The Dragon's Demand - Why The Padding?

[zylphryx]

Quite the contrary. Every NPC has the potential to be an opponent. By opting to not kill particular NPCs, the players have given themselves an additional resource to draw from. I consider it a nice change from the "go in and kill everything" type of module. If you have a table of players who follow this play style, however, then it is very likely that the NPCs are a moot point as they will have become just another source of XP via combat. Even if they have the NPCs in tow, the PCs still accomplish their goal as long as they are still standing at the end of the fight ... unless the PCs are all dropped and wake to find the NPCs have finished the job for them (which would be a crappy way to end the module).

Also, keep in mind that the Tactics section, especially in Campaign mode, is really more of a guideline than anything else ... not being held to the strict nature of PFS, one does have the freedom to modify as one sees fit.

Spoiler:

So if the kobold guards are ordered to attack the NPC, as soon as the PCs hit one of them with any kind of attack, you can always have the guard view the PCs as a threat to accomplishing their orders and have them split their attention) ... and that NPC would prefer to see the PCs do the work anyway, so it would not join in the fight save to protect itself. The second NPC does not even need to join the PCs at the GMs discretion; it may just give the PCs a reward (which solves the issue for this NPC). The last NPC is more of a support role NPC, not one who would necessarily fall into the "cannon fodder" category, and convincing that one of the PCs' goal is not the easiest thing in the world, depending on the party make up.

The magic loot, yeah, that could be a little bit unbalancing if one were to use this module as an intro to a campaign, but it could be mitigated by reducing the payout over the next level or two to achieve WBL. For playing the module as a single shot, though, I can't see it as being an issue; the PCs were created for the module run not for an ongoing campaign. If the player wants to then use the PC in a different campaign, then the GM has the right to say "No" or "Yes, with the following caveats".

[Skeld]

James Jacobs wrote:

That said... it's not a reward for doing nothing. A DC 8 Climb check might soudn low... but at 1st level, it's not going to be an auto success. Hell, when you factor in no class ranks + armor check penalties, it's hardly an auto roll for higher level parties. I've seen plenty of paladins and fighters at 8th level or above have negative scores in their Climb skills.

In "There Is No Honor" (the opening chapter of the 3.5e Savage Tide AP from Dungeon mag for those not familiar), I had to throw a PC a bone when she failed on 3 consecutive rounds to climb the DC5 knotted rope from a rowboat onto a larger ship. Level 1, heavy armor, not terribly strong... it makes that DC5 a lot tougher than you'd think.

-Skeld

[Skeld]

James Jacobs wrote:

Also: I'd love to hear from other folks as well. What do people think of having...

Honestly, I had noticed the up-tick in story awards when I read the first part concerning the kobold lair, but I didn't pay them much attention. My group runs without XP and I pay much more attention to the advancement track block and thinking about how I might adjust it for more than 4 players (6, usually).

Granted, I've only read the first part so far, but I like what I see. I'll run this next month while we're taking an intermission from RothRL to give my players a chance to freshen up and play something a little different. We'll play it as a one-shot with throw-away characters. All we're looking for is something interesting and "starts at level 1 and fights a dragon at the end" fits the bill, especially so if it's not a wyrmling but a serious threat.

-Skeld

[James Jacobs]

Skeld wrote:

James Jacobs wrote:

That said... it's not a reward for doing nothing. A DC 8 Climb check might soudn low... but at 1st level, it's not going to be an auto success. Hell, when you factor in no class ranks + armor check penalties, it's hardly an auto roll for higher level parties. I've seen plenty of paladins and fighters at 8th level or above have negative scores in their Climb skills.

In "There Is No Honor" (the opening chapter of the 3.5e Savage Tide AP from Dungeon mag for those not familiar), I had to throw a PC a bone when she failed on 3 consecutive rounds to climb the DC5 knotted rope from a rowboat onto a larger ship. Level 1, heavy armor, not terribly strong... it makes that DC5 a lot tougher than you'd think.

-Skeld

Indeed. I had a 5-foot high platform in a game I was running that pretty much shut down the group's paladin, who lacked both any ranks in Acrobatics and Climb and was wearing full plate armor. He was about 9th level at the time, but still had a penalty on both checks.

[PhelanArcetus]

James Jacobs wrote:

Skeld wrote:

James Jacobs wrote:

That said... it's not a reward for doing nothing. A DC 8 Climb check might soudn low... but at 1st level, it's not going to be an auto success. Hell, when you factor in no class ranks + armor check penalties, it's hardly an auto roll for higher level parties. I've seen plenty of paladins and fighters at 8th level or above have negative scores in their Climb skills.

In "There Is No Honor" (the opening chapter of the 3.5e Savage Tide AP from Dungeon mag for those not familiar), I had to throw a PC a bone when she failed on 3 consecutive rounds to climb the DC5 knotted rope from a rowboat onto a larger ship. Level 1, heavy armor, not terribly strong... it makes that DC5 a lot tougher than you'd think.

-Skeld

Indeed. I had a 5-foot high platform in a game I was running that pretty much shut down the group's paladin, who lacked both any ranks in Acrobatics and Climb and was wearing full plate armor. He was about 9th level at the time, but still had a penalty on both checks.

I have a current level 19 fighter type in 3.5 who can't even tread water in armor. Completely incapable of making a DC 10 Swim check. Fortunately he has a cloak of the mountebank, winged boots and also a necklace of adaptation around, so he has ways to escape. I think he has a penalty on every single skill that has an armor check penalty. So even "easy" checks can be difficult for characters not invested in them.

[Skeld]

PhelanArcetus wrote:

James Jacobs wrote:

Skeld wrote:

James Jacobs wrote:

That said... it's not a reward for doing nothing. A DC 8 Climb check might soudn low... but at 1st level, it's not going to be an auto success. Hell, when you factor in no class ranks + armor check penalties, it's hardly an auto roll for higher level parties. I've seen plenty of paladins and fighters at 8th level or above have negative scores in their Climb skills.

In "There Is No Honor" (the opening chapter of the 3.5e Savage Tide AP from Dungeon mag for those not familiar), I had to throw a PC a bone when she failed on 3 consecutive rounds to climb the DC5 knotted rope from a rowboat onto a larger ship. Level 1, heavy armor, not terribly strong... it makes that DC5 a lot tougher than you'd think.

-Skeld

Indeed. I had a 5-foot high platform in a game I was running that pretty much shut down the group's paladin, who lacked both any ranks in Acrobatics and Climb and was wearing full plate armor. He was about 9th level at the time, but still had a penalty on both checks.

I have a current level 19 fighter type in 3.5 who can't even tread water in armor. Completely incapable of making a DC 10 Swim check. Fortunately he has a cloak of the mountebank, winged boots and also a necklace of adaptation around, so he has ways to escape. I think he has a penalty on every single skill that has an armor check penalty. So even "easy" checks can be difficult for characters not invested in them.

Just as a data point for validation, I ran the opening session of The Dragon's Demand for my group last night. My party's Strength-dumped, hide-armor-wearing Aasimar Druid (built using the heroic array) failed the DC8 Climb check 3 times. His Climb mod is something like -6 and he had to take off his armor and shield in order to climb to the top of the rubble pile. All told, 3 failed Climb checks resulted in him taking 5 points of damage.

The rest of the session, we refereed to his character as "Rubblebane." Bless his heart.

-Skeld

[Ernest Mueller]

That sounds like loads of fun. :-P

[Skeld]

Ernest Mueller wrote:

That sounds like loads of fun. :-P

It was rather comical.

-Skeld

[Monele]

Skeld wrote:

The rest of the session, we refereed to his character as "Rubblebane." Bless his heart.

Suddenly, giving out XP for "just" climbing rubble doesn't seem so silly anymore :)

[The black raven]

My players had the agile characters go first and use a cord to help the less agile ones climb. We do not use XP, but that kind of immersion mixed with smart thinking deserves the reward IMO.

[Joshua Goudreau]

I ran the first session of this last Thursday and the rubble climb was easy for everyone except the Alchemist, who fell and had rocks landing on him, knocking him into negative numbers. I'd say it was worth the 400XP they received.

[DenverGamer]

Thank you James for your hard work. Wish there were another million people buying Paizo's products. Such an awesome diversion from the real world for me and many more. Your continued postings in this thread is awesome (and it has brought some around to agreeing that climbing is ABSOLUTELY worth a reward). Great game. Great product!

[Krome]

James Jacobs wrote:

Also: I'd love to hear from other folks as well. What do people think of having...

In the days of old, characters earned XP by doing two things: Killing monsters and hoarding gold. Every monster was worth a set number of XP and each gold piece was worth one XP.

I thought it was a great idea to get rid of the link between gold and XP. The gold was reward enough in its own right. But that left killing monsters as the only way to level a character.

But killing monsters leads to some pretty stupid game results. For example I once had my party about to leave town on a quest, and the town's general store owner came running out to join them so he could level up. lol

Personally, I believe XP should ONLY be awarded for completing quests. This provides incentive for players to be more creative in how they deal with obstacles. Killing is not the only way to deal with monsters then.

I know there will be a lot of people who hate this idea, but then I am sure there were a lot of people who hated that gold no longer awarded XP. I think as the industry matures that quest rewards will be the way to get XP in the future.

[Skeld]

Krome wrote:

James Jacobs wrote:

Also: I'd love to hear from other folks as well. What do people think of having...

In the days of old, characters earned XP by doing two things: Killing monsters and hoarding gold. Every monster was worth a set number of XP and each gold piece was worth one XP.

I thought it was a great idea to get rid of the link between gold and XP. The gold was reward enough in its own right. But that left killing monsters as the only way to level a character.

But killing monsters leads to some pretty stupid game results. For example I once had my party about to leave town on a quest, and the town's general store owner came running out to join them so he could level up. lol

Personally, I believe XP should ONLY be awarded for completing quests. This provides incentive for players to be more creative in how they deal with obstacles. Killing is not the only way to deal with monsters then.

I know there will be a lot of people who hate this idea, but then I am sure there were a lot of people who hated that gold no longer awarded XP. I think as the industry matures that quest rewards will be the way to get XP in the future.

This is one of the reason I stopped using XP several years (and 3 campaigns) ago.

-Skeld

[Aaron Bitman]

Heh. Back in the day, influenced by other RPGs, I believed that XP ought to be awarded for participation, role playing, and helping to achieve the adventure's objective. I would award different characters by different amounts, based on how well they did those things.

I later questioned that philosophy. Maybe one character got better opportunities to participate, role play, or help to achieve the objective than another character.

Now I just use the XP rules as written, and divide XP evenly. It might lead to stupid game results, but at least it's quantifiable.

[Sub-Creator]

Krome wrote:

James Jacobs wrote:

Personally, I believe XP should ONLY be awarded for completing quests. This provides incentive for players to be more creative in how they deal with obstacles. Killing is not the only way to deal with monsters then.

And killing the monsters should not be the only way to get XP when dealing with monsters. The objective is to defeat/overcome the encounter. You don't have to kill the monster/NPC in order to gain the XP award. Getting them to flee or subduing them are two other viable options amongst many others.

My KM crew goes out of their way to keep the vast majority of those they face alive. That doesn't mean they don't get XP for defeating the encounter. Of course they do! I couldn't even fathom the death of the enemy being the only way to achieve an XP award. That idea is absolutely foreign to me.

[Talos the Talon!]

I have to agree that the whole story award thing was a bit much. The first dungeon has like 5600 xp for combat and traps and such, and like 2400 in story awards. That's like more than 40%. If that number was closer to 15-20%, then I can dig it.

I bought this module with the idea that I can just plug and play, and have a whole campaign with minimal effort. I would really like to see a few extra encounters, because the ones presented are just what I like - creative, exciting and original, and have an old school feel.

As an example, in that witch tower, 2-3 more encounters would have done it. If anyone has like a few encounter ideas to share, I would love to read them.

Also the hand out of magic items that is at the tomb is just way to much for me. I want to continue the adventure after this module, but I am scratching my head on what to trim down out of the power items in that tomb, without cutting down the party's haul and chances against the dragon.

[Helaman]

Add an additional encounter for the surrounding countryside before the Auction? Robbers, drawn by news of the auction and anticipating a rich haul set up a camp out of town. One potential buyer makes it to town, stripped of their wealth and the Mayor is determined that this sort of thing stops now.

Que up a bandit encounter - make them a tough crew but with mundane weapons and armour so that wealth isnt thrown out that badly.

They've buried the loot taken so far. If the players question them then they can get 1000gp in coin. If they hack and slash through them then its unlikely they'll ever find it.

[Joshua Goudreau]

According to the author (I think I read it from him) there was an encounter at the quarry that got cut for space. Alternatively there is plenty of option for encounters in the Dragonfen while the party is traveling to and from the crypt and the monastery.

I ran about half the module with handing out XP but then I opted to drop it and just let the party level when appropriate. The module is divided into pretty logical places to auto level with each dungeon being worth about one level. The padding with all the quests became more bookkeeping that I wanted to deal with after a while. However, because of the layout of the module, it doesn't feel rushed.

[Nimyue]

As a player, I loved the story awards and getting to level a character from 1-7. There are a ton of modules already that go through 1-2 levels. This was a nice change of pace. When you take a character through that many levels, you become attached to them and the role playing is better.

I had a blast playing this module.

If you were going to use it to begin a campaign, I can see making it more difficult and adding more story hooks; but if you are just playing it as is, it's great fun.

[Nimyue]

James Jacobs wrote:

Skeld wrote:

James Jacobs wrote:

That said... it's not a reward for doing nothing. A DC 8 Climb check might soudn low... but at 1st level, it's not going to be an auto success. Hell, when you factor in no class ranks + armor check penalties, it's hardly an auto roll for higher level parties. I've seen plenty of paladins and fighters at 8th level or above have negative scores in their Climb skills.

In "There Is No Honor" (the opening chapter of the 3.5e Savage Tide AP from Dungeon mag for those not familiar), I had to throw a PC a bone when she failed on 3 consecutive rounds to climb the DC5 knotted rope from a rowboat onto a larger ship. Level 1, heavy armor, not terribly strong... it makes that DC5 a lot tougher than you'd think.

-Skeld

Indeed. I had a 5-foot high platform in a game I was running that pretty much shut down the group's paladin, who lacked both any ranks in Acrobatics and Climb and was wearing full plate armor. He was about 9th level at the time, but still had a penalty on both checks.

Yeah I have to tell you, those seemingly low checks... were very interesting for our party.

Spoiler:

My character fell off the ledge into the acid no less than 6 times... the DC was 10 (we didn't use a buy-in we used stat arrays.)

[ShallowHammer]

I get the concern with the way story xp awards are handled. In my group I plan to turn some of the story awards into longer side quests. I don't have the module with me to quote from, but I remember story awards for things like "get one of the factions to like you" or something like that. I figure I can turn that into something fun to take up an hour or so and add to the story.

But yeah, if you don't want to spend your time making modifications, I can see the frustration.

[LazarX]

James Jacobs wrote:

Also: I'd love to hear from other folks as well. What do people think of having...

I can't think of any better way to help get rid of the idea that the default role of an adventurer is "MurderHobo" than story rewards like the ones found here.

Keep them coming.

[Sunderstone]

I'm a fan of story awards too. Love the term "murderhobo" :)

[karpeth]

There is just One thing I don't get.

Is the XP for the quests all extra, or just a summary of relevant story awards?