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So one thing I enjoy in PFS is teamwork and support. I also have seen a great deal of people trying to place Cavaliers into weird roles, or constantly hearing that because I cannot take my mount all the time, Cavaliers sort of fall to the side. So, as requested from a friend of mine, I am showing where the Cavalier excels.
The Support Fighter.
At Level 10, I can provide someone adjacent to me +9 - +14 towards their AC, all of which is stack able with their current AC due to it being Untyped, Dodge, or said to enhance a current score. I have been doing ridiculous AC support since about level 4 with my Cavalier. I can pull a AC 19 wizard to around AC 30. Typical Magus AC of 23-24, is now 37-38. All while providing +3 Morale Bonus to hit the baddy.
I will say this again, Cavaliers do NOT need their companions to be useful. Mounts are fun, and we get a couple cool gimmiks, but I am so tired of people saying since dungeons are so prevalent Cavaliers without their mounts are somewhat lackluster.
I cant count the number of times I have been assisting new people in class selection and when I get to cavaliers, multiple people will always comment to stay away from them cause mounts cant fit in dungeons. I heard it playing my cavalier even up to now at level 10.
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It figures a Virginian would tout the cavalier...
That said Zach, I'm in your camp. You can do some neat "buffs" and heck, you still get full BAB, heavy armor proficiency, and challenge.
That said, can you post some details on your build? I've got a level 1 human cav (in his first game, I'm so proud!). But I can't find quite what I've been looking for on build advice - primarily feat selection.
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Level 10 Elf(8 Cavalier(Honor Guard)/2 Golden Legionnaire)
AoO - Aid Another BodyGuard: Dragon +4, Honor Guard +1 = +5 Untyped
Challenge - Honor Guard Challenge: +1 Dodge
Move Action - Golden Legionnaire Authoritative Command: +1 Untyped
Swift Action - Golden Legionnaire United Defense: +2 Dodge
7 Rounds/Standard Action - Shield Wall: +2 Enhancement to Shield
edit: Also keep in mind Authoritative Command and Shieldwall Tactician ability are essentially aura based.
+11 to AC when everything is pumping. I feel like I am missing something but I cannot think of it.
Liran: (incredibly unoptimized)
STR: 16
DEX: 12
CON: 14(+2 Belt)16
INT: 14
WIS: 10
CHA: 12
Feats:
Combat Reflexes
Combat Expertise
Bodyguard
Improved Initiative(got to go as soon as possible)
Shield Focus
Stand Still
Traits:
Indomitable Faith (+1 Will)
Warrior of Old(+2 Init.)
+1 Holy Adamantine Longsword
+3 (+8)Darkwood Tower Shield (Golden LEgionnaire provides tower shield prof)
+2 (+11)Red Dragonhide Fullplate
+1 Ring of Deflection
+1 Amulet of Natural Armor
AC 32
Banner: +2 vs. Fear for all within sight
Defy Danger: +2 vs Charms and Compulsions
Elven Immunities: +2 vs. Enchantment
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Did anyone ever claim that they did? Paladins work just fine without their mounts, too. And druids work just fine without pets.I actually get quite a lot of people who believe Cavaliers aren't worth the time without their mounts.
I have read many of the same criticisms abut even though I am a new player I think we are missing something.
I too think they are pretty good at melee, they can wear just about any armor and can use just about any weapon. They get cool support features that your party will love you for and to get around the dungeon issue you can get a small sized cavalier.
I rolled up a halfling but not sure how to optimize him. I want him to be fairly support style but capable of riding my wolf (and later Boar in case the wolf gets too big) into combat.
So let me ask this of those that run halfling type cavaliers, how do I optimize?
Currently I bumped my CHA to take advantage of intimidate and diplomacy, I have order of the dragon for the cool support buffs and I have not selected an archetype although I looked at Beat rider. Problem is most upgraded mounts are large so then its back to the dungeon crawl issue, so I am thinking it is not worth doing.
Anyway, I know that I wont be getting a charge alot but in a 5 foot corridor, if I am in the lead position I can get it pretty often and the higher level I go, the more punishment that charge deals out. Then they enemy has to contend with an armored Halfling swinging a sword off the top of a biting wolf.
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kinglouis2005
Those are some great questions and concerns!
Lets start with the mount issue. When a companion reaches a certain level it can grow in size. This is both good and bad, BUT it is also optional. You can choose NOT to take that advancement. If you choose not to, you forever ignore that line of the animal companion and keep going as if the bonuses never came up. This lets you keep your Wolf at Medium.
Second, Halflings actually have a very fun Order of their own, its a racial Order called Order of the Paw that focuses around riding wolves, and dogs around in combat.
Third, Beastmaster is really good for those exotic mounts. One character I find most amusing is a Halfing riding a Medium Velociraptor at level 7 (they start small but grow to medium at 7).
I enjoy having a positive charisma because unlike fighters, diplomacy is inclass for cavaliers, meaning you can be a face. It has let me roleplay with a fighter base class for scenarios like Blackros Matrimony or Hellknights Feast and be effective both in the roleplay aspects and the combat aspects.
Halfing Order of the Dragon is also very good because you have access to the great support type Halfing racial traits and feats.
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Thanks for the reply. I looked at order of the paw but decided against it because then it reduces my chances to directly aid the party.
(My son is playing a human tetori monk as a pro wrestler and Im going to act as his "hype man"/manager)
I want to be able to buff the party some and make use of the neat teamwork feats thats why I went dragon.
I had NO idea the mounts can remain medium!! Do the stats improve or simply remain the same? I am guessing even if they remain the same they still advance in level and HP and all that right?
Thanks again for the feedback!
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Animal Choices
Each animal companion has different starting sizes, speed, attacks, ability scores, and special qualities. All animal attacks are made using the creature's full base attack bonus unless otherwise noted. Animal attacks add the animal's Strength modifier to the damage roll, unless it is its only attack, in which case it adds 1-1/2 its Strength modifier. Some have special abilities, such as scent. See Special Abilities for more information on these abilities. As you gain levels, your animal companion improves as well, usually at 4th or 7th level, in addition to the standard bonuses noted on Table: Animal Companion Base Statistics. Instead of taking the listed benefit at 4th or 7th level, you can instead choose to increase the companion's Dexterity and Constitution by 2.
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Animal Choices
Each animal companion has different starting sizes, speed, attacks, ability scores, and special qualities. All animal attacks are made using the creature's full base attack bonus unless otherwise noted. Animal attacks add the animal's Strength modifier to the damage roll, unless it is its only attack, in which case it adds 1-1/2 its Strength modifier. Some have special abilities, such as scent. See Special Abilities for more information on these abilities. As you gain levels, your animal companion improves as well, usually at 4th or 7th level, in addition to the standard bonuses noted on Table: Animal Companion Base Statistics. Instead of taking the listed benefit at 4th or 7th level, you can instead choose to increase the companion's Dexterity and Constitution by 2.
Ah I did not realize there was any benefit gained, that is a nice surprise, thanks Desolate!
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Animal Choices
Each animal companion has different starting sizes, speed, attacks, ability scores, and special qualities. All animal attacks are made using the creature's full base attack bonus unless otherwise noted. Animal attacks add the animal's Strength modifier to the damage roll, unless it is its only attack, in which case it adds 1-1/2 its Strength modifier. Some have special abilities, such as scent. See Special Abilities for more information on these abilities. As you gain levels, your animal companion improves as well, usually at 4th or 7th level, in addition to the standard bonuses noted on Table: Animal Companion Base Statistics. Instead of taking the listed benefit at 4th or 7th level, you can instead choose to increase the companion's Dexterity and Constitution by 2.
Great find, thanks a bunch for the info!!
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At level 10 a barbarian can just as easily provide a -100 circumstance bonus on the enemies attack roll, on the account of the enemy being reduced to the consistency of jello pudding.
Its not that a cavalier is USELESS without a mount, its that if you don't have a mount what exactly are you playing a cavalier FOR, since their entire schtick is a guy with a horse that's not a paladin.
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Its not that a cavalier is USELESS without a mount, its that if you don't have a mount what exactly are you playing a cavalier FOR, since their entire schtick is a guy with a horse that's not a paladin.
If you have to ask that, you obviously haven't paid attention to anything the OP has said, as he's reiterated a few times exactly what he's playing a cavalier for and a horse isn't his entire schtick...
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The Benevolent Armor Property (+2,000gp) and the Ring of Tactical Precision (10,000gp) are great purchases for increasing your Bodyguard ability :-)
For added fun, your mount can also take Bodyguard :-p
The ring is 11,000 gp, by the way. Solid advice though!
I love the build Zach, it reminds me of an Andoran Steel Falcon we had in my region for a while. The Bodyguard/shield thing is such a cool, flavorful move to do with your allies. I really like how it plays out in games.
Well done!
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Or I did and didn't agree with it, that's possible too you know. The listed benefit doesn't seem to be worth a character class.
If you have to ask that, you obviously haven't paid attention to anything the OP has said
Not sure I follow?
Role playing can be as fun as roll playing even though most games have a bit of both.
I see nothing wrong with being an armored support type character that can grant teamwork feats as well as bonuses of all types to party characters.
But you are entitled to disagree but I dont think its fun if the party has a PC that is constantly one shotting his way through every encounter in a game.
The most fun I have had in PFS is when everyone gets to contribute in some way and just on the surface a Cavalier looks like a great PC for contributing in most situations without dominating every scene.
Now if I was playing solo then I would definitely be looking to maximize damage every time since I would have no one but myself to rely on.
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Or I did and didn't agree with it, that's possible too you know. The listed benefit doesn't seem to be worth a character class.
If you have to ask that, you obviously haven't paid attention to anything the OP has said
Good thing it's not your character then, ain't it? He obviously does, and has stated what his intent is and he's made it to 10th, so it must be at least holding its own. Not everything has to be big smash smash now to be worth a character class...
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At level 10 a barbarian can just as easily provide a -100 circumstance bonus on the enemies attack roll, on the account of the enemy being reduced to the consistency of jello pudding.
Its not that a cavalier is USELESS without a mount, its that if you don't have a mount what exactly are you playing a cavalier FOR, since their entire schtick is a guy with a horse that's not a paladin.
The thing though, is that that isn't even the base schtick of the guy. Yes, historically speaking, Cavaliers were mounted knights. But the entire class focuses around minor and incremental buffs to the team as a whole, focused on the frontline. Order of the Staff provides bonuses to casters, Order of the Dragon provides team bonuses, Tactician Abilities focus on Teamwork Feats, Banner, Challange.
Only 2 orders have a minor focus on mounts, Sword, and Paw.
Further more they only get three class abilities out of 20 that focus on mounted combat.
Mount
Might Charge
Greater Charge
Most Archtypes trade those out.
So even if Paizo's idea was to make this class focused on mounted combat, then that was not successful, as a fighter with mounted feats will outshine them for most levels, and honestly, most cavaliers can forget they have a mount and still give a great deal of bonuses that other classes cannot.
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Halfing Order of the Dragon is also very good because you have access to the great support type Halfing racial traits and feats.
Just FYI: Order of the Dragon "Aid Allies" doesn't stack with the Halfling "Helpful" trait.
I like the Cautious Fighter/Blundering Defense build on a Halfling with a large mount. So, so many squares are adjacent to you to get that +2-3 luck bonus to AC. And if your AC gets too high for the bad guys to notice you, you start using Antagonize to force an opponent to attack you, or go up the Archon Style feat tree so you can take a hit meant for your ally.
The "grant your party Teamwork feats" is an excellent buff. Escape Route is one of my favorites, especially with the aforementioned large mount.
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Escape Route is a great feat for when your mounted, and I have been contemplating trading Shield Wall out for Escape Route with retraining now at higher levels when reach is becoming more common. Granting the ability for the MAgus in the group to charge while spell striking without taking those AoO's is pretty nice.
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So even if Paizo's idea was to make this class focused on mounted combat, then that was not successful, as a fighter with mounted feats will outshine them for most levels, and honestly, most cavaliers can forget they have a mount and still give a great deal of bonuses that other classes cannot.
A fighter without mounted feats is going to quickly be an unmounted fighter the first time his horse gets near a fireball.
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Good thing it's not your character then, ain't it?
If that's what he wants to make for his character that's fine. What he's tired of is people telling new players to avoid the cavalier*: something I'm going to continue to do because the examples I have for unmounted cavaliers aren't very convincing.
* well, medium cavaliers at least.
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A fighter without mounted feats is going to quickly be an unmounted fighter the first time his horse gets near a fireball.
So even if Paizo's idea was to make this class focused on mounted combat, then that was not successful, as a fighter with mounted feats will outshine them for most levels, and honestly, most cavaliers can forget they have a mount and still give a great deal of bonuses that other classes cannot.
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Not always... ;)A fighter without mounted feats is going to quickly be an unmounted fighter the first time his horse gets near a fireball.
So even if Paizo's idea was to make this class focused on mounted combat, then that was not successful, as a fighter with mounted feats will outshine them for most levels, and honestly, most cavaliers can forget they have a mount and still give a great deal of bonuses that other classes cannot.
I need to get a bear animal companion to take that feat so the bear can have a bear animal companion...
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I need to get a bear animal companion to take that feat so the bear can have a bear animal companion...Not always... ;)A fighter without mounted feats is going to quickly be an unmounted fighter the first time his horse gets near a fireball.
So even if Paizo's idea was to make this class focused on mounted combat, then that was not successful, as a fighter with mounted feats will outshine them for most levels, and honestly, most cavaliers can forget they have a mount and still give a great deal of bonuses that other classes cannot.
Hah! Unfortunately the feat is a little more restrictive that I remembered, so no bears.
You gain an animal companion as if you were a druid of your character level –3 from the following list: badger, bird, camel, cat (small), dire rat, dog, horse, pony, snake (viper), or wolf. If you later gain an animal companion through another source (such as the Animal domain, divine bond, hunter’s bond, mount, or nature bond class features), the effective druid level granted by this feat stacks with that granted by other sources.
But it's still pretty cool.
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So, I'm level 5 and have a pet pony, the pony's stat increase has gone into int so it can take any feats. Its feats are Nature Soul, Animal Ally and Boon Companion. It has a pony ally at level 5...
Remember animal companions aren't worth any CR.
and that pony's feats are nature soul, animal ally and boon companion...
Forget the dead bards. We can hide behind the entire herd of dead ponies!
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So, I'm level 5 and have a pet pony, the pony's stat increase has gone into int so it can take any feats. Its feats are Nature Soul, Animal Ally and Boon Companion. It has a pony ally at level 5...
Remember animal companions aren't worth any CR.
Its turtles ponies all the way down!
Definitely RAI here guys :P
Back on track. Are there any other ways to build a cavalier so that it's viable without the mount? If someone wanted to go a different kind of support, or focus on ranged attacks? Things like that. I haven't looked into it so I'm genuinely curious what people might think of.
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Back on track. Are there any other ways to build a cavalier so that it's viable without the mount? If someone wanted to go a different kind of support, or focus on ranged attacks? Things like that. I haven't looked into it so I'm genuinely curious what people might think of.
That's pretty much exactly what the Battle Herald prestige class is. Stacking multiple buffs between Cavalier (Tactician, Banner) Bard (Inspire Courage/Competence/Heroism,Spells) and some new combinations therein.
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I have a multiclass Cavalier (Gendarme) Order of the Cockatrice/ Rogue (Thug, Scout) that focuses primarily on intimidation tactics. She is Human (Focused Study alternate, She is currently level 6 and working out very well. She uses Hellknight plate, a heavy shield and a light flail primarily (a warhammer would probably be slightly more optimal, but flail is the favored weapon of her Hellknight order). The mount is primarily a side feature, she does have a MW lance and uses it with mounted charges given the chance, but she functions just fine without it, and at level 6 with it 3 levels behind she has mostly left it behind, but it will become equal to her level at 7 with the Horsemaster feat.
Lady Jasmine Henderthane
Level 1: Gendarme Cavalier Order of the Cockatrice 1
Bonus Human Feat: Skill Focus: Intimidate
Bonus Gendarme Cavalier Feat: Power Attack
Level 1 Feat: Bludgeoner
Level 2: Cavalier 2
Bonus Order Feat: Dazzling Display
Level 3: Cavalier 3
Level 3 Feat: Enforcer
Level 4: Thug Scout Rogue 1
Level 5: Rogue 2
Rogue Talent: Weapon Training: Weapon Focus: Flail
Level 5 Feat: Sap Adept
Level 6: Rogue 3
Level 7: Cavalier 4
Bonus Ioun Stone Feat: Horsemaster (has GM credit already from [redacted])
Bonus Cavalier (Master Trainer): Skill Focus: Handle Animal
Level 7 feat: Shatter Defenses
Level 8: Rogue 4
Rogue Talent: Strong Impression: Intimidating Prowess
Bonus Human: Skill Focus (Diplomacy)
Level 9: Rogue 5
Level 9 feat: Sap Master
Level 10: Hellknight Order of the Chain 1
Level 11: Hellknight 2
Level 11 feat: Toughness
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Don't forget the Standard Bearer archetype who doesn't even get a mount until level 4 or so. Add the Flagbearer feat for nice stuff.
And there's also always going into Battle Herald prestige class. Bards are cool, but how about an Evangelist Cleric/Cavalier combo for that one?
Finally, just because you can't charge on your mount all the time doesn't mean you can't USE your mount. The Narrow Frame feat from Animal Archives eliminates your mount's squeezing penalties, and you get a higher ground attack bonus against enemies smaller than your mount. It's like free weapon focus.
I was going to be a battle herald, but I felt too strongly attached to my clerical abilities. I was going to go Cav. 1/Evangalist Cleric 4/Battle Herald, but I felt like more levels in cleric had more to offer. I do use Flagbearer with this character Cav 1/ Evang. 11. Though if I rebuilt this character it would probably be just single class evangelist cleric with a few different feat choices (though I'd keep Flagbearer). I also do have Narrow Frame on Jasmine's horse, another character of mine. I guess I just like the Cavalier class chassis a bit.