
This would also assume you beat his check to oppose your stealth.
But let's assume it does.
You still aren't getting full attacks.
So your turn since you attacked from stealth last turn, you aren't stealthed.
You 5 foot step, move action to stealth, then attack from stealth.
His turn, tired of this he grapples, bull rushes or just plain trips you....
he also still has the full round attack option.
I'm not really seeing the rinse repeat thing working here.
The idea as originally presented was moving in and out of shadow, attacking him and denying him attacks, this doesn't do this, at best it cheeses it's way into pulling off sneak attacks every round without a flanking buddy, something that can be pulled off with bluff and feint .
So, it's still doesn't work as conceived, especially if this is a fighter you are up against. Your bluff would have to work against him just as your stealth would, so there is room to fail. You don't avoid his attacks, and he is more likely to hit you than you are him. since you DON'T get any bonus to attack from flanking.....
I think mixing in scout archetype and spring attack with this idea is what your are looking for.
IF you tried this most recent incarnation of rinse repeat with a party....this shadowdancer is going down fast.
A possibility: Move up to him stealthed. End turn.
Full Attack, 5' Step->stealth.
Repeat.Works best if you start with surprise to close with him.
You could also sneak in, sneak attack, eat a full attack, full attack back without sneak attack, then step and hide to start the cycle. Riskier though.
You also don't have to rotate around him. You can step to one side and then step back next round.
Obviously it's not perfect. He might beat your stealth, in which case he's going to hurt you. If he knows (or guesses) your square, he can swing into it and take the miss chance, he's still gonna hit you part of the time. And he can always move away and ready, as you suggested.
Personally, I'd say it works. It's not overpowered. There are counters, but it's a nice boost to sneak attack if you can pull it off.
move to stealthed end turn is relying on the fact that this enemy, who doesn't know you are there, stays put for his turn.
What if he moves?
You can't full attack, 5' step AND stealth, you have to use the move action to stealth. so that wont work in the same round as already explained.
Also.
you are coming to him.
You are constantly moving.
He is not.
He gets full attack every time.
You don't.
Sure you could have a handful of SA dice, IF you hit him.
this is also missing what if HE full attacks then 5 foot steps?
if he 5 foot steps away from you, this goobs up the whole rinse and repeat again. (not like it actually works well to begin with)
What if you were to use a ranged weapon within 30 feet, in a larger area of shadow, continually moving and stealthing and sneak attacking that way?
Let's say you were 20 feet away.
You Sneak attack by throwing a dagger at him from 20 feet away.
you move and stealth.
He can't see you, he doesn't know where you are, he can't move to engage.
He holds his action.
Your turn you Sneak attack, move and stealth.
He might be able to attack you with his held action... possibly.
But now he is throwing or shooting something and your are getting sneak attacks....
Advantage.
IT depends on if the DM rules you can interrupt an action with a held action or not. I'm pretty sure you can like (I hold my action until he begins casting a spell, then I thwack him)
So the ranged way is slightly better in this case because you can't be tripped or grappled....but you go back to the mechanics if you can hit him all the time and you are still getting shot.
Not really all around effective.
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Oh! We're just talking about the regular usage of the stealth skill here? I thought someone was pulling that quote from some special ability somewhere. That's much simpler then. Second paragraph, last sentence:
It's impossible to use Stealth while attacking, running, or charging.
So... whether a 5' step counts as movement or not doesn't even enter into it. That's a non-action you're making as part of your full attack. The fact that you're making that full attack means you aren't able to use stealth. You'd have to finish your attack, and then, either as part of a a regular move, or as an independent move action, you would be able to activate Hide in Plain Sight (assuming shadows are available). Furthermore, let's look at how that whole "while being observed" clause in the Stealth skill itself:
If people are observing you using any of their senses (but typically sight), you can't use Stealth. Against most creatures, finding cover or concealment allows you to use Stealth. If your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check), you can attempt to use Stealth. While the others turn their attention from you, you can attempt a Stealth check if you can get to an unobserved place of some kind. This check, however, is made at a –10 penalty because you have to move fast.
The ability is Hide in Plain Sight, and it allows a regular ol' stealth check, not Become Invisible in Plain Sight, I don't see anything that indicates how you wouldn't still need something to hide behind in order to activate it. Normally, if someone is looking right at you, you can't hide even if there's something convenient to duck behind, because they see you moving behind it. You can clearly make a Bluff check to gain temporary Unobserved status as detailed here, but doing so in and of itself doesn't let you use stealth to "hide" right where you were standing, you have to quickly dash to that cover.
I don't see any reason to assume this isn't still generally the case with this ability. Your supernatural shadow mojo or whatever hinders people's ability to catch just how you're slipping out of sight, but you still need to end your movement somewhere they can't see you. If all you're doing is just taking a quick step to one side, you're not hidden, you're just standing right there out in the open.
You might be able to make a case for it if you're taking the 5-foot step right after the attack to move behind a conveniently placed curtain or something that's right next to you, If you also have the Fast Stealth talent (otherwise you're moving at half speed and all so you're effectively trying to move 10' with your 5' step, or taking a 2.5' step if you prefer), but seeing how skill and ability write-ups don't generally waste words saying you can't do things you can't do without some special ability coming into play, I'd personally be more inclined to go with the general rule of thumb that a 5' step doesn't count as movement for most things that care whether you're moving or not, barring any errata.
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Hide in plain site means you can hide in...plain site. It says you can hide while being observed as long as you are 10' away from a dim square. It negates the need for concealment. That is the point of it. You are literally fading into shadows. Your definition of HiPS isn't any different than a plain old stealth check if you still need something to hide behind (to become unobserved). Also, shadowdancers are supernatural. After all they can summon an undead shade to do their bidding.
The question here is whether or not you can stealth on a 5' step. Is the Shadowdancer considered to be "attacking" even after the attacks have been resolved and the Shadowdancer is taking her 5' step? Some say yes and some say no. If it is no, then the Shadowdancer can stealth during a 5' step after a full round action because stealth is a non-action that is usually performed as part of a movement. If the answer is yes the shadowdancer is "attacking" after the actual attacks have been resolved then the shadowdancer cannot stealth during their 5' step.
Almost everyone agrees that a Shadowdancer can make a standard attack, and then take a 5' step and stealth. Some are calling the 5'step and stealth a "move action" and some say it isn't.
Hide in plain site means you can hide in...plain site. It says you can hide while being observed as long as you are 10' away from a dim square. It negates the need for concealment. That is the point of it. You are literally fading into shadows. Your definition of HiPS isn't any different than a plain old stealth check if you still need something to hide behind (to become unobserved). Also, shadowdancers are supernatural. After all they can summon an undead shade to do their bidding.
It is different. Without the hide in plain sight ability, you can't actually attain stealth by ducking behind something, if someone is looking at you. You run around the corner and press yourself up against the wall? Well, I was standing here watching, so I still know where you are. You can make a bluff check to make me look away and then dash around the corner. As long as you can pass the stealth check with penalty, but the key thing here is, I'm not looking, this is just you trying to hide your footsteps.
Honestly though, I'm not even sure the free peekaboo thing is what the ability was intended for. I could see the spirit of the ability being that you can cram yourself into a shadowy alcove (with no actual physical barrier between you and the observer) and just kinda blend in. Anything that involves moving at all would then break with RAI. Honestly speaking, I have no clue what's really supposed to be going on with this particular power, fluff wise. It's very obtusely worded.
Hide in plain site means you can hide in...plain site. It says you can hide while being observed as long as you are 10' away from a dim square. It negates the need for concealment. That is the point of it. You are literally fading into shadows. Your definition of HiPS isn't any different than a plain old stealth check if you still need something to hide behind (to become unobserved). Also, shadowdancers are supernatural. After all they can summon an undead shade to do their bidding.
The question here is whether or not you can stealth on a 5' step. Is the Shadowdancer considered to be "attacking" even after the attacks have been resolved and the Shadowdancer is taking her 5' step? Some say yes and some say no. If it is no, then the Shadowdancer can stealth during a 5' step after a full round action because stealth is a non-action that is usually performed as part of a movement. If the answer is yes the shadowdancer is "attacking" after the actual attacks have been resolved then the shadowdancer cannot stealth during their 5' step.
Almost everyone agrees that a Shadowdancer can make a standard attack, and then take a 5' step and stealth. Some are calling the 5'step and stealth a "move action" and some say it isn't.
No it doesnt let you go invisible. It lets you HIDE in plain sight.... the action here being HIDE. It's doesn't say anything about fading into shadow.
Like the Ranger ability that it's copying.... the Ranger needs to be in his favored terrain to do it. For example the forest.I'm staring at the Ranger and he moves, but because of his mastery of the terrain, I have difficulty following his movement and I can't make out exactly where he is even tho Im staring right at him. But he IS hiding, not standing in front of me. Not engaged in combat. Hiding.
For the shadow dancer this "terrain" is accomplished with dim light with in 10'.
So referencing the light rules in the CRB. It states Bright light, such as being outside or being inside with the daylight spell means you can't hide, Normal light is defined as within 20 feet of a torch or the light spell, indoors. And Dim light states you can make a stealth check to hide and describes this as being outside when it's dark...maybe some moonlight.
So if you're outside and it's dark chances are the enemy has a torch, or a light spell (0 level) which means No you can't 5 foot step, rotate around him and HiPS because there is NOT Dim light within 10'.
you could move in and out of the range of the light however, as soon as you back far enough into darkness.,, you can hide again.
The 20' radius of light is small enough to be with in the 30' distance for ranged sneak attack.
If the enemy/party has Daylight spell (60' r of bright light) you are SOL.
It doesn't matter if there is a shadow somewhere, you have to be in 10' of dim light, which is no where near the center of the source of light.
So no...you can't do this.
A Torch or Light spell and spring attack might work if the character had a high enough movement rate.
but to figure out your movement, how it would actually work and your moving in and out of the light range would take a battle map, but I can tell you this.... It's not even going to remotely be a sneak attack every round.
For reference vision and light is on pg 72 of CRB.
So by RAW it's not going to work. I can't see a person being in the dark without light or a torch, and by the time shadow dancer gets to the point where he's got some decent sneak attack, staying power, HiPS and can get non racial darkvision himself (be dumb to carry your own light) he's fighting enemies you might have daylight. which means he wouldnt even be able to SA with ranged weapons.
It should also be noted, without darkvision or lowlight vision, the shadowdancer himself has a 20% miss chance on his intended victim because of the dim light. as per the rules on the same page.
soooooo. that puts a REAL bummer on the whole rotate around and enemy in the dark.
It's just not going to happen.
Also note: if you are fighting enemies with dark vision they can see you in the dark, so you need to HIDE not just stand there.
Enemies with low light can see twice as far, so that torch becomes a 40' radius to just about everything that's not human. OUCH. (and a daylight spell doubles to 120 with all those elves, half elves etc)
The tactic wont work at all with dwarves, half orcs, drow descended half elves.....
Edit: I just re-read shadow dancer....someone was quoting dim light, but it doesnt say that it says shadow, you can't hide in your own.
IF someone is looking at you, you have to have a shadow, says you can't hide in your own.
So where are you going to find that shadow?
If it's a lone enemy that's not going to happen, but what if it's a dispersed party? someone has the light.
So you can hide in other peoples shadows? basically dodging in and out of the party? But they will move, figure it out, close ranks, use more light and the 5 foot step thing isnt going to work or be sustainable.
So that's out.
brings us back to you have to be within 10' of a shadow and you can't use your own, which puts you way farther away than the 5 foot step from the guy looking at you with the light source.
Possibly, if the torch is on a wall nearby you could be dancing in HIS shadow? But I'm not going to buy that as a DM, not and sustain combat like your are trying to rise and repeat.
The best way to do this is dropping in and out of the light radius of an enemy but that requires range or lots of movement. not 5' steps.
In my electronic version of the book it states Dim Light, not shadows, I cut and pasted for my quote.
Asphere: In all of this you never answered my question: What type of action is it to hide if you are just standing there?
This is the crux of your whole issue. It appears to me that you consider it to be a free action or a non-action. I would rule it as a move action. The book doesn't say either way, which sucks.
Do you think you can full attack and stealth in the same round? I do not.
Adding a non action, the 5-foot step, whould not then also give you the ability to add stealth.
Almost everyone agrees that a Shadowdancer can make a standard attack, and then take a 5' step and stealth. Some are calling the 5'step and stealth a "move action" and some say it isn't.
But they disagree on technicallity. Everyone agrees because you make a standard attack (standard action), and then take a 5' step (no action) and make a move action (stealth).
This is completely different than making a standard attack (standard action), and then take a 5' step (no action) and stealth for free, which would still give you the ability to make a move action (light a torch).
To that end, you will just have to decide what makes sense to you. I would venture to say that the consensus will side that stealth is a move action that works like drawing a weapon with BAB +1.
In my electronic version of the book it states Dim Light, not shadows, I cut and pasted for my quote.
Asphere: In all of this you never answered my question: What type of action is it to hide if you are just standing there?
This is the crux of your whole issue. It appears to me that you consider it to be a free action or a non-action. I would rule it as a move action. The book doesn't say either way, which sucks.
Do you think you can full attack and stealth in the same round? I do not.
Adding a non action, the 5-foot step, whould not then also give you the ability to add stealth.
Almost everyone agrees that a Shadowdancer can make a standard attack, and then take a 5' step and stealth. Some are calling the 5'step and stealth a "move action" and some say it isn't.But they disagree on technicallity. Everyone agrees because you make a standard attack (standard action), and then take a 5' step (no action) and make a move action (stealth).
This is completely different than making a standard attack (standard action), and then take a 5' step (no action) and stealth for free, which would still give you the ability to make a move action (light a torch).
To that end, you will just have to decide what makes sense to you. I would venture to say that the consensus will side that stealth is a move action that works like drawing a weapon with BAB +1.
komoda.... I have a 1st edition CRB from 2008....sooooo you could be right, perhaps that was eratta'd?
Gotta go with the most recent.... sooooo... we are back to nope....cant do it not even into someones shadow.... eeppp.... back to the drawing board.
i was the one that mentioned shadow...and I was mentioning also that it was the "Assassin" class that gets a better HiPS because his is just "a shadow within 10 ft" and even with a light spell there is bound to be a shadow since light is what causes shadows to form...never said that is was the shadowdancer HiPS :)
just clarifying XD
There is a shadow somewhere sure, but not within 5' of the guy holding the torch. which is what the OP is trying to do.
The Assassin also doesn't get his HiPS until the 8th level of the PrC so he's at least 13th level before he gets the ability. ShadowDancer could be 6th level....
Shadowdancer used to read the same as Assassins ability, I'm not sure why they both weren't erratta'd.
but even with an assassin he can't do that 5 foot step thing with a guy who has the light source.
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Not that the real world has anything to do with this game, but animals instinctively freeze while being observed. they are hoping that their natural coloring (be it fur whatever) will help them blend into the background and make it difficult for a potential predator, (the observer), to perceive them; but once they move....well that motion is often what draws a predator (the observer's) eye to their position.
So yeah, i can see one having to make a stealth check as they take a 5' step.
But it is 4:16 am for me and this is a game.....so maybe my previous observation has nothing to do with how things work in the game.
well the assassin only has to be 10 ft from a shadow not the guy hes attacking...and i know they dont get it until much later...its probably because its the best HiPS in the game lol...and i wasn't arguing the whole full attack 5 ft step thing with that...just saying that i was the one that mentioned shadows :)
anyone can hide in dim light when not being observed since it give them concealment :)
shadowdancers can do it while being observed
Assassins can do it in broad daylight next to the tree casting a shadow (no dim light required) and thats you have to be lvl 13 total (5 in something/8 in assassin) to get it :)
agreed...wat im saying is that its kinda pointless in the face of Spring attack...doing it the 5 ft step way is only getting you one sneak attack every other round and leaving you next to the opponent on the rounds you step in and attack...i totally agree that if you have HiPS that allows you to do so there should be no reason since a 5 ft step is movement (it just falls under "free action") and that it allows you to use stealth...i would rather end my turn further away from the enemy leaving him with no real idea of where I was XD
while I think the 5 ft step strategy would fail after the first round or two against an intelligent opponent and against more than one enemy...the spring attack method allows you to move further away and works well against or in a group fight
roll up some characters at lets say lvl 8...play through a few rounds of real combat with the 5 ft step thing while playing the NPC's like they have a brain and see which one works out better :)
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Except rogues aren't the only ones with stealth. You would see it on ninjas and Maguses too, for instance. And fighters and alchemists.Oh noes. A rogue doing something powerful. The sky is falling.<sarcasm>Oh, excellent! In that case, I'll just full attack every round with my rogue, and then make a non-action Stealth check at the end of my turn! I'll only get one sneak attack per turn, but that's okay because I still get multiple regular attacks.</sarcasm>
Regular stealth will not let you do this because you are being observed. Unless the ninja, Magus, fighter, or alchemist dipped into Shadowdancer to get HiPS they wouldn't be able to do it.
there would be a way to make this build work, depending on the interpretation of your DM.
The dimensional savant feat chain. Combining those actions with HiPS and movement (maybe scout levels, maybe ninja) and you could create something nasty by say level 14 or so.
there difference between the rogue that can hide in dim light and the shadow dancer is the rogue needs to be unobserved and IN dim light, the dancer can do it 10 ' INTO normal light with Dimlight being just over there.
Personally, I don't think the Assassins HiPS is meant to be different, it just got missed by the errata police.
I think HiPS for the shadow dancer at level one of the PrC is also a big mistake. makes for too many X/SD1 builds.
I would wholeheartedly agree if they didn't have such a level gap between when each HiPS was taken...until there is official errata for it my GM and everyone else I play with (these are opinions from my friends as well as me so don't go crazy) play that is a MUCH better version. If they were meant to be "the same" (again without errata) I don't see any reason they wouldn't have just used the same wording
There are lots of abilities that have the same name but are slightly different such as
Assassin lvl 4 get
Hidden Weapons (Ex)
At 4th level, an assassin becomes a master at hiding weapons on his body. He adds his assassin level to all Sleight of Hand skill checks made to prevent others from noticing them.
while Ninjas can get as a ninja trick
Hidden Weapons (Ex): A ninja with this ability can easily conceal weapons on her body. The ninja adds her level on opposed Sleight of Hand checks made to conceal a weapon. In addition, she can draw hidden weapons as a move action, instead of as a standard action.
that last part is different from the assassin's ability of the same name that does the same thing...should the assassin also get the ability to draw hidden weapons as a move action?
and so no one adds this...Spring-loaded wrist sheathe allows you to swift draw a hidden weapon anyways :)
I would wholeheartedly agree if they didn't have such a level gap between when each HiPS was taken...until there is official errata for it my GM and everyone else I play with (these are opinions from my friends as well as me so don't go crazy) play that is a MUCH better version. If they were meant to be "the same" (again without errata) I don't see any reason they wouldn't have just used the same wording
There are lots of abilities that have the same name but are slightly different such as
Assassin lvl 4 get
Hidden Weapons (Ex)
At 4th level, an assassin becomes a master at hiding weapons on his body. He adds his assassin level to all Sleight of Hand skill checks made to prevent others from noticing them.while Ninjas can get as a ninja trick
Hidden Weapons (Ex): A ninja with this ability can easily conceal weapons on her body. The ninja adds her level on opposed Sleight of Hand checks made to conceal a weapon. In addition, she can draw hidden weapons as a move action, instead of as a standard action.that last part is different from the assassin's ability of the same name that does the same thing...should the assassin also get the ability to draw hidden weapons as a move action?
and so no one adds this...Spring-loaded wrist sheathe allows you to swift draw a hidden weapon anyways :)
Before the errata they WERE both the same, so a shadow dancer uses dim light and NOT shadows? something it controls, manipulates, summons and travels in? both the assassin can use shadows? because his is better. Nah Over sight.
the difference between the levels is the assassin isn't focused on this, it's an added bonus. Would the assassin bet better off delaying his killing techniques to get HiPS sooner? No.
That was IMO...i cannot argue YOUR opinion against mine since they ARE opinions...and yes while the "fluff" of a shadowdancer is that he manipulates,controls, and moves threw shadows...his HiPS and even his shadow jump do not use "shadows" they use dim light
Shadow Jump (Su)
At 4th level, a shadowdancer gains the ability to travel between shadows as if by means of a dimension door spell. The limitation is that the magical transport must begin and end in an area with at least some dim light. A shadowdancer can jump up to a total of 40 feet each day in this way; this may be a single jump of 40 feet or four jumps of 10 feet each. Every two levels higher than 4th, the distance a shadowdancer can jump each day doubles (80 feet at 6th, 160 feet at 8th, and 320 feet at 10th). This amount can be split among many jumps, but each one, no matter how small, counts as a 10-foot increment.
this would of course all depend on your GM as well...another GM might say that they are absolutely the same no matter what the wording...it would be their call
Would you allow a shadowdancer to use his HiPS outside during the day next to a tall tree that is shedding a nice shadow? my GM would not...however he has no problem with an assassin trying it since his HiPS specifically states shadow (again its the wording...if they change it I would say otherwise)
My argument against myself is that the last sentence for both of the HiPS is
She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow.
if "dim light" wasn't shadows and they were not the same then I don't understand why the last line is in the shadowdancer HiPS lol
its just simply a real bad eratta fix.