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As you all know, I love psionics. I even play full length modules in Pathfinder Society (*So that I can play outside the restrictions and use the Tome of Psionics) to use third party content.
I have recently gotten my copy of the Secrets of Magic and I have been reading it cover to cover. I love the fiction chapter at the beginning of the book. The World grows a bit, and a bit more fascinating.
I am not going to do something stupid like accuse people of copying from my favorite book. that would just be wrong. What I am going to say is that there are similarities dotted throughout the Secrets of Magic book. If the Tome of Psionics even remotely inspired some official content; that is akin to recognition, that the Tome of Psionics authors ideas have merit.
If not, and the same ideas arose independently. That should be flattering to the Authors of the Tome of Psionics as great minds think alike.
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Psionics have a long history in both fiction in general and D20 gaming in specific. Very little of Chad Hale's content in the Tome of Psionics is treading any kind of new ground. It is completely realistic to assume probably nobody at Paizo has read his stuff.
On that subject, to anyone interested in that book: skip it. It's poorly balanced and the author loves to go on long, insulting tirades towards even the most mild criticism towards his book. Several of his posts in the forum thread about his book got deleted, and you can still see several of his hyperaggressive rants towards "haters" on Drivethru. Do not give this man your money.
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Removed several posts involving personal attacks. Please keep discussion focused on the original topic. Thanks.
@RoyAlan, since you mentioned having the Tome of Psionics for PF2e, I was wondering if they had an ancestry that's similar to the Elan ancestry for both WOTC's D&D 3.5's Expanded Psionics Handbook and Dreamscarred Press' Ultimate Psionics for PF1e.
Basically, Elans are psionically transformed humanoids that can live indefinitely without having any maximum lifespan limitations [ie. immortal]; I had mistakenly thought that Tome of Psionics was based on the 3.5/PF1e ruleset that got translated into PF2e but it may seem that this simply isn't so.
RoyAlan wrote: What attacks? can you please show me "My" attacks?
because I'm not thrilled to find my posts deleted...
Usually, if there's a posting that gets removed, posts that referred to the removed posts may usually get removed too if they go with directly quoting the removed post- at least that's my own personal speculation on things like that...
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RoyAlan wrote: Tonya Woldridge wrote: Removed several posts involving personal attacks. Please keep discussion focused on the original topic. Thanks. What attacks? can you please show me "My" attacks?
because I'm not thrilled to find my posts deleted...
Especially when I am right. so, if you please.
show me my attacks, or restore my posts. (Paizo will not discuss these things on the forums, because that will just result in whatever the issue was getting brought back up again. You can generally reach out through the "Contact Us" link at the bottom of every page.)
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Anyway, on the original topic of the thread!
Most of the stuff discussed in Secrets of Magic are things that Paizo has been talking about since the PF2 playtest. I think they hadn't originally planned on codifying it, and were just going to use it for internal guidelines, but people responded very positively to it. I'm not sure what the exact similarities are, but I can at least say that Paizo has been discussing these concepts for at least a few years now.
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Today is a good day to... halp wrote: @RoyAlan, since you mentioned having the Tome of Psionics for PF2e, I was wondering if they had an ancestry that's similar to the Elan ancestry for both WOTC's D&D 3.5's Expanded Psionics Handbook and Dreamscarred Press' Ultimate Psionics for PF1e.
Basically, Elans are psionically transformed humanoids that can live indefinitely without having any maximum lifespan limitations [ie. immortal]; I had mistakenly thought that Tome of Psionics was based on the 3.5/PF1e ruleset that got translated into PF2e but it may seem that this simply isn't so.
I'll check the book.
Aracheen- wood elves forced to survive in deep underground caverns due to a cataclysm... they devolved and became more like the giant insects hunting them. I guess this is a "Drow alternative"?
A'Zon- A hurricane tossed fleet of warrior women, who survive on an isle to this day because a magical artifact (*The Motherstone) gives them only baby girls of superior health and beauty... can you say "Wonder woman"?
Boskop- A human off shoot with swollen skulls and the Pepck-C gene. gray pallid skin, thinning hair if any, might have solid black eyes. The gene causes metabolism to run on "fatty tissue", like brains. I guess this is the Mind flayer alternative/non-I.P. violating.
Dremori- millennia of planar exiles, adapted to an outter plane of chaos. Their bodies changed to replace keratin with metals; their hair is like wire, their fingernails are metal, the iris of their eyes is coated in metal, any scars they have or gain, are metal. They are fanatical about law and order. They are equally terrified of chaos in their lives. I don't know what these may resemble, likely original.
Feraelen- Bipedal dogoids (*or Furry kobolds?) described as "the worst traits of dogs and feral children". a small ancestry of savage, pack hunting, bipedal dogs. based on printing dates, the Feraelen existed before the shoony and from the descriptions they are nasty, not nice like the shoony.
Gian- The giant blooded. Some wizard paid a brutish barbarian tribe to take him with them across a mountain range. A terrible blizzard trapped them all on a plateau, tribes of hill giants and ogres united out of hunger. The barbarians were losing against the giant raids. So the wizard used a ring of wishes or a stash of contact outer plane scrolls to find away to give the barbarians the size and might of their foes.
He brewed a cauldron of this potion and the barbarians drank it. becoming Large size, permanently. Now the fight was a standoff, when the storm finally broke they left the mountains alive. all except the wizard, who had died in the final battle. There is no cure, no antidote.
These are Large sized humans with a short list of modifications to overcome the cubed square law and other problems of giantism.
Quell Tian- medium sized Tree Fae with a build like a halfling stretched to twice its height. natural camouflage. fey grace, wind walking, floating steps. A bond with nature that makes hot weather one stage cooler and cold weather one stage warmer, they never get sun-burnt.
Rhodex- a leathery hide, small sized, hunchbacked, orc off-shoot that curls up into a ball and tumbles as fast as an elf can run. a comedy bit about their "soft-circular" martial art that trips or throws their opponents.
Satorian- Exiled to the realm of dream for their Psionics focused culture, the satorians like to wear tribal blue tattoo art, and have a natural crystalized protuberance on the center of their brows. An advanced Psionic ancestry, I guess they resemble the people of Disney's Atlantis.
Vaus Tian- A Fey wild ancestry of slightly taller elves with a small set of ram horns curled at the temples. Their people had attained such piety that their kingdom and out-lands transcended to the shores of the seven heavens, becoming a land at the very base of Mount Celestia. Turned out that their ascension to the heavens was part of a devilish plot, and once the Vaus Tian had served their purpose, the Devils moved in to make war at the very gates of heaven. Once the fiends were repelled, the kingdom and its peoples were stripped of their divine blessing and their kingdom was placed on the mortal world.
Yan- A halfling village preyed on travelers who strayed too close. Little did this band of rogue pranksters know that they had captured, beaten and mocked a demigod. The Demi-god had the last laugh though. He shrank them the entire village and placed it inside a massive bottle inside his mountain domain. Millennia passed When the cataclysm came, the demigod died and the Yan were freed.
A TINY sized race of shrunk halflings who now struggle to survive in a world of monster sized vermin.
That's all of them. I don't see any "Elan".
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QuidEst wrote: Anyway, on the original topic of the thread!
Most of the stuff discussed in Secrets of Magic are things that Paizo has been talking about since the PF2 playtest. I think they hadn't originally planned on codifying it, and were just going to use it for internal guidelines, but people responded very positively to it. I'm not sure what the exact similarities are, but I can at least say that Paizo has been discussing these concepts for at least a few years now.
I remember a bit from a Con video, Logan Bonner stated something to the effect that he was Very interested in writing the fiction elements of the Secrets of Magic book.
Personally, I just found the Arcane "Tools of creation" to be "Similar sounding" to how the Tome of Psionics Author writes about the arcane tradition of magic. The Tome of Psionics, states something along the lines; the "Creation" was made via the "Song of creation". Fragments of this song were stolen by a being who witnessed creation, who later sold these fragments to mortals in exchange for...
Since those days of irredeemable damnation, the arcane fragments have been collected and codified to an extent. Modern practitioners don't have to give up anything to learn the Arcane script/language, or do they? It might be a hidden clause in the first soul binding contract that all who "learn" those secrets owe an eternal debt, perhaps the creator is angry that mortal "noobs" would abuse the perfect order of the creation.
my interpretation; Arcane spell casters are like script kiddies - someone who doesn't know the first thing about computer language, but still calls themselves a hacker. Like Arch-wizards declaring they have mastered the power of the universe... bah! They tinker with the fragments, not even remotely understanding the context or effects of interconnections. This is why all wizards have had the same spells since the beginning of D&D and virtually nothing has changed since.
magic missile is still magic missile
fireball is still fireball
and on and on and on...
"Ya think your an ORIGINAL... wizard?" (*Laughter ensues)
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I know I do not want a repeat of "Mage-onics".
I hope that Pathfinder 2E psionics is something different.
A natural potential of sapient beings to "do" supernatural things, like reading a friend's mind, reading an object, sensing the location of a lost item, Healing another with prolonged touch, improbable hysterical strength, perceptual oddities that seem to distort time and space, the vanishing or appearance of small items, even un-caused "preturbation" of inanimate objects, or spontaneous fires.
None of the above deserve to be "Spells", they are something like incidental precursor states. Psionic ability is more like the sounding of a single letter, while spells are scripts/programs.
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RoyAlan wrote: I know I do not want a repeat of "Mage-onics".
I hope that Pathfinder 2E psionics is something different.
A natural potential of sapient beings to "do" supernatural things, like reading a friend's mind, reading an object, sensing the location of a lost item, Healing another with prolonged touch, improbable hysterical strength, perceptual oddities that seem to distort time and space, the vanishing or appearance of small items, even un-caused "preturbation" of inanimate objects, or spontaneous fires.
None of the above deserve to be "Spells", they are something like incidental precursor states. Psionic ability is more like the sounding of a single letter, while spells are scripts/programs.
I think between Occult Adventures, the inclusion of the occult spell list in PF2, and their talk about psychics, it's pretty unlikely that Paizo is going to making psionics. They left that to third-party publishers in first edition.
The sorts of non-spell things you describe above were represented in PF1 with occult skill unlocks, which seem most likely to be skill feats in PF2. (Reading a friend's mind, reading an object, healing with prolonged touch, and sensing the location of certain things were all covered, as were certain forms of reading the future. Moving objects and lighting fires fell more under kineticist.) They approached those themes more through the lens of 1800s mysticism and occultism than the lens of 1900s science fiction and parapsychology.
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QuidEst wrote: I think between Occult Adventures, the inclusion of the occult spell list in PF2, and their talk about psychics, it's pretty unlikely that Paizo is going to making psionics. They left that to third-party publishers in first edition.
The sorts of non-spell things you describe above were represented in PF1 with occult skill unlocks, which seem most likely to be skill feats in PF2. (Reading a friend's mind, reading an object, healing with prolonged touch, and sensing the location of certain things were all covered, as were certain forms of reading the future. Moving objects and lighting fires fell more under kineticist.) They approached those themes more through the lens of 1800s mysticism and occultism than the lens of 1900s science fiction and parapsychology.
I agree with all of the above. though, some of their content seems to be already in print. The Occult sorcerer is very much a "psychic lite". With the Secrets of magic, we have the phantom summoning medium. I am certain that more will follow. Hell, who knows what the Playtest classes will be?
At least one youtube channel has suggested the occultist and another the kineticist, already.
However, they keep surprising us with what they write. Some have suggested that the swashbuckler class was already covered by the Dex fighter and the rogue class, and thus there would be no swashbuckler class- I for one am pleasantly surprised by all of the classes in the Advanced Players Guide. The Inquisitor is a MAJOR fan favorite, but some have suggested that it might be reduced to a cleric doctrine. When I look at all of the options, I wonder if the ninja class is another Rogue Racket. I wonder if the samurai is going to be like the cavalier, an archetype. No rumors I have heard are set in stone, all of them are speculation. Obviously, I do not know!
So we have a lot to be hopeful about, and even more to look forward to...
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I look at some of the spells in the secrets of magic and I see hints of the tome of psionics. I like the Blame power from the Tome of psionics, and I am pleased to see "shift blame" on the occult list.
Hey, I am really surprised that anyone at Paizo knows anything about the oneiroi. I hope they know about Morpheus; no not from the Matrix movies, and not so much the Sandman books by Neil Gaiman. Yet, here I see a spell "oneiric mire" which reads a bit like the Shadow sink power from the Apport art.
and there's more hints, but I think to mention some of those would be really reaching, really stretching to make a connection that isn't there.
as mentioned in the original post;
If the Tome of Psionics did inspire, the author should be thankful for the recognition, such as it is.
If the those ideas were arrived at independently, the author should be flattered as great minds do think alike.
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RoyAlan wrote: I look at some of the spells in the secrets of magic and I see hints of the tome of psionics. I like the Blame power from the Tome of psionics, and I am pleased to see "shift blame" on the occult list.
Hey, I am really surprised that anyone at Paizo knows anything about the oneiroi. I hope they know about Morpheus; no not from the Matrix movies, and not so much the Sandman books by Neil Gaiman. Yet, here I see a spell "oneiric mire" which reads a bit like the Shadow sink power from the Apport art.
and there's more hints, but I think to mention some of those would be really reaching, really stretching to make a connection that isn't there.
as mentioned in the original post;
If the Tome of Psionics did inspire, the author should be thankful for the recognition, such as it is.
If the those ideas were arrived at independently, the author should be flattered as great minds do think alike.
The problem with thinking Tome of Psionics inspired anything in Secrets of Magic is thinking that Tome of Psionics is original itself. It's not hard to arrive at similar locations when they use similar inspiration, and it has nothing to do with 'great minds'.
Perhaps it's been improved over the years, but what I read in the Tome of Psionics two years ago was a mess - a friend had purchased it hoping to use it in our games, he's a huge psionics fan - and did not fit in 2e in the slightest. Given that, I have no inclinations to see if the book *has* improved, it's not worth the money. My friend has thrown his old copy out.
All the tantrums thrown by the author are another reason he's never getting a dollar from me.
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maelstromm15 wrote: Perhaps it's been improved over the years, but what I read in the Tome of Psionics two years ago was a mess - a friend had purchased it hoping to use it in our games, he's a huge psionics fan - and did not fit in 2e in the slightest. Given that, I have no inclinations to see if the book *has* improved, it's not worth the money. My friend has thrown his old copy out.
All the tantrums thrown by the author are another reason he's never getting a dollar from me.
The Tome of Psionics has had a revision since then and there will be another. I have a copy and I love it. it is a solid Pathfinder 2E book, with its rules coming from the core rule book.
I don't care if the author had to defend himself from internet people. I've seen all the reviews too, and the negative reviews are specious at best. I'd say there are plenty of trolls throwing hate and irrationality. Especially, trolls who don't even bother to read. "Oh! focus points have me so confused" writes one, Am I the only the one who knows how to open the core rule book and go to the spells chapter and read the rules about focus? I don't think so. In Fact, I know so.
I have the book. Its a solid Pathfinder 2E book. I like it, a lot. Its a copper seller over at drive thru rpg, I've no idea what that means, but I am certain that a lot of other people have bought a copy and like it. There are positive reviews and I haven't written mine YET! Comments like yours have sealed the deal for me though.
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RoyAlan wrote: maelstromm15 wrote: Perhaps it's been improved over the years, but what I read in the Tome of Psionics two years ago was a mess - a friend had purchased it hoping to use it in our games, he's a huge psionics fan - and did not fit in 2e in the slightest. Given that, I have no inclinations to see if the book *has* improved, it's not worth the money. My friend has thrown his old copy out.
All the tantrums thrown by the author are another reason he's never getting a dollar from me.
The Tome of Psionics has had a revision since then and there will be another. I have a copy and I love it. it is a solid Pathfinder 2E book, with its rules coming from the core rule book.
I don't care if the author had to defend himself from internet people. I've seen all the reviews too, and the negative reviews are specious at best. I'd say there are plenty of trolls throwing hate and irrationality. Especially, trolls who don't even bother to read. "Oh! focus points have me so confused" writes one, Am I the only the one who knows how to open the core rule book and go to the spells chapter and read the rules about focus? I don't think so. In Fact, I know so.
I have the book. Its a solid Pathfinder 2E book. I like it, a lot. Its a copper seller over at drive thru rpg, I've no idea what that means, but I am certain that a lot of other people have bought a copy and like it. There are positive reviews and I haven't written mine YET! Comments like yours have sealed the deal for me though.
With the qualifier that it's been more than a year since I read it:
The version I read attempted to shoehorn the focus system into a pseudo-power-point system. It didn't even work as written. There was a feat that was supposed to let you get more focus points, but it didn't say you could take it more than once, so you were forever stuck at 2 points. The feat had some qualifier about "if it gets you above 3" but didn't actually say that it *could* get you above 3 points, since RAW you cap out at 3, unambiguously. It also specified that you still only restore 1 point when you refocus, and I don't remember it having any feats like the wellspring feats other casters get, so they could never restore more than 1 point. It kneecapped the class in a fundamental way, because it could only use its premiere feature once per combat.
Then the "Secondary Score" thing. It was unnecessary, and something that no class in pf2 gets. It allows you to have an 18 in two separate stats at level 1, which is explicitly not a thing under the pathfinder 2e rules, and one of those score options was Con! That's totally ridiculous. And would be completely broken if they could actually use their class feature. Which they couldn't.
Plus it brought back archaic systems like armor check penalties. Ugh.
You keep framing it as the reviewers being confused or lazy, but the whole book was written by someone who didn't understand the core system. And, again, perhaps these issues have been fixed. But that doesn't fix the fact that my friend was sold a broken, unusable product in multiple ways, and when people try to point it out they get nothing in return but abuse, rather than understanding and discussion.
I'm sure there's people out there that might like the book, but it's certainly not worth the price to me.
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maelstromm15 wrote: The version I read attempted to shoehorn the focus system into a pseudo-power-point system. It didn't even work as written. There was a feat that was supposed to let you get more focus points, but it didn't say you could take it more than once, so you were forever stuck at 2 points. The feat had some qualifier about "if it gets you above 3" but didn't actually say that it *could* get you above 3 points, since RAW you cap out... I am not the author, I do not have the older version of the book.
My copy says that "Your secondary ability modifier adds focus points." There is only two choices of secondary ability modifier: wisdom or Constitution. the only way you could have been stuck at 1 focus point is if you only had a 12 or 13 in your chosen secondary and it never improved.
Feats that specify they can only be taken at (requirement) is the norm.
Anyone who meets the prerequisites can purchase any feat they meet the requirements of. In the current book there is only one restriction on how many times one could purchase "knowledge is power" or the 4th level feat for a bonded focus crystal. that is the core rulebook limit of three focus points and the number of investment points you have (in most cases 10) as you either "invest" in focused items to get more focus... or have a secondary ability score greater than 12-13, or take feats like "Knowledge is power".
Every point you go OVER the limit of 3 focus, reduces your investiture by one for each. So an 18 (+4) secondary ability would give you 4 points of focus and cost you one investment point. A 20 secondary ability score would be 5 points of focus and cost you two of your points that you could invest in magic items.
Core rule book: I can easily build a human monk and have 2 focus points at level one, and as I gain levels and spend class feats on more focus spells If the feat says "You gain one focus"... you gain one focus.
now Ki rush, Ki strike, and Ki blast are just a few of the monk's focus spells. General rule, RAW: the monk Caps at three focus points.
Focus isn't a spell point system...
(well, if you are playing an Evoker wizard using the force bolt focus spell, I guess it is)
How many classes have focus spells? bard, champion, cleric, druid, magus, monk, oracle, ranger, Sorcerer, summoner, witch, wizard...
Did I forget somebody? on average how many focus spells are available to each class? I do not know. That's the core rule book! so, is the focus point system a spell point system? I'll let you read the core rules and decide.
The Tome of Psionics that I have says, (Specific rule, trumps General RAW *You can have more than 3 focus, for every point above the limit of 3, you lose one point of investiture.
how likely is it that you will every have more than 13 focus points? I don't know, sounds hard to attain even with a 24 secondary ability +7, class feats for knowledge is power, and receptacle, or focused items. or, wait...
eleven class feats by level 20, and who knows how many items you could have bought! at high levels You might need the general feat (what's the name) "Extreme investiture"? to get the maximum of +2 more investiture.
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maelstromm15 wrote: It also specified that you still only restore 1 point when you refocus, and I don't remember it having any feats like the wellspring feats other casters get, so they could never restore more than 1 point. It kneecapped the class in a fundamental way, because it could only use its premiere feature once per combat. Well, the core rule book for refocus says... you recover one point of focus when you refocus (10 minute rest, but it is also listed as an Exploration activity!)
in my copy of the book, at level 6 there's a Class Feature that increases the amount of focus you can recover with refocus, another at level 12, and again at level 18. there's also: Resonant ability at level 2, harmonic ability at level 4, and the feat which can give you a second harmonic ability at level 6.
At level 5 there is Trance. You can keep using the same power over and over, *FOR FREE* as long as you keep beating the activation roll DC.
If you are a pyro, or a psychic blade, or other kind of psychic, in combat... Trance is like having a quiver of arrows for those powers.
I do not see any "Kneecap" in my copy of the book.
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of note, magic weapons do not require investment, I don't know of the top of my head which kinds of items do and which don't but that is a little reading I need to do. So if you've hit a really hard cap on focus points and don't have any investment points left - You aren't entirely banned from owning and using magic items.
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There’s nothing to be gained here. I recommend walking away and letting the mods clean up.
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Who are you talking to? Because it definitely doesn’t seem to be me.
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I imagine most of this thread will vanish tomorrow morning.
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Not a fan of Pixar, I take it?
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There is a Chrome extension and Firefox addon to do just that.
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No editing, but blocking of users.
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If someone is calling you names you aren't, the answer is "flag and move on", not "aggressively misgender". (Flag button, personal insult/abuse.)
In the interest of finding out what was going on, I looked at the sample for the Tome of Psionics. I had to check my copy of the CRB too. Secondary ability scores show up in a little recommendation table, and don't do anything special. Having them show up in the class in a section normally reserved for "things you get from the class", doing something mechanical, is potentially a little confusing. So, yeah, people are making some mistakes in their reading, but it's also set up in a way that is likely to lead to those mistakes. And they're probably not wrong that a pool of focus points keyed of a secondary stat is a deviation from PF2 design norms. Now, if you're making a dedicated focus caster, you'll need to deviate somewhere. A lot of third party stuff needs to strike a balance of originality and working with the system. That balance is never going to work for everyone.
Folks aren't keen on the book in part because of what they see as aggressive responses by the author to criticism. Responding aggressively to criticism of the book yourself is really unlikely to change opinions. You can still show what CRB elements features are based on while acknowledging things like even though attack spells exist in the CRB, not everyone is on board with rolling to see if their buff "hits".
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Grankless wrote: FYI, you only have 10 minutes in which to edit posts. You may want to remember that for the next sockpuppet, Chad. I believe you get an hour to edit. Not that it is likely to help here.
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