I'm curious as to how the character is built? I believe somebody posted it could be a misunderstanding of some rule or other error. I'd like to see the build.
I've got the breakdown of the AC. I'm waiting for the full character build.
10 Base AC
4 Armor (4 Mage Armor)
2 Deflection (2 Ring of Protection)
1 Dexterity (+1 Dexterity)
16 Natural (2 Amulet of NA, 4 Improved NA Evolution, 2 Size, 6 Eidolon Level, 2 Biped Base Form)
2 Shield (2 Shielded Meld Synthesist ability)
-1 Size (Large Size)
1 Insight (Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone)
Second, assumingly the build is legit, how does it compare to the other characters? Maybe the solution is helping the other characters achieve comparable resilience and then scaling the encounters to the new power level of the characters?
As I mentioned at the beginning of the thread, I'm running the Shattered Star Adventure Path. I'm running an Adventure Path because I don't want to have to design combats--I don't have the time to design combats, especially at higher levels, and I want to be able to run things "out of the box". So all the advice to "just summon in a bunch of Balors" or "design better encounters" is not helpful. I don't want to design encounters. If I did, I wouldn't be playing Pathfinder.
There are other characters which are reasonably optimized. There's a Tetori monk who shuts down pretty much any 1-vs-1 fight in the first round (and boy, do these Adventure Paths LOVE to throw single sorcerers against the party). There's a sneaky invisible goblin alchemist who can blow up virtually any encounter with a lucky stink bomb (make a fort save or take a single move action each round for 1d4+1 rounds).
The thing is, with the other characters, I can kind of work around it. I've come close to killing the monk many times. If I make the fort save against the alchemist, he's not doing a ton of damage round to round.
With the Synthesist Summoner, I haven't got any outs.
If he is min/maxed, he must have some stat at 7 or even 5.
You're misunderstanding the Synthesist. When the Eidolon is summoned, you take the Eidolon's physical stats and the Summoner's mental stats. He literally has no stats below 13, and most of them are 15+.
I'm just sitting here wondering why 35 AC at level 10 is "obscene".
In the Adventure Path I'm running, most of the creatures (making up encounters from CR 8-12) have to-hits of +12 to +18. One has a +19. The main villain at the end of the path has a +20, and is CR 14.
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Kinda reminds me of 3.5 druids...
Anyways, his stats are not outside of the bounds of reason if he was power gaming. A Kensai Magus at around that level can have quite a bit more AC, good will, fort, and reflex saves (due to high dex) and still be great for being on the offense.
So, it's not necessarily about one class. This is more about player dynamics.
As others have suggested, ask him to "tone it down". Maybe tell him to keep the character as is, but to purposely take a -2 or 3 to attacks rolls and AC, or to all combat oriented d20 rolls. If an encounter gets tough, let him know to bring out all his guns. That way, the rest of the group feels good. A GM actually asked this of me, and it was a great way to handle the situation. I began playing a character who was lazy until he thought things were getting out of control.
Asking him to outright recreate a character can be frustrating, but asking him to tone it down a bit will give him the satisfaction that he built a really, really good character. Then, reward him occasionally by sending a really tough encounter at them, so that he will still be able to see the full potential of his character and feel the satisfaction of it. Tell him afterwards what the CR of the encounter was :)
I'm just sitting here wondering why 35 AC at level 10 is "obscene".In the Adventure Path I'm running, most of the creatures (making up encounters from CR 8-12) have to-hits of +12 to +18. One has a +19. The main villain at the end of the path has a +20, and is CR 14.
Remember, at 10th level, CR 10 encounters are supposed to be easy peasy. CR 8 is supposed to be nothing more than a speedbump.
Even the average CR 10 has a chance of hitting him (attack bonuses at +18 or so aren't uncommon) and since you say he does 90 DPR, he should be taking about 2 rounds to kill any CR 10 guy, which is the expected enocunter length for an encounter like that.
However, I think the AP may be the problem, not the character. He's certainly not an "obscene powergamer" as you seem to think.
That CR 14 with a +20 to-hit is quite a weak foe unless he's meant to be primarily a spellcaster. Pulling 5 random monsters from the CR 14 list, I didn't find a single one with an attack bonus of less than 23, and all had at least 3 attacks (the natural attack monsters having the 23 or higher on ALL attacks).
That 23 still gives them a slightly hard time hitting (they need a 12 or higher to hit), but remember that's the LOWEST I found (one was 24, one was 26/25, one went up to 27 but dropped with iteratives, etc), and they all have enough HP to tank 90 DPR for a few rounds easy.
With party support they drop quicker, but that's because single monsters suck.
You may need to tweak the AP some. They're balanced for parties of 4, made up of Fighter/Cleric/Rogue/Wizard, not anything even vaguely outlandish. You need to adapt to your party.
Pretty much, yeah.
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Tell him, point blank, that you're banning the Synthesist. It's simply broken.
As a side note, I assume most of these characters have been run from 1st level? It's been my experience, whatever the class, when a character is introduced into a party of characters that have leveled up organically several times that the new character tends to be relatively dominant.
The ability to spend a bunch of high level WBL towards a specific build instead of working found items into your character is really powerful.
Doesn't strike me as powergaming overall though. Most of those numbers are in line with my party at around that level from a couple years ago (mostly fighters).
Unlike others I tend to think the problem has nothing to do with the synthesist, and more to do with optimization in general given what appears to be a relatively unoptimized party. I'd simply ask him to tone things down a bit, or perhaps role a new character, if you want to continue to run AP's out of the book with no adjustments. Explain why (namely you don't have time to adjust everything because of him).
This is a group problem, not a game system problem.
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Tell him to reroll regular summoner for reasons I posted on page 1, Just ctrl+f and look for me.
Doesn't strike me as powergaming overall though. Most of those numbers are in line with my party at around that level from a couple years ago (mostly fighters).
I got his build. He's level 9 (not 10).
Half-Elf
STR 7 (31)
DEX 7 (13)
CON 18 (18)
INT 14
WIS 14
CHA 17
HP: 84 (154)
Evolutions:
Bite
Claws (x2)
Energy Attacks (Electricity)
Improved Natural Armor (x2)
Large Size
Limbs (Arms, x2)
Limbs (Legs)
Magic Attacks
Pull (Bite)
Reach (Bite)
Trip (Bite)
Magic:
Amulet of Natural Armor +2
Belt of Giant Strength +4
Dusty Rose Ioun Stone
Ring of Protection +2
Attacks:
Bite: +16 (1d8+10+1d6 electricity), +pull, +trip
Claws (x4): +16 (1d6+10+1d6 electricity)
Feats:
Combat Reflexes
Extra Evolution (x2)
Power Attack
Resilient Eidolon
Jumping out at me...
I don't think he qualifies to take power attack or combat reflexes, because his ability scores (without the suit) are not high enough to qualify. There is some argument about this (some argue you can keep the suit on for 24 hours and use the permanent bonus rule), but you are definitely within your rights to say no to them.
I see 17 points spent out of an available 17 (so he's good there) assuming he is running the half elf favorite class option.
I'm curious as to how he's averaging 90 damage a round, considering his max (without crits) is 112 if all attacks hit. Does he regularly land all his attacks on enemies that average AC 23 (at CR 9) to 27 (CR 12)? Does he get to full attack every round? I suppose power attack could drive that max up, but then he's landing fewer hits with his weak to-hit bonus.
Generally speaking I'd expect a 9th level frontline character to be swinging at ~+22 or so for their first attack.
His AC is good, but not great.
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Whileit's obvious that he's shamelessly cheesing out his attribute, the final build doesn't seem to be anything impressive. His AC is really high for a 9th level character, but that wouldn't upset me.
His spells can make him really powerful, though. With the right buffs, eh can very well out-damage a Fighter. That's the problem of Synthesists, IMO, they are difficult to have around without completely obsoleting martial classes... That and the fact that it has confusing and needlessly complicated rules.
I simply ban the archetype for the sake of simplicity, although I've been studying ways to make it better balanced. Simply forcing the Summoner to keep his own attributes instead of replacing them with the ones of his Eidolon should suffice... This way the Summoner gets the evolutions, but can't dump Str and Dex.
Whileit's obvious that he's shamelessly cheesing out his attribute, the final build doesn't seem to be anything impressive. His AC is really high for a 9th level character, but that wouldn't upset me.
His spells can make him really powerful, though. With the right buffs, eh can very well out-damage a Fighter. That's the problem of Synthesists, IMO, they are difficult to have around without completely obsoleting martial classes... That and the fact that it has confusing and needlessly complicated rules.
I simply ban the archetype for the sake of simplicity, although I've been studying ways to make it better balanced. Simply forcing the Summoner to keep his own attributes instead of replacing them with the ones of his Eidolon should suffice... This way the Summoner gets the evolutions, but can't dump Str and Dex.
I had a thought of adding the Eidolon's ability mods to the character's scores a few months ago - though I think this is a problem that really fades as you get higher up in levels (or doesn't exist at all if you use higher base arrays or disallow dumping).
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Again, people can say "I have a <blank> focused character that can get the same AC or saves or whatever"
Can someone show me a non-synthesist that can have all high ability scores?
This is the one thing you can't do with another character (assuming 20 PB or less). Thankfully, not character actually needs that.
And have all high saves?
No, but this guy doesn't have all high saves.
And high AC? And strong melee DPR?
Yes.
And cast 4th level spells?
Magus and Inquisitor say hi.
Also Ranger and Paladin if you drop that to "cast spells".
And get 3 + cha summons a day?
"Who else gets this special ability unique to the Summoner class? No one? Well obviously that means it's automatically OP lol."
And jacked up skill scores?
Anybody who invests in skills.
Especially the Magus of the other 6 level casters.
And the temporary HP?
All of the Full BaB classes meet or exceed the HP totals he will have here.
3/4 BaB classes all come close (they'll likely have a somewhat lower Con).
People keep comparing one facet that matches, but I've yet to see someone show an example of a character that matches all the things the Synth is doing.
"Matches all"?
Naw.
But "Matches many, exceeds some, is worse at others"? Definitely.
And "Achieves much higher DPR with a comparable AC"? Sure.
And since the DPR and the AC were what were called out as problems...
This isn't a particularly optimized Synthesist. His player looks like he took steps to tone it down a touch to be nice.
He's only got 3 Natural Attacks, but went for more utility to help his teammates (Reach/Trip/Pull).
You can build some MONSTROUS Eidolons with 12 natural attacks that shred anything that gets near. Those are kinda ridiculous.
This? This is a solid build.
But not one born of "obscene powergaming".
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Oh please. My PFS-legal barbarian had an AC approaching 40 at that level while raging and could DPR that summoner under the table. At any rate, he has built his character to specialize. Don't punish someone because they've got enough system mastery to do that, though I will say synthesist is usually iffy. But uh... this guy's synthesist is just "good." It is not "powergamed" by any stretch of the word.
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And again, a well built Synthesist might as well be called the Fighter/Wizard/Conjurer/Rogue/Cleric. I think it's banned by organized play for a good reason.
Right, because it doesn't fit what they are going for and is in practice complicated with a potential to slow down the game.
Saying "it is banned in PFS and it is therefore broken" is flatly manipulating what the banlist in PFS is intended to accomplish. In most cases it has nothing to do with being powerful.
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And again, a well built Synthesist might as well be called the Fighter/Wizard/Conjurer/Rogue/Cleric. I think it's banned by organized play for a good reason.Right, because it doesn't fit what they are going for and is in practice complicated with a potential to slow down the game.
Saying "it is banned in PFS and it is therefore broken" is flatly manipulating what the banlist in PFS is intended to accomplish. In most cases it has nothing to do with being powerful.
The Undead Lord cleric archetype certainly didn't get banned for its level of power, I can tell you that much.
Gladiator Fighter, Wild Rager Barbarian, Musketeer Vavalier, Knight of the Sepulcher and Holy Gun Paladins, Trophy Hunter Ranger, Siege Mage Wizard, Spellslinger Wizard, Reincarnated Druid, Broodmaster Summoner, Clone Master Alchemist, Gravewalker Witch.
Ect. Tons of discoveries and talents.
It is about achieving a specific kind of feel at tables and within the Society as a whole. It is ideally easy to run for GMs with a very neutral feel to things for players so that every player is comfortable at every table.
"In most cases"
Pardon me while I dump Str, Dex, and Con for more ability points with hardly any drawbacks.
Well, that extra +1 modifier to your charisma or intelligence score is really what makes or breaks you, let me tell you.
Spoilers ahead for the Shattered Star Adventure Path.
People keep overlooking the fact that I'm running an Adventure Path, and I don't want to have to rewrite every single encounter to deal with this character.
The first combat was CR 13, against 9 ettins and 6 hill giants. Given the hill giant's 21 AC and +14/+9 to-hit, he basically soloed it.
Upcoming combats are:
4 Redcaps (CR 10). +10 to hit and 20 AC. He'll solo it.
Redcap Rogue with 4 Redcaps (CR 12). This will be tough, since the leader has rogue levels, so he's +18/+12 to hit, so at least he's got a 30% to hit in flank (and a 3% chance to crit!) and he'll do about 30 damage/hit with Sneak Attack (or a whopping 96/hit if he crits). Of course, the other members of the party have an AC between 19 and 29, and hit points that top out around 90, so he's a much bigger threat to them. And the other redcaps are just there to provide flanking opportunities.
Redcap bard with 4 advanced dust mephits (CR 9): the Bard might get a lucky Hold Person off (30% chance) otherwise the combat's a joke. He'll solo it.
2 Nyogoth Qlippoth (CR 11): +15 to hit and 24 AC. The biggest threat to the summoner is the 1d6 acid they do to all adjacent creatures every time they get hit. He'll solo it.
Ettin fighter and 3 ettins (CR 11): +15 to hit and 24 AC. He'll solo it.
Male juju zombie bugbear and 3 mummies (CR 11): The boss has +18 to hit and 28 AC. There's a 2/3 chance the summoner is paralyzed by fear and the party wipes. Otherwise, he solos it.
2 Vrocks (CR 9): +13 to hit and AC 22. He'll solo it.
Medusa cleric w/redcap and hill giant (CR 12): 40% to turn to stone from the Medusa. Otherwise, the cleric has no damaging spells, and just channels negative energy. He'll solo it.
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A CR 9 encounter is supposed to be average difficulty for a party of 4 level 9 characters. This single character can handle them without breaking a sweat. Something's seriously wrong, there.
And any adjustments I make to the difficulty of the encounter is going to wipe the rest of the party, who *do* seem to be appropriately powered.
looking at the build, it doesn't seem all that broken--certainly solid, but most definitely not cheesy.
while i personally frown upon the dumps, he's left with a few weaknesses to his "suit up" strategy for stat-coverage:
-he thinks he can keep his suit on all the time. this shouldnt be the case, as most normal folk wont let anything into town that looks like a four-armed betentacled monstrosity. he'd be more likely met with arrows and torches than that.
-if he's donning the suit via ritual, that takes time to set up, so exploit that if you want to challenge him. if he's donning it via the summon eidolon spell, he can be shut down by a dismissal (the ritual one cant be dismissed via spell, but the spell one can). he's susceptible to anything that affects monsters--hold monster and protection from (alignment) are a mean pair.
-his ac has mage armor already set in: mage armor's duration isnt too terribly amazing, and it takes him a round to buff up at the beginning of battle--two if he needs to summon his eidolon via spell. those are rounds he's not contributing to the fight, which you can take advantage of.
-aim for his tough or flat-footed AC to help alleviate the AC issue. have enemies gang up and trip/grapple him to further do so, as well as screwing with any casting he might attempt.
-use multiple opponents; if he has to divide his attention/attack routine to multiple targets, it's lowering his overall DPR (and giving the other players a chance to shine in taking them out)
-swarms and flying enemies challenge pretty much anything, as does enemies that use hit-and-run tactics (fun fact: while vital strike doesnt work with spring attack, it works fine with flyby attack!)
-try giving him a taste of his own medicine, in reverse; send a regular summoner (or even a wizard with a few summon monster spells prepped) after him who will swamp him in minions to wade through while he blasts at the rest of the party
if he's been murdering his way through shattered star, he'll have gained a reputation amongst the usual troublemakers--folks would likely get wise to his tactics and adjust accordingly, attacking him while he's sleeping, or using mor subtle methods like poison or political maneuvering to see him killed or ostracized (he's not a threat to their activities if he's kept out of them altogether).
just some stuff off the top of my head.
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you also don't have to punish the player if the party is keeping up with it--let them relish their successes!
What's the point buy you gave your players? I'm getting a 19...
20 point buy.
And I still don't see why any of this is obscene.
All of the other characters have AC's between 20 and 30, and to hits around +13. This seems to be in-line with the assumed power level for the Adventure Path. Having a single character far outstrip the power level of the others means the encounters are all cakewalks, or I'll wipe everyone making it challenging for him.
Is everyone's contention that the Adventure Paths are far, far underpowered jokes that no one would dream of running without massive redesign? Because I'm having trouble reconciling the encounters I'm reading (and posted above) with the idea that the synthesist I posted above is merely an average, expected build.
A well power gamed character can take a few above that. For a well built team, CR=ACL+3 should be relatively easy encounters.
So the designed encounters for the Adventure Paths are useless, then?
So the designed encounters for the Adventure Paths are useless, then?
A well power gamed character can take a few above that. For a well built team, CR=ACL+3 should be relatively easy encounters.
Yes, that is why I never run them. Setting up combat for mid to high level play isn't that hard. You should know your groups tendency's now play to them.
Occasionally add something happening pretty close that can be taken care of so mighty mouse I mean the synth can go hero up at.
edit: Also if he's relying on the level one spell to get his meat suit out fast....add a dispelling wizard or equip important melee guys with a spell storing device to counter it.
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I'm sure they are but there are a vocal minority who cry "The DM is a dick when he limits this!"
It's those I suspect don't DM.
I've been actively playing and DMing for a long, long time now. Now bearing that in mind let me tell you that I still don't believe in limiting my players. I see no reason I shouldn't reward creative builds or those that otherwise display massive levels of system mastery. Besides, it's a lot harder to just straight overwhelm the content when your GM is also probably the best optimizer you know--let'em min-max all they want. All you do is adjust the playing field to match. Toss CR out the window and take a more direct hand in altering your monsters rather than just "choosing" what to use from a predetermined list.
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So the designed encounters for the Adventure Paths are useless, then?
A well power gamed character can take a few above that. For a well built team, CR=ACL+3 should be relatively easy encounters.
Are your characters having fun? Honestly your Synthesist player is not the powergamey mess some people were expecting initially. If he's not leaving time in combat for other people to shine, just ask him if he wouldn't mind using his bite attack a bit more often. It's not broken, and it exerts quite a bit of control, particularly with combat reflexes. Talk to him about giving other players a chance to shine. I'm currently playing in the Kingmaker AP with my Zen Archer and it's pretty powerful for the level. But my friends and I have fun, and it's an enjoyable time for all. We all zap stuff down, and we all give each other a chance to show off our strengths. As long as your players are enjoying themselves, they don't have to be terribly challenged. I'm aware the ideal scenario involves fear of death, but your lack of time to coordinate indicates that this is a slightly more casual venture for you, and if you just want to sit around with your friends, relax, and play, then I don't think you should worry too much about the difficulty.
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So the designed encounters for the Adventure Paths are useless, then?
A well power gamed character can take a few above that. For a well built team, CR=ACL+3 should be relatively easy encounters.
No, but it strongly depends on the number of characters, the experience of your players, and the point-buy you allowed. The APs are written assuming 4 PCs, players who have maybe played through another AP, not much more, and a 15-point buy. Any deviation from these will mean more work for you, the GM, to taylor the campaign to your group.
I personally played Shattered Star as written with a group of 4 experienced players with a 15-point buy and it worked very well, if a little rough for the PCs.
Extra +1? Wha? Without even giving it any thought: assimar lvl 1:
Str 7, Dex 7, Con 7 Int 10, Wis 18, Cha 20 and the physical stats become normal or above average with eidelon.
Yes, you can play games and take away the eidelon then make them have to make a con check and yadda yadda. It's still a class that is begging to be munchkized and abused.
And how is it Summoner isn't complex enough to ban yet Synthesist is?
And strayshift it seems to be some people's view that if you don't spend hours of your free time scouring to find all the gadgets to make an elite character to keep up with Super Player, you deserve to die. Chose that 14 charisma for your CRB only fighter because you liked the idea of it? Hope you have a backup character written out.
This IS the players backup character...