DEX Based Lore Warden Build - Help w / Feat Progression

[thulsa_doom]

Greetings! I've had experience building and playing STR-based fighters in both D&D 3.5 and Pathfinder. I decided I wanted to create a DEX-based finesse fighter for PFS play after checking out the Lore Warden Archetype in the PFS Field Guide. So far, I've built a character concept for the role-playing aspect of the character: my Lore Warden is a cartographer that was sent by the Society to chronicle the migration routes of Keleshite nomads, and thus learned how to wield a scimitar like a dervish. She converted to the Dawnflower Cult, and immersed herself in Qadiran culture. So I at least feel I have a justification for building a fighter with the Dervish Dance feat that fits my "Pathfinder" knowledge-seeker concept.

The problem is that I'm not quite sure where to take the build feat-wise after Level 4. I have scoured these forums and taken notes on what others have done with their Lore Warden builds. It seems as though most have taken advantage of the archetype's natural knack for combat maneuverability -- concentrating on tripping, disarming, and dirty tricks. I'm not sure if this is the way to go, as I am more interested in the concept of trying an "intelligent fighter" as well as possibly capitalizing on the crit range of the Scimitar. I'd like to deal as much damage as possible without using power attack -- concentrating on raising DEX and INT while keeping semi-decent scores in CON and WIS (for Perception and Will Saves).

So far, my ability scores (20 pt. buy) are...
STR - 10
DEX - 17 (will raise to 18 at Lvl 4)
CON - 14
INT - 13 (will raise to 14 at Lvl 8)
WIS - 14
CHA - 10

I'd rather not dump any stats below 10. My character is Grand Lodge, so she takes the Observant trait (Perception becomes class skill). Also, World Traveler to get Diplomacy as class skill. All of this fits with the character's back story.

This is what I was thinging of for feat progression up to Lvl 5 perhaps...

Lvl 1: Weapon Finesse, Dodge, Iron Will
Lvl 2: Combat Expertise (LW Feat), Dervish Dance
Lvl 3: Weapon Focus: Scimitar
Lvl 4: Weapon Specialization: Scimitar
Lvl 5: Mobility

After this, I'm not sure where I want to go with the build. Not sure if the whole tripping/disarming thing will work for me, as I don't want to focus on just pulling off situational combat maneuvers. But if that's the best way to make this build viable, then I'm open to trying it out. Some people berate the Vital Strike chain, but it doesn't seem so bad to increase damage (x2,x3) on a single attack. I could be wrong. Lastly, feats such as Improved Critical and anything that widens my crit threat range and takes advantage of such range with the scimitar seems ideal. However, I know there are certain creatures at higher levels that are crit-resistant.

I've also noticed a lot of LW builds incorporate IUS to get Crane Style (and perhaps Crane Wing). I would be open to this but am not interested in level-dipping in Monk.

I guess I'll put it out there for anyone who has built a Lore Warden. What's the best feat progression based on the information I've provided?

I know my character's not going to be a damage powerhouse, but I'd like to at least contribute to melee while utilizing the increased skill set granted by the archetype. Not getting hacked to pieces wearing light armor is also a high priority (hence my interest in Dodge and Mobility).

I'm not tied down to everything I've posted. I do, however, want to take the Dervish Dance/Scimitar chain (no whips, polearms, or anything like that) and I don't want to multiclass this character.

In advance, I appreciate any advice you all can provide to help me flesh out this character build.

[Psion-Psycho]

Go check out the Kirin Style feat chain. It seems like it would complement ur character concept and make use of the extra skill points u get from Lore Warden.

[Gwen Smith]

I second Kirin Style--very Lore Warden appropriate.

The other option to boost your AC is Snapping Turtle Style. Since it also requires one hand free, it compliments the Dervish Dancer nicely.

If you want to do more damage, consider Piranha Strike (the dexterity-based version of Power Attack). As you move up the fighter chain, you can get Greater Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon Specialization, too.

Another possibility is Butterfly's Sting: when you score a critical hit, you can let another character do the damage. Very nice if you have a Keen weapon or Improved Critical.

Are you considering prestige classes at all? Dervish Dancer/Lore Warden is a great lead in for the Duelist prestige class.

Since you have Combat Expertise and a high Int, you can look at the maneuver list: Agile Maneuvers combined with and Improved Disarm can be kind of fun. (Nothing like the look on the bad guy's face when you disarm that potion he was counting on!) Combat Reflexes, Step Up, Disruptive: these are all good ways to contribute tactically to the party without doing damage.

[Psion-Psycho]

Gwen Smith wrote:

I second Kirin Style--very Lore Warden appropriate.

The other option to boost your AC is Snapping Turtle Style. Since it also requires one hand free, it compliments the Dervish Dancer nicely.

If you want to do more damage, consider Piranha Strike (the dexterity-based version of Power Attack). As you move up the fighter chain, you can get Greater Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon Specialization, too.

Another possibility is Butterfly's Sting: when you score a critical hit, you can let another character do the damage. Very nice if you have a Keen weapon or Improved Critical.

Are you considering prestige classes at all? Dervish Dancer/Lore Warden is a great lead in for the Duelist prestige class.

Since you have Combat Expertise and a high Int, you can look at the maneuver list: Agile Maneuvers combined with and Improved Disarm can be kind of fun. (Nothing like the look on the bad guy's face when you disarm that potion he was counting on!) Combat Reflexes, Step Up, Disruptive: these are all good ways to contribute tactically to the party without doing damage.

Love was thinking the same thing as u when i posted. Also i was considering mentioning Piranha strike but it does not work because the Scimitar is not a light weapon sadly.

[Blueluck]

I wouldn't take any monk levels, but I'd still strongly consider Crane Style.

Here's a example of a level 8 human Lore Warden build I like:

Human Lore Warden 8
Female Human Fighter (Lore Warden) 8
NG Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +8; Senses Perception +17
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 27, touch 18, flat-footed 20 (+8 armor, +5 Dex, +1 natural, +1 deflection, +2 dodge)
hp 76 (8d10+24)
Fort +10, Ref +10, Will +5 (+2 vs. fear)
Defensive Abilities bravery +2
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee +2 Scimitar +17/+12 (1d6+11/15-20/x2) and
. . Unarmed strike +13/+8 (1d3/x2)
Ranged Darkwood Composite longbow (Str +0) +14/+9 (1d8/x3)
Special Attacks weapon training abilities (heavy blades +1)
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 10, Dex 22, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 8
Base Atk +8; CMB +11; CMD 30
Feats Combat Expertise +/-3, Crane Riposte, Crane Style, Crane Wing, Dervish Dance, Dodge, Improved Critical (Scimitar), Improved Unarmed Strike, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (Scimitar), Weapon Specialization (Scimitar)
Traits Reactionary, Observant
Skills Acrobatics +5, Climb -1, Escape Artist +5, Fly +5, Knowledge (arcana) +13, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +13, Knowledge (local) +11, Knowledge (nature) +13, Knowledge (planes) +13, Knowledge (religion) +13, Perception +17, Perform (dance) +1, Ride +5, Stealth +5, Swim -1
Languages Celestial, Common, Draconic
SQ know thy enemy (standard action)
Combat Gear Quick runner's shirt (1/day); Other Gear +2 Mithral Breastplate, +2 Scimitar, Darkwood Composite longbow (Str +0), Amulet of natural armor +1, Belt of incredible dexterity +2, Cloak of resistance +2, Eyes of the eagle, Ring of protection +1, 555 GP
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Bravery +2 (Ex) +2 to Will save vs. Fear
Combat Expertise +/-3 Bonus to AC in exchange for an equal penalty to attack.
Crane Riposte When you deflect an attack, you may make an attack of opportunity
Crane Style Penalty when fighting defensively reduced to -2 and dodge bonus increases by 1.
Crane Wing May deflect one attack per round while fighting defensively or using total defense
Dervish Dance Use Dex modifier instead of Str modifier with scimitar
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Know Thy Enemy (Standard Action) (Ex) Knowledge check vs 1 foe to gain +2 to att & weapon dam for encounter.
Quick runner's shirt (1/day) As swift action, take an extra move action to move on your turn.
Weapon Training (Blades, Heavy) +1 (Ex) +1 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Heavy Blades

[Turgan]

First: I read your post; you stated you don't want to take Power Attack and you know you are not going to be a Powerhouse. Indeed, I fear with this build you're going to be more of a depleted shack.

I don't think what you have in mind is going to work: no power attack, no THF or even TWF - in the higher levels combat maneuvers become less viable and you just don't do enough damage to be a threat.

let's take a look at your damage at level 5: d6+4dex+2wsp+1magic weapon (assumed) +1 weapon training. 1d6+8.
That looks good so far, but it will not go up much from here.

At level 12(last level in PFS?), the height of you power, your damage will increase by about 10 points (d6 +7dex +4 greater wsp +3magic weapon +2 weapon training +2gloves of duelling = d6+18) doing 21.5 damage on regular hit.

Maybe I am wrong, but I think that's not enough for a fighter of that level, especially when DR comes into play.

What I like: you at least are going to have two good saves (Ref and Fort)

So my suggestion is to take strength 13 and Power Attack

Edit: Sorry, I forgot to take into account "Know thy enemy" another +2 to damage.

[soupturtle]

I will mirror the suggestion to get power attack. You really need to do some more damage, especially since attacking with your weapon seems to be the main thing you want to be good at (rather than combat maneuvers). Just drop your wisdom to 12 and get that 13 in strength. Piranha strike doesn't work with a scimitar, sadly.

I'd also reconsider your thoughts on combat maneuvers. It is what lore wardens are really good at, after all. I personally like dirty trick a lot, and trip is pretty good in pathfinder society, as many enemies are humanoid, and you don't go up to the really high levels where CMDs get stupidly high.

If you decide you want to try some combat maneuvers, and you like the idea of picking up kirin style, I would suggest considering a single level dip in maneuver master monk. you can pick up the improved feat for one combat maneuver, and you get to add one free combat maneuver (with a -2 penalty) to every single full attack you make. So that means you don't have to choose between maneuvers and damage anymore. You also automatically get improved unarmed strike, which is a prerequisite for kirin style.

[Hayato Ken]

1. Iron will is good, but you won´t need it so early though.
What is more of a problem with Lore Wardens is the lack of armor proficiency and AC. So either get that or more hit points. My Lore Warden has Tribal Scars, Toughness and +2 Con for 50hp at level 4.

2. Dervish Dancing is nice and you will do sufficient damage with it. However i think the strenght of Lore Wardens is there control abilities which you should use and in my opinion control goes better with reach. So what is a good finesse reach weapon? The whip. You also have enough feats to roll with it and with an agile whip you will still do enough damage.

3. Additional traits feat could also be interesting for you to get more class skills, a trait bonus on will save or armor expert/defender of the society.

4. Your build suggestions...
Crane wing and fellows will definately pay out for you, because you really lack AC and you want to use a one hand weapon. I would dip in Monk master of many styles for that, perhaps even 2 levels. If you don´t want to do that, it´s a late entry and you need a lot of feats you´re not really going to use. Then better get more armor proficiency and a mithril heavy armor (hellknight plate?).

5. breath of experience
If you play an elf/half-elf/gnome you can take that feat and get a bonus on all knowledge skills as well as do all of them untrained.

6. Remember, there are more maneuvers than trip and disarm, like dirty trick, drag, reposition etc. Use those according to situation. Dirty trick blind can be a real killer. You should be able to use your weapon for most.

Hope this helps you a bit.

[Deadmanwalking]

If you want to do Combat Maneuvers situationally, Lunge is an excellent Feat for avoiding AoO.

I'm also a big fan of Crane Wing for builds lie this, and Maneuver Master Monk's a good way to get it, as noted.

[Thalin]

1st, 1 level dip in Manuever Master Monk gets you a LOT. As in, +2 to all saves, a "free" manuever that doesn't actually lower your attack bonuses.

Second, are you opposed to tiefling? Tiefling gives you fire resistance 5, +2 Dex and Int, and +1 Natural Armor if built right.

I'd go:

Tiefling Lore Warden 4 / Manuever Master 1

Str: 10
Int: 15 (raise to 16 level 8)
Wis: 10
Dex: 19 (raise to 20 by level 4)
Con: 12
Chr: 10 (went ahead and bought up since you want no negs)

Feats:
1) Weapon Finessee, Dodge
2) Dervish Dance, Combat Expertise
3) (Monk 1) Improved Trip
4) Crane Style
5) Crane Wing

This makes you more survivable and better @ what you want to do; and you get a free trip attack each round for no reason.

Bashing armor and an amulet of mighty fist (agility) would technically be better than dervish dance, but I understand that also doesn't meet the character flavor.

[Wasum]

I second maneuver master monk

[Jodokai]

If you do decide to go Crane Style, you don't need the whole chain. Your counter attack when you block has to be an unarmed attack. Unless you have an Agile AoMF your counter attack will do 1d3 damage. Not sure that's worth a feat.

If you change your mind about multiclassing, you may want to look into Duelist, or Monk of Many Styles.

Also with Tiefling you could get Fire, Cold, Acid resist 5, and +2 Natural Armor bonus with a Feat (Armor of the Pit). Not to mention that Tail is pretty handy and +10 feet of charging.

[Blueluck]

Jodokai wrote:

If you do decide to go Crane Style, you don't need the whole chain. Your counter attack when you block has to be an unarmed attack.

Why would you say that? Crane Riposte doesn't say anything about the attack being unarmed.

[Warrick Blackstone]

Blueluck wrote:

I wouldn't take any monk levels, but I'd still strongly consider Crane Style.

** spoiler omitted **...

would you only have Bravery 1 at level 8 since you repalce the original Bravery 1 with combat expertise ?

[Blueluck]

Warrick Blackstone wrote:

Blueluck wrote:

I wouldn't take any monk levels, but I'd still strongly consider Crane Style.

** spoiler omitted **...

would you only have Bravery 1 at level 8 since you repalce the original Bravery 1 with combat expertise ?

Yes, you would always have one less point of bravery than other fighters.

[Gwen Smith]

Psion-Psycho wrote:

Gwen Smith wrote:

If you want to do more damage, consider Piranha Strike (the dexterity-based version of Power Attack). As you move up the fighter chain, you can get Greater Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon Specialization, too.

Love was thinking the same thing as u when i posted. Also i was considering mentioning Piranha strike but it does not work because the Scimitar is not a light weapon sadly.

Face palm. I do know that. I've even complained about it, a lot. Why that piece of information flew out of my head at this moment, I have no idea.

[Psion-Psycho]

Gwen Smith wrote:

Psion-Psycho wrote:

Gwen Smith wrote:

If you want to do more damage, consider Piranha Strike (the dexterity-based version of Power Attack). As you move up the fighter chain, you can get Greater Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon Specialization, too.

Love was thinking the same thing as u when i posted. Also i was considering mentioning Piranha strike but it does not work because the Scimitar is not a light weapon sadly.

Face palm. I do know that. I've even complained about it, a lot. Why that piece of information flew out of my head at this moment, I have no idea.

Lol, no worries it happens to every one from time to time.

[Gwen Smith]

Turgan wrote:

I don't think what you have in mind is going to work: no power attack, no THF or even TWF - in the higher levels combat maneuvers become less viable and you just don't do enough damage to be a threat.

I disagree. I've seen combat maneuvers become more viable as the levels progress. Since not all AC buffs apply to CMD and very few characters (NPCs or otherwise) think about their CMD, statistically, maneuvers become more effective as levels go up. Some examples:

The 10th level Aldori swordlord/duelist with Lunge who shut down the evil cleric by disarming the holy symbol, messed up the wizard by taking away the wand of fireball, the wand of lightning bolt, whatever scroll he tried to pull out, and the potion of cure serious wounds. The GM scowled at him all night. For extra fun, this character didn't have Improved Disarm or Improved Steal, so he purposely provoked an AoO with each maneuver. Since nobody wanted to lose their weapon/wand/holy symbol, they took the AoO every time. He sucked up an AoO and hurt the bad guy, every round. (Part of the strategy there is to ready the action to disarm when they take something out so you don't depend on them provoking an AoO.)

The 8th level Tetori grappler who, well, is an 8th level Tetori grappler. Plus 25 to Grapple in the first round, goes up by +5 once the critter is crippled...and the critter has to make a counter-grapple to break out, not rely on CMD. Combat with a tetori in the party looks like this:
Round 1/surprise round: Grapple bad guy.
Round 2: Maintain grapple as a move action then pin automatically as a standard action. Keep him helpless so your friends can coup de gras.
Or Round 3: Tie it up. One bad guy out. Next?
It gets worse at level 10: he can grapple two people at the same time. Most GMs hate, hate, HATE this build.

The 8th level flowing Monk with Improved Ki Throw. Here, Mr. Fighter, let me move this guy from 15-feet away and place him carefully at your feet, prone, so you have your full attack action available. Oh, Mr. Rogue, don't waste your movement getting into flanking: I'll move the bad guy into flanking for you! Oh, did I forget prone? In two more levels, the reposition also provokes an AoO, so Mr. Fighter and Mr. Rogue get a free attack, too.

I can't say anything about past level 12, but in the higher level PFS games I've played/run, maneuver builds can be devastating.

Of course, any build can be devastating if you understand what part the character plays in the group and actually play that part. If you don't want to be the powerhouse, don't be. Be the know-it-all who make every knowledge check and tells the group what to watch out for. Because I guarantee my 10th level THF (2d6+24) is NOT going to make that check!

[Jodokai]

Blueluck wrote:

Why would you say that? Crane Riposte doesn't say anything about the attack being unarmed.

Whoops sorry you're right, I was thinking of Panther Style.

[thulsa_doom]

soupturtle wrote:

I will mirror the suggestion to get power attack. You really need to do some more damage, especially since attacking with your weapon seems to be the main thing you want to be good at (rather than combat maneuvers). Just drop your wisdom to 12 and get that 13 in strength.

I'd also reconsider your thoughts on combat maneuvers...

On both points:

I think you (and others) are correct about boosting STR and decreasing WIS. The more I think about it, the more I see the need for Power Attack to make this build viable. Losing +1 to Will isn't going to break the character.

I have been reading up on combat maneuvers on and off today as time permits and I'm also thinking about working in something -- as you said, it's what LW's are good at.

Thanks to all who have responded! I really appreciate the advice and will consider all of your suggestions carefully.

[thulsa_doom]

Blueluck wrote:

I wouldn't take any monk levels, but I'd still strongly consider Crane Style.

Here's a example of a level 8 human Lore Warden build I like...

@Blueluck...I really dig this build. What did you take for the starting feats here? I will assume Weapon Finesse and Improved Unarmed Strike, at least.

[Blueluck]

thulsa_doom wrote:

Blueluck wrote:

I wouldn't take any monk levels, but I'd still strongly consider Crane Style.

Here's a example of a level 8 human Lore Warden build I like...

@Blueluck...I really dig this build. What did you take for the starting feats here? I will assume Weapon Finesse and Improved Unarmed Strike, at least.

You're right about those two. I believe my other feat at 1st level is Dodge.

[thulsa_doom]

Blueluck wrote:

thulsa_doom wrote:

Blueluck wrote:

I wouldn't take any monk levels, but I'd still strongly consider Crane Style.

Here's a example of a level 8 human Lore Warden build I like...

@Blueluck...I really dig this build. What did you take for the starting feats here? I will assume Weapon Finesse and Improved Unarmed Strike, at least.

You're right about those two. I believe my other feat at 1st level is Dodge.

That's what I would take as well were I to create a Lore Warden similar to your example. Every little bit of AC helps at Lvl 1.

[Jodokai]

There's a trait (that I'm still looking for) that reduces the penalties for Combat Expertise by 1. If that stacks with Crane Style, might be worth a look.

[Gwen Smith]

Jodokai wrote:

There's a trait (that I'm still looking for) that reduces the penalties for Combat Expertise by 1. If that stacks with Crane Style, might be worth a look.

I think you're thinking of "Threatening Defender" from Cheliax, Empire of Devils:

Benefit: When you use Combat Expertise, reduce the number you subtract from your melee attack rolls by 1.

I can't see any reason why it would not stack with Crane Style, which doesn't even affect Combat Expertise in the first place.

[Gallyck]

Kirin Style would be wasted for the Lore Wardden right? At least until its later iterations?

Or would this stack? Bonuses are the same though.

[Blueluck]

Jodokai wrote:

There's a trait (that I'm still looking for) that reduces the penalties for Combat Expertise by 1. If that stacks with Crane Style, might be worth a look.

Crane Style only has an effect on Fighting Defensively and Full Defense. Using combat expertise won't interact with Crane Style.

I'm not certain if you can fight defensively and use Combat Expertise at the same time, but if you can, then Stalwart & Improved Stalwart are better than I thought!