My CoT group has just finished the first module and is gearing up for the second one. I've foreshadowed Vahnwynne Malkistra (Vampire Hunter turned vampire/ fights with stakes) as a prominent undead hunter who disappeared investigating the shadow beasts (as a warning but also to grow interest into other efforts to combat the shadow beasts.)
Anyways, I'm still a module away from her reappearance, but since she uses magical stakes as weapons and there are a slew of other vampires in the module, I can easily see a situation where my PCs will want to employ the stakes against the other vampires. Problem is, the +1 is kind of meaningless when the main actions players will take with the stakes will be outside of combat (and if she's a vampire hunter and uses them in combat, why not silver stakes to overcome their DR?), essentially administering a coup-de-grace with them.
My question is this: Has anyone developed any hard and fast rule for staking vampires in combat? Would it be considered a called shot? (which I'm aware there are no rules for in 3.5+) Would it require a critical hit to succeed (which would only be on a 20..no +1 Keen Stakes)? Would the vampire get a fortitude save to resist dying (like DC=10+dmg)?
I know this is a little outside the hard rules and delves into the house rules area, but any advice on handling this action would be appreciated.
This is what I did in 3.0, nowadays it would probably involve a combat maneuver check.
http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/monsters/fleshboundvampire.html
Beaten to the post!
A double thanks here as well. I think I'm going to use the staking rules you used there. (As long as BBEG is part 5 doesn't take one in the first round of combat.. like the movie the Gamers, "Would you let him finish talking??")
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The rules actually do kind of cover this. "Driving a wooden stake through a helpless vampire's heart instantly slays it (this is a full-round action)." To make someone in combat helpless, you can 'pin' them with some grapple checks. Then have someone else perform the coup-de-grace with the stake.
Alternatively, if you can bring the vampire to 0 and get to its coffin within 1 hour (after 1 hour it stops being helpless) then you can stake it easily then.
The new Adventurer's Armory has rules for fighting with stakes.
Which page, please?
The new Adventurer's Armory has rules for fighting with stakes.Which page, please?
On the back of the Front Cover is the description of the Wooden Stake although it can be Iron as well. It just loses the wooden quality.
Wooden Stake - Simple Light Melee Weapon
Cost -
Damage (S) 1d3
Damage (M) 1d4
Critical x2
Range 10ft
Weight 1 lb.
Type P
Special -
Slightly discussed on Page 5
EDIT: I would assume an Iron Stake may actually cost something.
Pinned is not helpless. The pinned condition prohibits most physical actions (not all, since you can attempt to escape) and makes the victim flat-footed. Helpless is a completely separate condition where the victim has an effective 0 Dexterity, cannot defend against any attack, and is vulnerable to coup-de-grace.
now actually looking at it - it doesn't give rules for staking vampires. But since you can fight with it, perhaps a critical w/ a wooden stake could = through the heart. GM ruling, of course.
Ah... :o) ... I thought, I had missed something. Thanx to ...Fox, too.
Yeah, I went through my AA as well looking for it. Fortunately, it's a short book.
There's nothing in the game rules about staking through the heart as a combat maneuver, because it's like a called shot, and the rules are abstracted because, the reasoning goes, you're ALWAYS trying to do the most possible damage, therefore everything is a called shot.
As a GM, I don't think I'd allow it as a standard maneuver for every character, because then everyone would do it every time, and vampire boss fights would become very disappointing. Possibly if the player were a dedicated vampire hunter, say a ranger with the Undead favored enemy. This feat might be too prereq-heavy, but it's the first thing that comes to mind:
VAMPIRE HUNTER
You are adept at fighting and killing vampires quickly.
Prerequisites: Weapon Focus (wooden stake), Weapon Finesse, Undead favored enemy.
Benefit: On a critical hit with a wooden stake against a vampire, vampire spawn, or any undead that suffers a special condition from a wooden stake through the heart, your attack has a chance of striking the undead's heart even if the undead is not helpless. After confirming the critical hit, make a combat maneuver check that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. If it succeeds, the stake has pierced the undead's heart, and it suffers the effects of such an event as detailed in the monster's description.
Normal: To drive a wooden stake through an undead's heart, the undead must be pinned (as by a grapple) or helpless.
VAMPIRE HUNTER
You are adept at fighting and killing vampires quickly.
Prerequisites: Weapon Focus (wooden stake), Weapon Finesse, Undead favored enemy.
Benefit: On a critical hit with a wooden stake against a vampire, vampire spawn, or any undead that suffers a special condition from a wooden stake through the heart, your attack has a chance of striking the undead's heart even if the undead is not helpless. After confirming the critical hit, make a combat maneuver check that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. If it succeeds, the stake has pierced the undead's heart, and it suffers the effects of such an event as detailed in the monster's description.
Normal: To drive a wooden stake through an undead's heart, the undead must be pinned (as by a grapple) or helpless.
Actually, I might get rid of Weapon Finesse. It does reflect an attack of precision over force, but if you Focus in the weapon, that implies you know what you're doing with it.
The rules actually do kind of cover this. "Driving a wooden stake through a helpless vampire's heart instantly slays it (this is a full-round action)." To make someone in combat helpless, you can 'pin' them with some grapple checks. Then have someone else perform the coup-de-grace with the stake.
Alternatively, if you can bring the vampire to 0 and get to its coffin within 1 hour (after 1 hour it stops being helpless) then you can stake it easily then.
Here is the right answer.
You cannot stake a vampire in the heart while fighting it because it takes a full round action against a helpless vampire.
The simple fact is that once you open this door, it gets hard to go back.
Player: Hey, DM, remember that vampire I staked in the heart with a combat maneuver just last week?
DM: of course, why?
Player: well, it's my turn to attack the drow we're fighting, and I want to stake her in the heart with my longsword. Shall I roll my CMB?
DM: No way, you can't do that!
Player: Why not? She's slower and weaker than the vampire, and I'm sure that vampire did everything it could to avoid the one thing that could easily kill it, so if I could stake him, then staking this drow should be a piece of cake...
Anyways, I'm still a module away from her reappearance, but since she uses magical stakes as weapons and there are a slew of other vampires in the module, I can easily see a situation where my PCs will want to employ the stakes against the other vampires. Problem is, the +1 is kind of meaningless when the main actions players will take with the stakes will be outside of combat (and if she's a vampire hunter and uses them in combat, why not silver stakes to overcome their DR?), essentially administering a coup-de-grace with them.
While not useful against vampires, they would be useful against the nosferatu from Pathfinder 8: Seven Days to the Grave. The Nosferatu has DR 5/wood and piercing.
Personally, I have considered applying this to type of DR to Vampires as well.
I agree with DM_Blake entirely. Since staking is essentially functioning as a coup-de-grace here it should be treated as such: a full round action against a helpless opponent. I can't imagine any enemy just standing there while you take the time to (rather obviously) line up a shot to the heart (using the same logic for why a coup-de-grace takes a full round).
To pardon one trespass is to commission a thousand... or something to that effect. If you let a PC insta-gib something with anything less then be prepared to see a lot more of it.
While driving a stake through the heart of a vampire will kill it, the same could be said for just about everything else. It is only treated different for the vampire in the sense that that specific weapon ends things right there against an otherwise much more resilient foe.
The only thing I'm concerned with is the task Wahnwynne is pursuing: How can she fight (on a core-rules-basis) vampires if she has only two magical wooden stakes? She isn't capable of harming other vampires because of their damage reduction type (magic and silver).
I gave her a ...
... as the weapon of her choice.