Just looking at damage progression for PAthfinder vs 13th age. Only looked at a few martial characters so far.
13th age is easier to do due to lesser amount of options. Roughly, Using Rage a barbarian will take 3 rounds to kill an equivalent monster at L1 an d L5, and 4 rounds at Level 4.
A Rogue using sneak attack will take 4 rounds at L1, L5 and L 10. As will a Ranger with an animal companion.
Because characters damage accelerates with level, fights shouldn't take any longer as you level up.
For Pathfinder i've only looked at the barbarian so far.
Versus a standard L1 monster, a L1 Str 18 Barbarian using Large great axe, power attack and raging averages 8.25 damage per round (average roll x % chance to hit AC) which would 2 rounds to kill. So quicker than 13th age without using minions.
However, once i start going up levels this drops off. Partly because AC goes up quicker than BAB, but mostly because HP goes up every level and damage does not.
At L10, using Vital strike, PA, Rage, i can average 18 per round (average damage of 40 x 45% hit) or do 2 attacks but then i drop to 15 per round due to lesser chance of 2nd attack. This would take 14 rounds to kill an average L10 monster with 130 Hp. See HP is x 10, but damage is only doubled.
Should have done L11 because then VS does x3 damage.
At L20, again using VS, PA, Rage i do 33.75 per round (70 x 45%)! but now the HP is upto 370 so i take 11 rounds. From L1 the damage is 30 times bigger, but my damage output is only about 4 times bigger.
Now i haven't used any magic items (because i didn't for my 13th age stuff either) but there is still a problem here.
Sure i could throw in some casters but they have single use spells.
What is the solution? I do not see any conclusion other than combats take longer as you level up because enemy HP is going up massively and your damage is not. You then get extra attacks, but the BAB is so low they can't hit, and feats like VS only give you increases of x2/x3/x4 when at same levels enemy hitpoint is x10/x20/x30.
Is this a standard flaw of Pathfinder or have i got something wrong? I haven't played to these high levels, i'm just doing the numbers. But having played a few sessions of 13th age and being able to throw 100hp monsters at L2 (L4 in PF) characters and them killing it in 3 turns, i'd like similarly quick fights in pathfinder...well maybe not that quick!
"AC goes up faster than BAB"
"Vital Strike"
"greataxe"
OK, learn a thing or two about optimization and come back with new math. :)
hence my questions...what should it have? Also is there only one way to have each class? That would be a bit naff. Optimisation? I was under the impression that PF was a ROLE playing game not a competitive wargame.
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To explain the above:
Attack bonus as a whole, goes up a whole lot faster than monster AC. BAB is only one component of this. Just for example, a 10th level Barbarian who started with Str 18 should, at a minimum, be using a +3 weapon (possibly due to Furious), have Str 28 with items and rage, and have that +10 BAB. That gives him +19 to hit with PA. He hits his enemies on a 5+ with his first attack, and a 10+ on his second. Haste is a pretty good assumption by this level as well, and makes that three attacks, requiring only 4, 4, and 9 to hit.
Also, never, ever, base calculations on Vital Strike. It's a sub-par Feat, not the norm. Power Attack, however, is a solid assumption.
Greataxes aren't bad but are hardly the optimal weapon of choice either. You aren't figuring in the chances of a critical hit, which, if using, say, a Falchion or Nodachi with Improved Critical, occurs on 15+, and doubles damage when it occurs., which, mechanically, is a lot better than a lot of the other options.
EDIT:
hence my questions...what should it have? Also is there only one way to have each class? That would be a bit naff.
There are several good ways to build each class...there are also ways that are, basically, mechanically bad. Vital Strike's on that second list.
Optimisation? I was under the impression that PF was a ROLE playing game not a competitive wargame.
Uh...you're the one who asked about damage progression, man. That necessitates, by it's nature, a certain amount of optimization/system mastery. You need to know something about how the game works to predict that accurately. Doesn't have to be as optimized as possible (you could figure your Barbarian with a Greatsword instead of a Falchion, for example), but you need to know which choices you're making are good and which are bad.
Also, nothing about mechanical optimization hurts one's ability to roleplay.
Okay, so that answers my questiin about having something wrong.
But even including better items i dont see that damage keeps up with hitpoints.
hence my questions...what should it have? Also is there only one way to have each class? That would be a bit naff. Optimisation? I was under the impression that PF was a ROLE playing game not a competitive wargame."AC goes up faster than BAB"
"Vital Strike"
"greataxe"
OK, learn a thing or two about optimization and come back with new math. :)
I was very close to not answering you after this post but i see that might have been offended by Gorbacz's post.
And yes Gorbacz is correct, drop the vital strike thing, it's a trap feat line and use this for calculating DPR:
The formula is h(d+s)+tchd.
h = Chance to hit, expressed as a percentage
d = Damage per hit. Average damage is assumed.
s = Precision damage per hit (or other damage that isn't multiplied on a crit). Average damage is again assumed.
t = Chance to roll a critical threat, expressed as a percentage.
c = Critical hit bonus damage. x2 = 1, x3 = 2, x4 = 3.
Thanks...
In addition in PF medium characters can't weild large two handed weapons, so normal greataxe and not a large one, also in PF the WBL is assumed in monster design. Another thing in mid+ levels in PF you do your damage vs iterative attacks and not via a single attack.
Found the DPR olympics thread. makes for interesting reading.
Shame most builds end up using similar weapons, feats and items... but at least it does show PF characters CAN keep up with monster HD.
Which was all i wanted to know because i couldn't work out how...
Found the DPR olympics thread. makes for interesting reading.
Shame most builds end up using similar weapons, feats and items... but at least it does show PF characters CAN keep up with monster HD.Which was all i wanted to know because i couldn't work out how...
Yes they do end up with similar weapons, feats etc. because they use the best of the best because the purpose of the DPR olympics was to determine the best of the best builds.
Do you know understand how and why damage scales in PF?